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Case 10: Peritoneal Hematoma | Emoblization: Bleeding and Trauma
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Transcript

This is a lady with a mass, tongue mass, just to switch gears. So this is what we were talking about butterfly and things and I agree. It is usually very difficult. This is not a high flow lesion, this are

low flow. And this was bleeding and the lateral side is where it was bleeding a lot. And then it was when her molars were really, that's where she closed your mouth so you had to always deviate her tongue to the right and it was hard for her. And see here's the angiogram and it's totally normal. And basically, I like bleomycin in these vena lymphangiomas or

small capillaries kind of malformations. Bleomycin works really well. It's similar to alcohol it's got a high cure rate but you have to put it in the right place otherwise it will increase all sorts of things. This is her tongue, actually her tongue I did three sessions on her.

On one of them, her tongue swelled, she had protrusion of her tongue and we had to actually put CPAP on her for breathing but we didn't have to intubate her. And it got better. I wanted to show you,

with interest of time on it. >> And that's why you're looking for it. So we may be just cautious but at least the initial treatment we would probably intubate the patient. I think you guys are probably braver than us. A lot of these are around the face, neck, in fact I just got one referred last week that's

that's a poradin and I'm debating. But we generally will get him intubates the first time, because this swelling especially in the tongue, can be unbelievable. And it's not always immediate, either.

Depending on what you're using. So, again, if you're just starting out, so that you don't get side tracked or your referring docs you can play it on the safe side, treat

a little bit of it. But we'll usually get him intubated. But I'm not saying you're wrong, just saying that's how we've done it cause we're chickens >> I agree.

Definitely, make sure that there's good air way protection and that's it, an absolute must.

tip and I'll show an example of that so

right so this is that same lady actually with the malignant melanoma she has a lesion in her liver it's sort of the circumscribed structure we're in right next to the gallbladder there so we placed the probe actually under

fluoroscopic guidance with combi Ct we have a catheter in the hepatic artery so we're gonna inject some contrast and see what the ablation zone looks like but as you can see with injection of contrast very well

delineated margins on that ablation so I could tell with a lot of reassurance like I said that that we're not burning anything that we're worried about I'd say here's an example we've burnt right up towards the gallbladder but didn't

injure the goal though so that's very very nice to know so that's the benefits of microwave ablation in essentially you can use microwave nearly anywhere people are using a lot in renal and and liver nowadays you can use it in lung although

some issues with microwave is it is painful so if you burn the chest wall with microwave you're gonna know about it afterwards whereas cryo you can do near nerves like in a costal nerves and you do just fine so just a quick summary

is example as I mentioned about doing very large ablation so this is a lady who hadn't malignant melanoma and she

had metastases to liver we basically placed six probes into this mass as you can see there on that CT the image on the right is the appearance of those six probes it's all excited about how many probes I placed in this patient

like it's a game and then I just watched an ablation talk with a guy put 16 in so that didn't really make me feel much better so so we have six probes here and you can see what we what you do when you have lesions that are in the soft

tissues and you're worried about freezing to the skin you can have injury to the skin right essentially frostburn and so frostbite sorry and so what you can do is you can take either a warm glove fill it up with saline and put it

with the fingers amongst the probes so it keeps the skin warm because you don't want to freeze the skin or what people are doing sometimes as well as they've just put some gauze around all the probes and they spray that goes with

warm saline I just take one of those leader bags of saline put it in the microwave for a couple minutes and then just fill fill the bowl up with it and just spray the gauze on that or you can do the glove technique the main idea

here once again is you don't want to get skin injury when you do these and as you can see a pretty sizable ablation around that entire tumor you can even see the lightening sign which is the low attenuation sort of lightening looking

structures within the ice ball which is cracking of the ice ball as you form but you will see what this is immediately after the procedure the patient will have a very hard ice ball under their chest and it takes about an hour

for that to melt so if you notice bleeding off towards or what is perceived as bleeding before you panic you should realize that that ice pole is going to melt and it's going to come out the holes seep out of the holes that you

created so oftentimes if it's sort of a blood tinge fluid that's really just the ice ball melting in the fluid coming out of the the sites that you've punctured

microwave as I mentioned the reason people are switching to microwave is

that it's a very predictable burn right a lot of the companies are coming out with software that will give you an exact definition of what the size of the ablation is going to be like and that's very reassuring for the physician if

they're gonna put the probe direct it at some sort of structure they don't want to injure having an exact prediction of what that's gonna look like is very very reassuring so that's why a lot of people are going towards microwave it's very

quick there's no grounding pad issue there's no charring there's no heat sink it's ten minutes essentially the disadvantages is it's a hammer right so when you put it in you

turn it on you're getting a powerful burn so if you if you've got it somewhere wrong like it's up against the diaphragm or something like that you are gonna burn that structure so you just have to be careful with that and once

again the main property there is if you point the probe towards the structure you don't want to damage whatever it is you're unlikely to damage that structure because it will not propagate beyond the

terms of imaging my favorite aspect of cryoablation is the fact that you can see the ice ball very well on CT and most procedures are done with CT guidance right so as you can see this is

a renal ablation the probe has been placed you can see the ice bowl forming around the probe right so that's very predictable you can see exactly where it is the only problem with cryoablation is that that ice bowl is not

necessarily the lethal ice ball right so that maximal ice ball is really your zero Degree and in actual fact the lethal zone is about five millimeters in from that so anytime you do a cryoablation you want to weigh over

freeze essentially to get those margins that you want so that's one important thing to remember the ice ball is not the lethal it's really five millimeters short of that okay so a little more information by cryoablation you don't

have to spend too much time on this but the idea is that the more energy you put in the larger ice ball you can get and so essentially more probes you place can just supplement that energy to increase the size of the ice ball so advantages

- These are my disclosures. So I'd like to just highlight first the Einstein PE DVT study. And just to tease out the cancer population, yeah, it this study. So as you can see, the cancer group, small in number with the rivaroxaban

versus the low molecular weight heparin and warfarin. And you can see the incidence of VTE in that population and the hazard ratio. And then bleeding, of course also once again, a small number of patients with a

you can see the incidence of bleeding in this patient population as well. Also like to take the AMPLIFY trial with apixaban and just tease out the cancer population. Little smaller in this group. As you can see, 81 patients in the apixaban group

and 78 in the enoxaparin warfarin group. And you can see the incidence of VTE in this cancer patient population. And I put side by side here the bleeding risk in each of the groups. As you can see, 2.3 and 5.0

in the patients getting enoxaparin and warfarin. The Hokusai study then was published, and this was in New England Journal and Medicine this past year. And this looked at low molecular weight heparin and then edoxaban, and then of course, dalteparin.

200 units per kilogram for the first month and then dalteparin. Clearly showing, looking at this population and looking at outcome. So let's look at recurrence rate in the edoxaban versus dalteparin.

And you can see it's 6.5 versus 10.3% direct comparison. And major bleeding was 6.3% in the edoxaban group and 3.2% in the patients getting dalteparin. The next study that came out looking at the DOACs, this was the SELECT-D trial. And in this trial they looked at rivaroxaban

versus dalteparin once again over a six month period. And what did they find in this study? They found that 11% recurred in the dalteparin group versus 4% in the patients receiving rivaroxaban. The major bleeding incidence was 6%

in the patients getting rivaroxaban and 4% in the patients getting dalteparin. So you can see that the DOACs maybe have a place in this patient population, so that they might be effective. And finally the ADAM study, which will be published soon,

just similar to the rivaroxaban study. Looking at apixaban versus dalteparin. Same model but we don't have any data on this study at this point in time. So the 2018

NCCN Guidelines and the ISTH guidelines of 2018, both show and list now that the DOACs can be part of the process of treating patients with cancer and DVT. So yes, I believe DOACs are ready for prime time. Selection is based on the cancer and cancer is important. Accepting the risk of bleeding as you saw.

We must consider concomitant chemo therapy and the ability to tolerate oral anticoagulants. Thank you very much.

my last case here you have a 54 year old patient recent case who had head and neck cancer who presents with severe bleeding from a tracheostomy alright for some bizarre reason we had two of these

in like a week all right kind of crazy so here's the CT scan you can see the asymmetry of the soft tissue this is a patient who had had a neck cancer was irradiated and hopefully what you can notice on the

right side of the screen is the the large white circles of contrast which really don't belong there they were considered to be pseudo aneurysms arising from the carotid artery all right that's evidence of a bleed he was

bleeding out of his tracheostomy site so here's a CTA I think the better image is the image on the right side of the screen the sagittal image and you can see the carotid artery coming up from the bottom and you can see that round

circle coming off of the carotid artery you guys see that so here's the angiogram all that stuff that is to the right to the you know kind of posterior to the right of the screen there it doesn't belong there that's just

contrast that's exiting the carotid artery this is a carotid blowout we'll call it okay just that word sounds bad all right so that's bad so another question right what do you want to do here

I think embolization is reasonable but probably not the thing we can do the fastest to present a patient to treat a patient is bleeding out of the tracheostomy site so in this particular case this is a great covered stent case

alright and here's what it looked like after so we can go right up and just literally a cover sent right across the origin of that pseudoaneurysm and address the patient's bleeding alright

here we have a MRI that shows a lesion in the left kidney sorry I don't have a

pointer here really but you can see the lesion in the medial part of the left kidney there couple probes are placed under CT guidance you can already see the beginning of the formation of an ice ball there this is the second probe you

can see the ice ball forming and there's a good example of the ice ball it's got good coverage of the the lesion as well as a good margin around that cryoablation tends to be less detrimental to the collecting system of

the kidney so some of the concerns when you do renal ablation is that you're gonna cause your read or strictures or urine leaks because you're burning the collecting system essentially with cryoablation you tend not to see that

you don't have to use something called pilar profusion is often right the idea with pilo profusion is you put a small catheter into the ureter and you infuse the kidney with cold saline so that the collecting system stays cold while you

while you burn the tumor well you don't often times have to do that with cryoablation so that's one benefit of it and then this is a one month later scan this is the normal appearance you can see the ablation zone that and the

resolution of the tumor will follow these up for a few years to make sure that all that tissue goes away and this

about with cryoablation if you put the probes in and you create an ice ball and then you try and pull those probes out you can cause something called organ fracture basically and

essentially the idea is that you've trying to pull an ice ball out of a kidney or the reason you can tear that organ and it can have some pretty substantial complications related to that so once I've placed probes and

started freezing I don't touch them again even if you don't like where they are you don't want to pull them and move them around addition to that at the end of the case I'm always in a rush to get the probes out and you do this act of

thought thing and it's two minutes can I pull the probe I can I pull the probes out in the Reptoids I calm down calm down the idea that if you pull those out too early you can fracture the organ and

then as I mentioned with liver oblation specifically cryo shock was a concern these large liver oblations could cause the patient to become hypotensive going to di C raspberry compromise it was a big deal in the early studies and so a

lot of people stop doing cryo for liver now you're seeing a little bit of a resurgence of that but most still will do microwave for liver ablations

improvement so this is an example that we've treated at Michigan us a 67 year old female patient who has CTF she's gone through sort of a treatment she

turned down so she was not a good candidate for surgery because her disease is distally it's in the sub segmental branches so we went back and forth for you actually on this patient when we're

starting our program and decided that she would be the right patient to start she followed instructions she was her disease was severe enough that I was affecting her life she couldn't walk from here to the back of the room she

was on medication she didn't qualify for the surgery so we said she'd be the right wand and so we started with a pulmonary angiogram you can see there's disease it's not the worst patient that you would see because those would be

surgical but well you see those arrow heads there's areas of webs there's areas of occlusions and stenosis so she's got all the different types of pathology morphology would be great for treatment so what we did as we do in all

these cases get a wire across it if we can wreak analyze it we get a wire we never use hydrophilic wires that's actually contraindicated in these so you never use like a glide wire an O and a glide wire you never use a v 18 or any

of those types of wires because those have a higher risk of perforation frequently we actually use coronary wires from the inner from our colleagues in interventional cardiology you cross the lesion and then you balloon it with

a very very very small balloon so you do not want to get aggressive in these patients we start with a two millimeter balloon even if the vessel should be four or five millimeters we always start with the two millimeter balloon and you

can bring them back and do another intervention in a few months at without a larger sized balloon so in this patient we ballooned two branches in the right lower lobe and then this is what it looks like afterwards so you have

improved flow it doesn't look perfect we're not going for perfect we're going for profusion so if you think about that same thing with acute PE you're not going for a perfect image you just want to get perfusion distally and then the

body will figure it out afterwards so

after after years in these patients so I'm gonna kind of change gears here from acute PE to chronic PE and this is actually something that I'm very interested in is actually what happens

in these patients so chronic thromboembolic pulmonary hypertension or CTF which I'm going to say for the rest of the talk because that's a lot easier is really what happens in some patients whose pee never really goes away another

term you may hear is post PE syndrome but that's the same thing essentially so post PE syndrome or CTF occurs in about 3 to 5 percent of patients with acute PE and it's a it's higher in patients with recurrent PE so if patients have some

sort of blood clotting disorder where they keep getting a clot they may get CTF we have no idea as to who is gonna be the patient who's gonna get it so we don't know right now who the patients

are and that's sort of a focus in the cardiology and IR and hematology and sort of worlds to figure out who's gonna get post PE syndrome it's one of the leading causes of pulmonary hypertension and it's really under diagnosed because

patients just don't know so patient has a PE they go through the system they go they get discharged they're alive and well and then they just never recover they're still fatigued they're just really never able to get back to their

life they think it's you know that they have this chronic bronchitis again or common or frequent pneumonia it turns out that they have post PE syndrome or CTF and it's never been diagnosed so CTF has this very complex algorithm and it

involves a lot of different teams but a patient who has PE and clinical suspicion what actually has this walk-test so they walk down a hall which is a known length and it sees how far they can get on a sir

of time and that's the six-minute walk this these patients if they have a positive six-minute walk test which requires no intervention really they go on and have a VQ scan or VQ scan with some other sort of imaging if they's

find if these tests come back with findings suggestive of CTF then they get a pulmonary angiogram in a right heart catheterization for every patient because then you have to make a decision as to what you're gonna do

surgical treatment medical treatment or now an interventional treatment so this is a VQ scan I'm a board-certified radiologist and I am NOT an expert at reading these anymore but what you what you want to look at is that if there are

areas that look abnormal that don't match so in a VQ report you're looking for areas of mismatch which means that ventilate that the that ventilation is happening but there's no perfusion so we're looking for VQ deficiencies this

has a very high sensitivity for PE but not a good specificity it's a lot less radiation exposure than CT but as we all know in a patient who has a VQ scan for a qpe we're really not sure if it's real or not but in chronic PE a VQ is a gold

standard actually at least in the initial diagnosis after that you get a

about RF a is that it was the first

ablation that we came up with all those that used it was first used in 1981 and it was really for the first liver ablation that we did RFA if any of you know about a Bovie knife the idea is the same the modality works the same as a

Bovie knife and still the main modality used in many parts of the world in the United States a lot of people will use it in certain areas but it's it's being slowly replaced by microwave ablation with time so as I mentioned some areas

are still using a fair amount of RF aimost or not I can honestly say that I haven't used much RF a at all I was sort of born into the generation of cryo and microwave places where we do use it or very commonly our Nerada meas for pain

control as well as spine ablations if any of you do the osteo cool system with Medtronic will do kyphoplasty in conjunction with an ablation that would be RFA and then Bowden oblations in conjunction with cement organizations

elsewhere right so in the pelvis if there's metastatic disease to the pelvis and you're going to ablate the lesion and then to cement augmentation the I

so we're just gonna like hop over to the clinic side and kind of discuss how we work up or what are the things we look for when we see the patients in clinic

so a lot of patients are referred to us by urologist so we have to have a urology on board to to better take care of this patient we can't treat this patient you know by ourselves so a lot of patients are referred to us by our

neurology team if they don't have a urologist we have to refer to them to erosions first before we can even work them up or PAE so we won't make sure that patient you know doesn't have any underlying cancer that we know of so we

want to make sure that we check their PSA levels because this high high patient can ask actually I predict a decent progression and actually our risk for acute urinary retention you want to make sure that you get

urinalysis a lot of patience wet with lots is not only due to pph you could also be secondary to UTI or if patient has some type of bladder tumor or bladder disorder so it's kind of good to know to understand some of the lingo

that urology uses so once they see the urologist they do some your dynamic studies and one of the popular ones are these non-invasive studies called euro flama tree and the post-void residual do you offer the Euro excuse me you heard

from a tree usually we will measure the flow rate and the volume of the patients so what they do is they they would pee in this special funnel and the final obviously they go in private but this final is connected to some machine that

can actually measures how fast and how much their voiding and so normally it's about 25 miles per second but if it's anywhere less than 13 to 15 it can suggest obstruction and use the obstructions usually due to BPH some of

us a very low flow rate such as like say less than ten or six you have you want to be a suspicious of some type of you to neutral structure after they do that usually what they'll do is they take a post void residual is basically scan so

they'll put that little probe above the bladder and they'll see how much is left in a bladder if it's 150 that she usually indicates in complete emptying someone who has greater than 200 that may suggest patients having some type of

bladder dysfunction so a lot of its patients to us at least woke up with some type of imaging and the ones that at least our physician selects is the MRI patient do get a CT angiogram which can also evaluate the pelvic Anatomy and

arteries however the process the mr process actually gives a better illustration of the prostate a tissue to see if there's any suspicious for cancer for example you can also display the president atomy and characteristic up

the gland so most patients do get MRI or at least we get them to get MRI to measure the actual volume in literature they will tell you that a patient can get a trance rectal ultrasound but I'm not sure how many

guys in here would like a probe stuck up their butt to get to get their prostate measured so unless you wanted to get pissed at you just supporter I am right so when we see the patient you obviously want to review their HMP more

importantly you'll want to check their comorbidities there's social history whether it is smoke or not because they're gonna that's gonna have an impact on how we stay patients and how you can predict their anatomies

obviously someone's died who is diabetic or who has a history of smoking you could expect for them to have a greater degree of atherosclerosis and again the first thing that we would get the patient why we walked in is we go in

that scoresheet the IPSS score and so that's gonna give us an idea of how bad this symptoms are so if they come in to us with a score of say you know they're mildly symptomatic I'm not sure how much to pee a procedure with would help them

because how much more lower can we get their scores down so a lot of patients we would treat are in the moderate to severe category and their quality of life score should be for the most part will be about three or higher you also

want to make sure the trusted results since this is Andrew Graham procedures you will make sure that they have a pretty decent renal function patients with lots a lot of them may have some degree of renal insufficiency so we have

to be careful make sure we watch that lab value so this is some of the screening criteria that a lot of us may use so patients who I have refractory to medications for the six months someone has a high IPSS core grain 13 or

qualifies score greater than three process volumes gotta be at least 40 grams we sometimes get patients with a high score but they're positive volumes around 30 we usually usually wouldn't treat those

patient because we can't basically treat or shrink the prostate any any lower than that you someone who has an abnormal urine Flo and someone who maybe refractor to medical therapy these are just a list of

exclusion criteria the ones that should my party set out someone who has prostatitis or current approximate infection you definitely want don't want to treat those patients chronic renal failure and relatively maybe coagulation

factors that could be patient dependent sometime sometimes we could optimize them to get this arteriogram procedure and prostate and bladder malignancy also this somewhat also relative we do treat patients with prostate cancer it just

depends on what course of treatment they're on currently so once we had screen the patients and and deemed them to be a candidate we reviewed the patient we review in detail the procedure with the patient so you want

to let them know that it's a our angiogram procedure that will go through the either the growing or sometimes the radio and the procedure itself you can take anywhere from one for one to four hours and sometimes longer depending on

how complicated their arteries feeding the prosthetist more importantly we want to educate them about the side effects okay we have to let them know that a lot of their symptoms might actually worsen during the first few days after the

procedure so if they have the Syria now urinary continence they actually may get really worse especially for the first few days okay we have to go over the complication with the patients that can include a public infection ischemia or

any vessel related complications that pseudoaneurysm or bleeding so we have to basically have a basic knowledge of how do we combat this side effects and these are just some of the list of side effects that

are mentioning or at least we also used a PI radium it helps I guess to numb up the prostate urethra we have to educate the patient that this can change the color of the urine so we always make a note to our patients that if you are

going to take this medication please call us that way we don't kind of shock you and we also know that the change of color is from the pair radium and not from anything else the tripping or oxybutynin

it helps reduce bladder spasm we would normally use it for a patient who go somewhere to Foley our patients would go some Foley tends to have a great degree of bladder spasm Coley's a lot of spatially get constipated for multiple

reasons being better that or they and she is soft and there's also the over-the-counter azem so this is just a sum of the standard medications that we would give all our patients all of them will get about cipro for seven days

we'll give them some type of anti-inflammatory Asia usually is ibuprofen were prescribed 800 a tid if needed anti-acids since it's just to protect your belly or their stomach from the ibuprofen minimum we'll get a stool

softener at least for the first three days or if they got developed loose toast and we would ask them to stop it and the medications for pain that we would get them as Norco just in case and I would say like more than half these

patients don't even need Norco at best they'll probably use ibuprofen you know just to minimize the inflammatory side effects that I get it also helps out with post embolization that sometimes we'll get and I believe so I don't I'm

not sure if I'm messing about post embolization syndrome patient do can get these symptoms and a lot of symptoms can vary they can get some body slug or fever malaise and the degree the symptoms were may bear from patient to

patient and a lot of symptoms are described kind of like a flu-like symptoms and we also want to reiterate a patient that the symptoms are temporary and it should get better over to at least at first week or so so patients on

warfarin we have a lot of patients on warfarin for whatever reason whether they had a recent cardiac intervention we want to assure that we stop those medications at least before the edge ground procedure so it's very important

that you have a good rapport or whoever and have prescribed him the coumadin whether it's a cardiologist or the surgical team and a lot of dissipation may need to be crossover outside like a short-acting

anticoagulation such as Lobo Knox at least in our practice we ask the patient to this condition discontinue your aspirin unless they're you know they have a recent cardiac intervention we may leave it leave them

on aspirin metformin as very important since we did it is a natural procedure we want to at least hold have the patient hold the metformin the morning of the procedure and maybe a couple of days after and someone who are

allergic to contrasts we will make sure that we're prepared to premedicate a patient and also be prepared in case there's a severe reaction and the pre medication as we know will give them some type of a standard metal prednisone

will they'll take it like twelve seven or one hour before and they also gets unbearable and preoperatively or one hour before the procedure and during the clinic we also determine the level of anesthesia so since this procedure

usually takes a long time we always get it with our anesthesia team is just more for patient comfort it's not really for pain okay I couldn't imagine laying a table for several hours at the time so we all shop anesthesia on board just

really for patient comfort so we're just

and then one more example just to sort of illustrate the idea of a heat sink or

a cold sink right so this patient has a mass in their left adrenal gland right next to the aorta it's just anterior to the kidneys so the problem here is if you put a microwave ablation probe right next to the aorta you're likely to burn

the aorta and if you want to point the microwave ablation probe directly at the aorta well there isn't really a good window for that right you would have to go through the kidney you'll go through bowel and on route to getting there so

really I elected to do cryoablation right so that's the mass that's the aorta so you're obviously worried about injuring any order you place two probes into the lesion they obviously are streaking us out right now but that's

the aorta right there so we are four millimeters away from the aorta with these two probes you would think you'd be concerned about damaging it but using that cold sink effect you can see how the ice boss actually carves around the

aorta so you can get a really nice ablation on to that structure with that Waring that you're damaging the aorta or any nearby big vascular structure now that doesn't happen with pancreas if you freeze into pancreas you're going to get

a pancreatitis and if you freeze into bowel your bowel is going to have a perforation so that really just is with blood vessels that you can do that

of all that all the the probes and the modalities I'm sorry so RFA you can have multiple probes the cost is cheap it's quick but the ablation zone is small and you have this heat sink issue the procedural pain is moderate but the best

attribute is that it is cheap so if you don't have a lot of money for ablation RFA is the way to go cryo on the other hand you can put in multiple probes which means you can get just enormous burn

I'm sorry ablation sizes but the time is slow right so you're gonna stand there for a while while the ice forms and freezes and forms again you get a higher risk of bleeding there's a moderate issue of heat sink effect or it's really

cold sink if you will but the procedural pain as I mentioned is is low so you can do with conscious sedation and my biggest benefit of that I perceive with cryo is the ability to visualize that ice ball and then finally microwave

which is the new kid on the block will you can use single or multiple probes depending on the vendor it's it is expensive depending on the probes you use in the vendor that you use but it's very quick as I mentioned 10 minutes

usually you can get a pretty sizable ablation zone size some will advertise up to four and a half centimeters which is pretty good size you don't really want to be doing a whole lot of ablations in most organs if the lesions

more than four and half centimeters so that's very comforting to have that large ablation that's very predictable there's no issue with heat sink but the procedural pain is high so if you want to do microwave you're gonna more than

likely have to use general anesthesia or somehow find a way to mitigate that pain and that's all I have on ablation so there's any questions of entertain them

talk here with something that's new on the horizon believe it or not it was actually on the horizon 20 years ago and then it went away because there were a lot of patients that were treated with a

lot of complications and it's making a resurgence and this is balloon pulmonary angioplasty or BPA for short so this is an intervention which may be feasible in non-operative candidates so I mentioned to the Jamison classification earlier

type 1 and type 2 disease should be treated with surgery again it should be treated is curative but patients with type 2 and a half or 3 disease can be treated with balloon pulmonary angioplasty in the right in the right

frame which means that a surgeon has said I cannot operate on this a medical doctor has said boy they're not going to get better with their medicine let's try something else well this is that something else and that's what involves

everyone in this room so this is these are usually staged interventions with potentially high radiation and contrast dose if you think about it it's like Venis recan and a pulmonary AVM all-in-one so it's a potentially a long

complex procedure with a lot of contrast and a lot of radiation but it can provide a lot of benefit to these patients I'm going to talk about the comp potential complications at the end which is one reason why not

everyone should do these all the time so this is a pulmonary angiogram from the literature when you're injecting a selective pulmonary artery you can see that this patient has multiple stenosis there's no real good flow there the

vessels look shriveled up like I mentioned to you before you can get a balloon across it and balloon the areas and then you can see afterwards so the image a on the left is before an image D is afterwards believe it or not this are

in the most experienced hands because the most experienced hands are for palm the BP AR in Japan they do hundreds of cases of these a year at each hospital I've personally only done five so but this is a something that I'm very

interested in and you can see how how much benefit it has for that patient another way you can see these are the webs and the bands that I mentioned to you earlier so what's interesting is that if you look on the first set of

images on the top and the images on the bottom those are the same patients it's the same view before top rows before and the bottom rows after balloon pulmonary angioplasty so the first image is a pulmonary angiogram where if you kind of

see this there's there's some area areas of haziness those are the webs and bands the image on the the middle is the blown-up views and you can see those areas and then the image on the right is intravascular ultrasound which I use

every day in my practice it's a catheter with an ultrasound on it and when you look at it on the top image image see you can see a lot of thrombus you're actually not seeing flow and on image F on the bottom you're seeing red which is

the blood flow so these patients can actually improve the luminal diameter bye-bye ballooning them you can treat occlusions again image on the left shows you a pulmonary artery with a basically an occlusion proximally and then after

you reek analyze it and balloon it you can see that they can get much more

from our acute to chronic again just to recap this patient had what was

confirmed categorized as intermediate high risk PE for many of the reasons that you can see here so again here's their scan showing that there's thrombus in the left and right pulmonary arteries here's an echo that showed that the

patient had right ventricular strain and that had an enlarged right ventricle so this patient got a pulmonary artery Graham you can see here there's thrombus you basically don't see contrast going past the main pulmonary artery on the

right or the left sorry I didn't have the DSA images so we check we put a pulmonary artery catheter we do some initial runs and get pressures and then afterwards we put wires into the main pulmonary arteries ideally we try to go

down into the lower lobe so you get the most bang for your buck and have throw-up I have TPA infusing in the area that has the most rhombus and then we in this case placed eCos catheters and you can tell whether catheters Annie Coast

catheter not because of the little hash marks one thing that's important to notice is that the hash marks don't go all the way to the end the first time I need to Nicko's catheter I didn't know that and I was like I think the wire is

too short that's inside of it but it actually is short by a few centimeters the patient came back 24 hours later you can already see that there's an improved profusion in the left lung all the way distally and then in the right lung you

can also see improved perfusion so they're still thrombus they're in the right lower lobe again we're not going for a perfect picture what we're going for is the patient to be better and their pulmonary and the right

ventricular pressures to be improved if the pressure is reduced about 20% I think most interventional radiologists will say that that's a successful procedure but more importantly what I'd like to

see is that the patient is no longer on pressors they're no longer requiring a high amount of oxygen they can be extubated they say that they don't have any more chest pain they're able to talk better all of those clinical factors

that we sort of sometimes don't think about those are signs that the patient is doing well and that maybe that's not worth the risk of continuing giving him the TPA so this is a follow-up scan on this patient showing that pretty much

all the thrombus is gone so what happens

PE the first one of course is

anticoagulation so heparin and bridging the patient to coumadin or now aid a direct oral anticoagulant is really the mainstay of treatment most patients again 55 percent of patients with PE have low risk PE all of those patients

should be on according to the chest guidelines three months of anticoagulation so they're gonna get heparin as an inpatient if they even need it and they're gonna get sent home on lovenox bridge to coumadin or they're

gonna get the one of the new drugs like Xarelto or Eliquis but here's all the other things that we do so these patients that are in the intermediate high risk so I'm gonna try to keep saying those terms to try to kind of put

that in everyone's brain because I think the massive and sub massive PE is what everyone used to talk about but we want to keep up with our colleagues in cardiology who are using the correct terminology we're gonna say high risk

and an intermediate but in those patients - intermediate high risk or Matt or the high risk PE patients we're gonna be treating them with systemic thrombolysis catheter directed thrombolysis ultrasound assisted

thrombolysis and maybe some real lytic and elected me or thrombectomy there's other techniques that we can use for one-time removal of clot like rotational and electa me suction thrombus fragmentation and then of course

surgical mblaq t'me so when anticoagulation is not enough so I like to show this slide because it shows the difference between anticoagulation and thrombolysis they are very different and sometimes I think everybody in this room

understands the difference but I think our referring providers don't and so when we when we get consulted and we recommend anticoagulation they're like yeah TPA well that's not the right thing so anticoagulation stops the clotting

process so when you start a patient on a heparin drip they should theoretically no longer before new thrombus on that thrombus so when you have thrombus in a vessel you get a cannon you get a snowball effect more

and more thrombus is gonna want to form heparin stops that TPA however for thrombolysis actually reverses the clouding process so that tissue plasminogen activator or streptokinase or uro kindness will actually dissolve

clot so there you're stopping new clot forming versus actually dissolving clot anticoagulation allows for natural thrombolysis so your body has its own TPA and so when you put a patient on heparin you're allowing your natural

body defenses to work you're giving it more time TPA accelerates that process so you give TPA either systemically or through a catheter you're really speeding up that process anticoagulation on its own has a

lower bleeding risk you're putting a patient on heparin or Combe it in it's it is less but it is still real thrombolysis however is a very very high bleeding risk patients when I when I consult a patient for thrombolysis I

tell them that we are about to do give them the absolute strongest blood clot thinning agent or an reversal agent which is the TPA and we're gonna just run it through your veins for hours and hours

um and that sort of gives them an idea of what we're doing anticoagulation in and of itself is really not invasive you just give it through an IV or even a pill thrombolysis however is given definitely through an IV through

systemic means and a large volume there thereafter or catheter directed so again

that was one example so these are there have a lot of potential complications reperfusion pulmonary edema is a very very big potential complication so you could get through the case patient does

great you open up multiple pulmonary arteries and then they start coughing up blood and then they end up started drowning in their own blood and the ICU so we do not want to push that and the initial papers that you can see down

below on that table they had a very high almost 10% in some cases pulmonary edema requiring treatment requiring patients being put on CPAP or being intubated and that is because they treated too much at one time

and so now as this when this first started in the early 2000s the operators were treating multiple segments at multiple times at one time and they were using large balloons and we figured out that that was what was killing patients

and so we changed our treatment so this is the first study that was ever performed for this it was performed by dr. Feinstein I believe this was published in circulation it was done in Harvard at MGH they had 18 patients with

36 month follow-up they all improved in their ability to walk as well as their lifestyle but many of them 11 out of 18 patients had reperfusion injury so this was the first paper and at that time it became the last paper because so many

patients did poorly but here's what they're sort of what they did and the ones that did okay they you could see that they had an improvement in the New York Heart Association classification again that just means they can walk

further they're not less short of breath and that they could walk further in 6 minutes which is again our sort of first test outcomes over time whence this has become increased so you can see that study was in 2001 and then

it kind of went away for a long time and it came back in 2012 in Japan where the most operators are there they've treated up to 255 procedures now since this slide was made we're up to a thousand in Japan and those patients are doing very

well but you'll notice that they have multiple procedures so again you don't try to one-and-done these patients they come back four to six times we've treated a couple patients where I work and we've treated that was patients four

times already and so they do much better but it's a slow slow and steady treatment so I want to wrap up with saying that the IR team is very critical to patients who are getting treated for PE we're involved in the diagnosis as

the radiology team acute and chronic PE it's very important to know as I've shown you in some of the examples and some of the images which when it's acute and versus chronic doing thrombolysis on a patient with chronic PE is useless all

you're doing is putting them at a risk you're not going to be able to break up that clot it's very important to have inter and multidisciplinary approach to patient care so interdisciplinary meaning everybody in this room nurses

technologists and physicians working together to take care of that patient that's on your table right now and multi-disciplinary because you have to work with cardiology vascular medicine the ICU teams and the

referring providers whether it's neurosurgery vascular surgery whomever it is who's Evers patient gets a PE you have to work together and it's very important again to have collaborative care in these patients if we're doing a

procedure and somebody notices that the patient is desaturating that's very very important when you're working in the pulmonary arteries if somebody notices that the patient's groin is bleeding you have to speak up so it's very important

that everybody is working together which is really what we need to do for these patients so there's my references and there's my kid so thank you guys very much hopefully this was helpful I'd be

to talk about cryoablation which is very commonly used in a number of organs it can essentially be used anywhere in my opinion with cryoablation as many of you know the different idea is that you have a probe and it creates this ice ball and

that's what's killing the tissues rather than heating the tissue when they first came out with cryoablation they had these really large probes and that really limited what we could do well with technology obviously those probe

size decreased and we were able to do better ablations and safer oblations in patients so it really took off at that point and the general goal once again is to decrease the temperature to about minus 20 degrees Celsius and in doing so

you kill the tissue and we'll talk about the mechanism of how that works the cold spreads Bible directly molecular transfer right so you're starting to cool around the probe and that will propagate to the surrounding tissue

unlike our FA or microwave as the ice ball grows it doesn't impede further ice ball growth right you can continue to build on that ice ball as you increase the amount of argon infused in the increase the number of probes so that's

beneficial and that you can get a massive ablation depending on how many probes you want to place well talk a little bit of how it works so it works by what's called the joule-thompson effect idea here is if any of you've

done cry before you know you have to drag those huge tanks into the room and it just runs through all gone like nothing so when we first started doing cryoablation you had to have an all gone tank and a helium tank they've gone away

with the helium and now you really just need the argon tank which is really nice and that you don't have to drag those tanks around and they're working on actually doing with nitrogen but that hasn't come to fruition yet so the idea

is that you take a high-pressure gas right so it's in the tank it's pressurized it gets run through the center of the probe and then as it comes out the tip will not out the tip of the probe and within

the tip of the probe it goes to low pressure and that change in pressure allows the temperature of the probe tip to cool right and so if you're using argon or oxygen or nitrogen that'll cool if you're using helium it'll actually

heat the tissues and so that's why we used to have argon and helium to be able to to freeze and then actively Thor so as I mentioned the argon comes from a pressurized tank you have this dual chamber probe that allows the gas to

expand and as it expanded pools heat from the surrounding tissues so as many

- You'll be pleased to know we've got a bit better at using ceiling mounted lead shields and goggles, but there's still room for improvement. These are my disclosures. I thought I'd start just by putting into context the exposures that we receive as operators. So medical diagnostics scans

can be anything up to 25 millisieverts. If you're a classified radiation worker you can only get 20 millisieverts per year. Background radiation, depending on where you live, is something between one and 10 millisieverts per year. And it varies from department to department.

But for a complex endovascular branch and fenestrated case you get typically 50 microsieverts of radiation outside the lead. What is irrefutable is that once you get to 100 millisieverts you have got a raised risk of solid cancers and leukemia.

What we do not know, we simply don't know, is what is the dose response below that 100 millisievert threshold, and is there any individual differences in sensitivity to radiation? Why don't we know?

Because we're no good at following up operators and patients after they receive an exposure. What we need is stringent study design, we need well defined populations, they need to be large studies, 10s of thousands, we need to control for

all the confounding factors for cancer, we need really high quality followup, and we need to know what dose we're receiving. This is my interventional radiology colleague. He's been there since the inception of the complex endovascular program at St. Thomas',

and I asked him to tell me what he did over the past 10 years. And you can see that this is his logbook. It excludes quite a number of perhaps lower exposure cases including GI cases, dilatations, nephrostomies. So he's done 1071 cases in 10 years.

He doesn't know his dose. But if you think per case exposure is 20, 40, or 60 microsieverts you can see that the exposures quickly build up. And in a 20-year career he's going to breach probably that 100 microsievert threshold.

So these numbers are just worth thinking about. So what evidence do we have that exposure causes DNA damage? It has been looked at in mice. If you expose mice they have an increased instance of lung tumors, for example. The radiation at low dose causes DNA damage.

It shortens the life span, and importantly, the risk is synergistic with other risks like smoking. In the course of this DNA damage and repair process, the repair process is not perfect. And eventually you get genomic instability,

and that's what causes cancer. When the cell is irradiated with low doses you also get generation of bad factors such as ROS and inflammatory factor. And we have shown in in operators that you get DNA damage before and after

you carry out fluoroscopically guided case. You can see here foci of this gamma H2AX which signal DNA damage in operators. And what happens over long term? There are markers you can look for long term that show that you're exhibiting genomic instability,

and this includes diccentrics. You can see these chromosomes are abnormal, and that happens as result of chronic radiation exposure. And micronuclei, so you can see that these cells express micronuclei. That is abnormal.

That is genomic instability and that means that your risk of cancer is increased. We haven't measured for these yet in operators, but they may well be present. So I think you need a combination of physical and biological dosimetry.

How do you do that? Well you need high throughput methods for doing it, which we don't have as yet. The current methods are laborious. You need to cont lots of cells and it takes a long time to do it.

But perhaps with the next generation high throughout sequencing this is what we'll be doing. Regular samples from operators and deciding whether there exhibiting genomic instability or not, should they be doing something other than carrying out endovascular operations.

In the meantime, radiation is really dangerous. I think that's what we've got to assume. No matter how much of a dose you're getting it's dangerous. The ALARA principles, you should hopefully all be familiar with, maximal shielding, and as mentioned,

the zero gravity suit. We've started using this. And obviously we wear leg shields. Just as something different, I mentioned that when your cell gets irradiated it produces lots of nasty factors

such as radioactive oxygen species and pro-inflammatory factors, and that can again cause DNA damage. Kieran Murphy spoke earlier on in the previous session about effective low-dose exposure. What they've done is given a cocktail of antioxidants

to patients who have cancer staging. And that actually reduces DNA damage. This is another study that came out recently, another cocktail of antioxidants, exposed to cells in vitro that were irradiated, and this is probably a less relevant study

because it's all in vitro. But again, in a very controlled situation these antioxidants do reduce the production of inflammatory factors in DNA damage. So perhaps we should all be taking a cocktail of pills before we operate.

So in summary, we live in a world of increasing radiation exposures. The health effects are unknown. We need better radiation in epidemiology, a combination of biological and physical dosimetry probably, and in the meantime we have to insist

on maximal protection and assume that all radiation is dangerous. Thank you very much.

of cryoablation it's gentler than both microwave and RF a you can use it in a lot of locations because of that you can visualize the ice ball with CT multiple probes means potentially huge ablation zones and I'll show you an example of

that it's not painful and for me I know that I don't know about everyone else in the room but our anesthesia assistance is is very spotty or sporadic so it's nice to do stuff with conscious sedation in which case cryoablation you can

absolutely do most places with conscious sedation it's not painful at all whereas if you've done microwave you know the moment you turn the probe on the patient wants to punch you so so it's not particularly painful you can do it with

sedation and it has this immuno genic response that we're starting to learn more about right so when you cook tissue your since you just cha reverie and you just cook all the proteins and all the membrane of the cell with cryoablation

you actually keep some of the proteins in tact so what happens is as the cell dies your immune response comes in and it recognizes those tumor antigens right those tumor proteins and there's been lots of reports of where you oblate for

instance a renal mass and the patient's lung nodules will regress because of that so that's a very nice feature of it is that's got this immuno genic response and I'll use that often times if I'm doing a lung ablation for instance and

there's other nodules you can see a regression of those nodules the disadvantage as well you need you know there's these repeated freezes right so you do these freeze thaw cycles you go ten fighting you know ten freeze five

for ten freeze five for that ends up being a pretty long freeze time right and even if you do the triple freeze protocol which I can talk a little bit in a bit here you can see it ends up adding up a lot of time so the time you

save on not putting the patient to sleep and getting general anesthesia actually lose on the backend when you're standing and staring at the probes freezing whereas my crew of ablation as me as you know 10 minutes and you're

done there is this idea of a cold sink so like RFA if you put the probe right up against the blood vessel it's unlikely that that ice bowl is going to propagate into that blood vessel and you can use

that to your advantage once again I'll show you an example of that but cold sink is technically also a disadvantage and one of the main things people worry about with cryoablation is the bleeding aspect right so unlike our fa or

microwave you're essentially cooking the tissue it's a Bovie right you're very unlikely to have bleeding whereas cryo you freeze the tissue and when you thought all those blood vessels are now very porous and they can bleed and so

one of the concerns with cryo is that you have bleeding and you you'll often see this especially in renal and long and then do some early studies where where physicians were doing large liver oblations and they were getting into

something called cryo shock which we'll talk about in a little bit that's probably overhyped from the earlier studies but for that reason many people do not use cryoablation in the liver they would prefer to use microwave

let's move on here is another patient who took a fall skiing we see a lot of these patients up in upstate New York and they presented with severe left-sided abdominal pain and here's the cat scan

all right who's up for it what do you think what looks bad you look like you're into it what do you think yeah the right the bottom right-hand side of the picture should be spleen and it just looks like a big pool of blood that's

pretty good you did pretty good spleens a little higher so we're gonna presume spleen is there Graham this is just one image one slice through the picture through the body so we're just not at the level of the spleen but that's the

kidney that's exactly right that white thing on the right side of the image of the patient's left side is the kidney and the one thing I'd like everyone who appreciates that doesn't look at all like the other side all right so when

you look at a cat-scan like this you want to look for symmetry that's really important all right that's the cool thing is we're kind of meant to be similar looking on both sides of our body and in this particular

case you can see that the left kidney has been pushed way forward in the body compared to the right side and there is a kind of a hematoma sitting in the retroperitoneum posterior behind the kidney that's bad

the other thing you should notice is if you look at that left kidney you notice that white squiggly line that doesn't belong there okay that's contrast that's not really constrained inside an artery that's extravagant of

contrast that's bad all right we don't want to see that all right again there's a grading system for renal trauma and you're gonna hear people talk about grade 1 2 3 4 injuries all right obviously as the number gets higher the

extents of the injury gets more significant all right so again here's that picture think you can appreciate that it's at least a grade 4 laceration of the kidney so we went in and we did an angiogram now we can watch these

patients we can surgically manage them by taking out their kidney in some ways that's the easy part excuse me it's a lot more elegant to try and embolize these patients if they're hemodynamically stable and can take you

know getting to angio and doing the case now in general we do embolization for patients with lower grade injuries and usually penetrating injuries a penetrating trauma that's seen on CT I think this is something that's changing

I if any of you work at high-volume trauma centers the reality is that we're doing more and more renal angiography for trauma than we used to because it's just becoming a more accepted thing for us to

be doing that all right so here's the angiogram and again I think you can notice it really correlates very well to what we saw on the CT scan you see that first image on the left and on the delayed image you see that that kind of

poorly constrained contrast going out into space now we were never really quite sure what this was if it was extravasation or if it was potentially an arteriovenous fistula with early filling of a renal vein regardless of

which it's not normal all right so what we did was we went in and we embolized and I only included this picture because I'm a big drawer during cases so when I'm working with a resident or a fellow I like to really

lay out our plan on a piece of paper and try and stick to the plan and this particular picture look really good so I included on the lecture but basically you can see that the coils the goal here for any embolization procedure

when it comes to trauma is to preserve as much of the normal organ as we can and to simply get you know to the source of the bleeding and to get it to stop and that's what we did there so what you can appreciate on this is kind of the

renal parenchyma or the tissue of the kidney is largely maintained you can see the dark black kind of blush within the kidney and all that really stands for properly working kidney all right and yet we embolize the pathology so that's

our goal here's a similar patient not

without question for me I believe

imaging including interventional radiology is the Grand Central Station of health care would you agree with that sound like I'm in the room with people who are not in radiology or interventional or don't understand what

we do every board executive meeting I talk about that to the CFO to the CEO and all of those executive members because they don't understand all they see initially is the costs that imaging in terms of equipment expense our

salaries and all of that right the balance sheet doesn't always tip right and I think that's severely because we don't have a metric to really measure what we do and how it applies to the bottom line so that's my ploy about

Grand Central Station and eventual radiology collaboration do we do that well and I are as any I haven't been out of it that long now our physicians our nurses our techs our schedulers are we more cohesive now is it a well-oiled

machine I'm guessing it's still a little bit of room for improvement on that but the impact that we have all across the service lines is impactful right cardiology nephrology oncology to surgery GI all of the above we

absolutely are Grand Central Station now right of healthcare so in other words our collaboration with the entities that refer to us must be very cohesive and actually I think we must lead it I'm a

bit biased but I think we must lead that collaboration reason being most of the time is just a referral they just want their patient done they want it done as fast as possible right they don't always come in order correctly or preps that's

why we must take an active leadership role in ensuring that that happens by the way we talk about the revenue aspect if there's a few business positions owners managers leaders in their room that's our leverage more sold in

cardiology but we give that leverage away to them so that's why it takes us long to get equipment that's why it takes us longer to increase our staffing level that's why it takes us longer to convince the CFO in the CEO of our need

so that's why I say we need to take a more active role there's no I in team

so that was cryoablation and then the final modality to talk about is

microwave ablation this one should be relatively quick because the idea is pretty simple right this probe is got this electromagnetic energy it's in between the 924 50 megahertz range and basically like RF it causes the water

molecules adjacent to oscillate right so excuse me as you can see it creates this zone or these this this area of electromagnetic activity and all of the water molecules in that area will be activated at once

unlike RF a right so when it's right next to the probe the water molecules oscillate and then the temperature propagates by and by conduction this will essentially create this zone and that

immediately we'll we'll activate those tissues so if you've done microwave ablation you know if you do an ablation of a hundred watts for two minutes you'll get a three centimeter burn it's literally instantaneous as you turn it

on you get this huge burn and then after that anywhere between two minutes and ten minutes you're really only getting about another centimeter of burn and the reason you're doing that is because that's the the passive conduction so it

is very rapid it doesn't have the heat sink issues that RFA does as I mentioned there's this radius of molecules that are activated around the probe the size that radius depends on the wave link and the probe properties there are no

impedance issues so unlike RF a where you want to heat slowly microwave is instantaneous and it just cooks the tissue around the the probe many of the antennas have internal saline perfusion and that's just really to generate

uniform heating and prevent the heat from propagating along the shaft because you obviously don't want it to propagate back towards the skin same ideas are FA right so you want to increase the temperature to greater than 50 degrees

Celsius for about four to six minutes you get coagulation necrosis and you need about a point five a five millimeter margin on that advantages a

happy to take any questions or in

ultrasound we don't usually use contrast but one of the procedures were doing for the treatment management of a pulmonary embolism is the ultrasound assisted Rumble Isis do we need contrast so for the thrombolysis is the catheter itself

so you still need to give contrast two to do the procedure but while the catheter is running you don't need to give any contrast four for that is that what you're we don't usually use contrast for ultrasound but

all right when you're treating how will you know that it sliced the clot is less what you frequently do is check the pressures so that catheter allows you to check the pressure and so once you start a patient so you do a pulmonary

angiogram which requires contrast and you put the ultrasound assisted thrombolysis catheter in the eCos catheter then after 24 hours or 12 hours you can measure a pressure directly through that catheter and if the

patient's pressure is reduced you don't have to give them anymore injections yeah and if we are using ultrasound for treatment is it possible to do it for diagnostic purposes No so not for non the prominent artists for

diagnostic imaging unless you're doing an echocardiogram which is technically ultrasound in the heart but for treatment otherwise you need you will need to inject some dye oh thank you

hi I'm Katrina I'm NGH I have one more question okay for your patients with chronic PE do most of them begin with acute PE or if they very separate sort of presentations that's that's a great question so all of them

had acute PE because you can't have chronic without acute but a lot of them are not ever caught so you'll have these patients who had PE that was silent that maybe one day they woke up and had a little bit of chest pain and then it

went away couple days later they thought they had a bronchitis or a cold and then you find out five years later that they had a huge PE that didn't affect them so badly and then they have these chronic findings they usually show up to their

family practice doctor again with hey I just can't walk as far as I can I have a little heaviness they rule them out from a heart attack but it turns out that they have CTF so you you all of them had a Q PE but it takes a lot of time and

effort to find out whether they truly have chronic PE so it's usually in a delayed fashion thank you all right well thank you guys again appreciate it [Applause]

- Thank you for introduction. Thanks to Frank Veith for the kind invitation to present here our really primarily single-center experience on this new technique. This is my disclosure. So what you really want

in the thromboembolic acute events is a quick flow restoration, avoid lytic therapies, and reduce the risk of bleeding. And this can be achieved by surgery. However, causal directed local thrombolysis

is much less invasive and also give us a panoramic view and topographic view that is very useful in these cases. But it takes time and is statistically implied

and increases risk of bleeding. So theoretically percutaneous thrombectomy can accomplish all these tasks including a shorter hospital stay. So among the percutaneous thrombectomy devices the Indigo System is based on a really simple

aspiration mechanism and it has shown high success in ischemic stroke. This is one of my first cases with the Indigo System using a 5 MAX needle intervention

adapted to this condition. And it's very easy to understand how is fast and effective this approach to treat intraprocedural distal embolization avoiding potential dramatic clinical consequences, especially in cases like this,

the only one foot vessel. This is also confirmed by this technical note published in 2015 from an Italian group. More recently, other papers came up. This, for example, tell us that

there has been 85% below-the-knee primary endpoint achievement and 54% in above-the-knee lesions. The TIMI score after VAT significantly higher for BTK lesions and for ATK lesions

a necessity of a concomitant endovascular therapy. And James Benenati has already told us the results of the PRISM trials. Looking into our case data very quickly and very superficially we can summarize that we had 78% full revascularization.

In 42% of cases, we did not perform any lytic therapy or very short lytic therapy within three hours. And in 36% a long lytic therapy was necessary, however within 24 hours. We had also 22% failure

with three surgery necessary and one amputation. I must say that among this group of patients, twenty patients, there were also patients like this with extended thrombosis from the groin to the ankle

and through an antegrade approach, that I strongly recommend whenever possible, we were able to lower the aspiration of the clots also in the vessel, in the tibial vessels, leaving only this region, thrombosis

needed for additional three hour infusion of TPA achieving at the end a beautiful result and the patient was discharged a day after. However not every case had similar brilliant result. This patient went to surgery and he went eventually to amputation.

Why this? And why VAT perform better in BTK than in ATK? Just hypotheses. For ATK we can have unknown underlying chronic pathology. And the mismatch between the vessel and the catheter can be a problem.

In BTK, the thrombus is usually soft and short because it is an acute iatrogenic event. Most importantly is the thrombotic load. If it is light, no short, no lytic or short lytic therapy is necessary. Say if heavy, a longer lytic therapy and a failure,

regardless of the location of the thrombosis, must be expected. So moving to the other topic, venous occlusive thrombosis. This is a paper from a German group. The most exciting, a high success rate

without any adjunctive therapy and nine vessels half of them prosthetic branch. The only caution is about the excessive blood loss as a main potential complication to be checked during and after the procedure. This is a case at my cath lab.

An acute aortic renal thrombosis after a open repair. We were able to find the proximate thrombosis in this flush occlusion to aspirate close to fix the distal stenosis

and the distal stenosis here and to obtain two-thirds of the kidney parenchyma on both sides. And this is another patient presenting with acute mesenteric ischemia from vein thrombosis.

This device can be used also transsympatically. We were able to aspirate thrombi but after initial improvement, the patient condition worsened overnight. And the CT scan showed us a re-thrombosis of the vein. Probably we need to learn more

in the management of these patients especially under the pharmacology point of view. And this is a rapid overview on our out-of-lower-limb case series. We had good results in reimplanted renal artery, renal artery, and the pulmonary artery as well.

But poor results in brachial artery, fistula, and superior mesenteric vein. So in conclusion, this technology is an option for quick thromboembolic treatment. It's very effective for BTK intraprocedural embolic events.

The main advantage is a speeding up the blood flow and reestablishing without prolonged thrombolysis or reducing the dosage of the thrombolysis. Completely cleaning up extensive thromobosed vessels is impossible without local lytic therapies. This must be said very clearly.

Indigo technology is promising and effective for treatment of acute renovisceral artery occlusion and sub massive pulmonary embolism. Thank you for your attention. I apologize for not being able to stay for the discussion

because I have a flight in a few hours. Thank you very much.

plan as well so I wanted to talk a

little bit about imaging I know with our residents and fellows and radiology that's all we do is talk about the imaging and then when go on to IR we talked to them about the intervention but I think it's important

for everyone in this room to see more imaging and see what we're looking at because it's very important for us all to be doing on the same page whether you're a nurse a technologist a physician or anybody else in the room

we're all taking care of that patient and the more information we all have the better it is for that patient so quick primer on a PE imaging so this is a coned in view of a CT pulmonary angiogram so yeah sometimes you'll see

CTS that are that are set for a pulmonary artery's and you'll see some that are timed for the aorta but if the pulmonary arteries are well pacified you're gonna see thrombus so I have two arrows there showing you thrombus that's

sort of blocking the main pulmonary arteries on the left and right side on the patient's left so the one with the arrow that is a sort of very classic appearance of an intro luminal thrombus you can see a little rim of contrast

surrounding it and it's usually at branch points and it's centered in the vessel the one on the right with the arrow head is really at a big branch point so that's where the right lower lobe segmental branches are coming off

and you can see there's just a big amount of thrombus there you can see distal infarct so if you're looking in the long windows you'll see that there's this kind of it's called a mosaic perfusion but it also what kind of looks

like a cobweb and that's actually pulmonary infarct and maybe some blood there which actually will change what we're gonna do because in those cases freaken we will not perform PE thrombolysis it's also important to note

that acute and chronic PE which we're here to talk about today may look very similar on a CT scan and they have completely different treatment methods so here's a sagittal view from that same patient you can see the CT scan so

between the arrow heads is with the tram track appearance so you'll see that there's thrombus the grey stuff in the middle and you'll see the white contrasts surrounding it and kind of like a tram track and that's very

classic for acute PE and then of course where the big arrow is is just the big thrombus sitting there here's another view of a coronal this is actually on a young woman which I think we show some images on but you can see cannonball

looking thrombus in the main pulmonary arteries very classic variants for acute PE and then this is that same patient in a sagittal view again showing you in the left pulmonary kind of those big cannon balls of

thrombus here's some examples from the literature showing you the same thing when you're looking at an acute PE it's right centered on all the image all the way in the left if the classic thrombus is centered right in the middle of the

vessel you can usually see a rim of normal contrast around it and you can see on a sagittal or coronal view kind of like a thin strip of floating thrombus so the main therapies for acute

patient female patient who has the sudden onset of upper abdominal pain here's the CT we did all these cases in one day it was crazy it was terrible so so here's a big hematoma a big peritoneal hematoma you

can see it anterior to the right kidney you can see the white blob of contrast right in the middle of the hematoma that's a pseudoaneurysm or even active extravagance um less experienced people would probably say it's active

extravagant I think most of us would prefer that it be called kind of a pseudoaneurysm this active extrapolation would be much more cloudy and spread out this is more constrained and you can see on the

coronal image you get a sense that there's that hematoma same type of problem all right is there more imaging that we can do to figure out the next step again I said earlier earlier in this lecture

that sometimes we use CTA now sometimes a CTA is worthwhile I do find that for a lot of these patients I think we're getting smarter and we're doing CTAs right at the beginning of this whole thing you know when a trauma

patient comes in we're getting CTAs so we can max out the amount of information that we get on the initial diagnostic imaging here's what we're seeing on the CTA and in this particular case I think it's pretty clear that you can see the

pseudoaneurysm arising from what looks like a branch of the superior mesenteric artery so this is just an odd visceral and Jake visceral aneurysm which looks like it probably ruptured I don't have an explanation for it led to a big

hematoma here's what that is and now we're gonna do an angiogram the neat thing is it just perfectly correlated with a conventional angiogram so here's our super mesenteric angiogram all right the supreme mesenteric artery

on the first image to the left is that vessel going downward towards the right side of the screen all those vessels coming off are really just collateral vessels going up to the liver through the gastroduodenal artery again that

left one looks pretty good it's not until you see the delayed image on the right that you see that area of contrast all right so that's the finding that correlates with the CT scan all right here we're able to get in there you put

a micro catheter in that vessel alright the key next step for this patient as I mentioned earlier is the whole concept of front door and back door so here we're technically in the front door the next thing that we do is we put the

catheter past the area of injury and now we embolize right across the injury because remember once you embolize one thing flow is gonna change we screw it up body the body wants to preserve its flow if we block flow

somewhere the body's gonna reroute blood to get to where we blocked it so we want to think ahead and we want to say okay we're blocking this vessel how's the body going to react and let's let's get in the way of that happening that's what

we did here so we saw the pathology we went past it we embolized all across the pathology and boom now we don't have anymore bleeding and the likelihood of recurrence is gonna be very low for that patient because we went all the way

across the abnormality and I think from

of you have worked with cryoablation you know they have 12 different types of probes and each probe is a different Ice Bowl that they they mark it as all this

ice force probe creates a very oblong freeze and this ice rod will create a slightly different freezin you can use an ice pearl which is a more rounded freeze and that is that in order to get the length of the ice ball depends

really on the probe insulation so they've insulated the probe prior to even putting it into the packaging and in doing so you can predict the length of the ablation the diameter on the other hand depends on the rate of

transfer of energy right so if you're putting a lot of energy into that you can create a more rounded ice ball to a certain extent what I will point out in any ablation whether it's microwave or cryoablation propagation from the tip of

the needle from their tip of the antenna is what's most controlled right so if you don't want to damage something in general you want to point the needle directly at it it seems like it's counterintuitive but if for instance you

wanted to ablate near the aorta you want to point the needle right at the aorta because it doesn't come very far off the tip of the probe almost everything propagates backwards and to the side and you can't control that as much and so

kryos the same way that one's here so in

something some case examples of where I use cryoablation right so this is a

patient who has a nodule in the in the back of their lungs in the right lower lobe and basically I'll place two probes into that notch on either side of Brackett the lesion and then three months later fall up you can see a nice

resolution of that nodule so when it comes to lung a couple things I'll mention is if the nodule is greater than eight millimeters I'll immediately go to two probes I want to make sure that I cover the lesion whereas microwave it's

pretty rare depending on what device you're using for you to put more than one probe in so some people's concern with cryo in the lung is more probes means more risk of pneumothorax but you can also see surrounding and proximal to

where we did the place you can see the hemorrhage that you see so if those of you out there that are doing the lung ablations you probably have physicians that are using something called the triple freeze protocol right so the

double freeze protocol is the idea that you go ten minutes freeze five minutes 30 minutes freeze five minutes thought well what we saw was lung early on in the studies was a very large ablation a freeze to start with caused massive

hemorrhage patients were having very large amounts of hemorrhage so what we do now in lung is something called a triple freeze protocol we'll do a very short freeze about three minutes and that'll cause an ice ball to form and

then we'll thaw that in other three minutes three minutes of thawr and as soon as that starts to thaw we'll freeze it again and we've shown us a substantial decrease in the amount of hemorrhage so if you're doing long and

you and you you're told to do a double freeze protocol perhaps suggest the triple freeze is a better idea so that's three months later so another example

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