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CAE System (Cyanoacrylate Embolization - VenaSeal)
CAE System (Cyanoacrylate Embolization - VenaSeal)
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How To Treat By EVAR Complex Aorto-Iliac AAAs In Patients With Renal Transplants, Horseshoe Or Pelvic Kidneys: Technical Tips
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Panel Discussion (Session 62) 2018
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Results Of A Multicenter Italian Registry Of Real World CAS With The C-Guard Mesh Covered Stent: The IRONGUARD 2 Study
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Transcript

embolisation or the trade name is Venus seal it is a non-thermal on tumescent technology it comes in a gun and we activate this new all the way ok a gun

that you click each click is a point 1 ml of glue out out of the catheter here and I accesses made all these things obviously accesses made that percutaneously under ultrasound guidance and the way this technology works is you

start five millimeter sana meters from the junction give a point when cc's move down one sonometer give another point one hold pressure for three minutes the initial one up by the junction and then you march yourself

down every 30 centimeters giving another point 1 ml of solution but after your initial holding for 30 seconds at the junction you only worked three minutes at the junction you only hold for 30 seconds at each other interval down the

line not straight it's a relatively quick procedure and you're putting glue but you're not really gluing the veins shut you're causing a inflammatory reaction that ultimately causes vain sclerosis which all these things do

every technology laser radio frequency and all the other ones i'm going to go so don't think you're gluing it you're actually causing a reaction within the main it itself there's been three

- Good morning, thank you, Dr. Veith, for the invitation. My disclosures. So, renal artery anomalies, fairly rare. Renal ectopia and fusion, leading to horseshoe kidneys or pelvic kidneys, are fairly rare, in less than one percent of the population. Renal transplants, that is patients with existing

renal transplants who develop aneurysms, clearly these are patients who are 10 to 20 or more years beyond their initial transplantation, or maybe an increasing number of patients that are developing aneurysms and are treated. All of these involve a renal artery origin that is

near the aortic bifurcation or into the iliac arteries, making potential repair options limited. So this is a personal, clinical series, over an eight year span, when I was at the University of South Florida & Tampa, that's 18 patients, nine renal transplants, six congenital

pelvic kidneys, three horseshoe kidneys, with varied aorto-iliac aneurysmal pathologies, it leaves half of these patients have iliac artery pathologies on top of their aortic aneurysms, or in place of the making repair options fairly difficult. Over half of the patients had renal insufficiency

and renal protective maneuvers were used in all patients in this trial with those measures listed on the slide. All of these were elective cases, all were technically successful, with a fair amount of followup afterward. The reconstruction priorities or goals of the operation are to maintain blood flow to that atypical kidney,

except in circumstances where there were multiple renal arteries, and then a small accessory renal artery would be covered with a potential endovascular solution, and to exclude the aneurysms with adequate fixation lengths. So, in this experience, we were able, I was able to treat eight of the 18 patients with a fairly straightforward

endovascular solution, aorto-biiliac or aorto-aortic endografts. There were four patients all requiring open reconstructions without any obvious endovascular or hybrid options, but I'd like to focus on these hybrid options, several of these, an endohybrid approach using aorto-iliac

endografts, cross femoral bypass in some form of iliac embolization with an attempt to try to maintain flow to hypogastric arteries and maintain antegrade flow into that pelvic atypical renal artery, and a open hybrid approach where a renal artery can be transposed, and endografting a solution can be utilized.

The overall outcomes, fairly poor survival of these patients with a 50% survival at approximately two years, but there were no aortic related mortalities, all the renal artery reconstructions were patented last followup by Duplex or CT imaging. No aneurysms ruptures or aortic reinterventions or open

conversions were needed. So, focus specifically in a treatment algorithm, here in this complex group of patients, I think if the atypical renal artery comes off distal aorta, you have several treatment options. Most of these are going to be open, but if it is a small

accessory with multiple renal arteries, such as in certain cases of horseshoe kidneys, you may be able to get away with an endovascular approach with coverage of those small accessory arteries, an open hybrid approach which we utilized in a single case in the series with open transposition through a limited

incision from the distal aorta down to the distal iliac, and then actually a fenestrated endovascular repair of his complex aneurysm. Finally, an open approach, where direct aorto-ilio-femoral reconstruction with a bypass and reimplantation of that renal artery was done,

but in the patients with atypical renals off the iliac segment, I think you utilizing these endohybrid options can come up with some creative solutions, and utilize, if there is some common iliac occlusive disease or aneurysmal disease, you can maintain antegrade flow into these renal arteries from the pelvis

and utilize cross femoral bypass and contralateral occlusions. So, good options with AUIs, with an endohybrid approach in these difficult patients. Thank you.

- I have nothing to disclose but what I will tell you is that the only way for me to learn the mechanics of treating low-flow malformations has been to learn from Wayne, follow what he's doing, and basically what I've done is I've filmed every single step he's taking,

dissect that, and then present you the way that he's doing it. The best way to do that is not listen to Wayne, but to film him, and just to check that afterwards. And he goes regularly to Cairo, this is the place of Dr. Rodovan sitting here

in front of us, and with Dr. Alaa Roshdy. I've learned a lot there from Wayne. This is Wayne's techniques, so normally if you look at puncture, the low flow malformations here then you get return or you aspirate so this is what happens, they inject contrast then they find volume

and inject whatever agent you prefer to inject. It happens to be alcohol but that is not essential. More often than not, there is no return. What to do then? There is a technique that Wayne has developed. Stab-Inject-Withdraw, just under high modification inject,

identify that you're not outside the vessel, get the vessel, start to fill slowly, and identify that and inject the alcohol. Of course you can do that under exposure just to see the effect of the alcohol thrombosing, et cetera.

Another example of no return is to subcutaneously certainly show that there is a low pressure system, and again, Stab-Inject-Withdrawal, and there is a cyst. Is it extravasation or is the malformation aspirate? And if it collapses, that's the malformation.

And then continue to fill in with contrast, define how big the malformation is, and then accordingly inject the amount of abrasive agent that you're using. Lymphatic malformation is very difficult to treat because the vessel's so small, would say microscopic,

and again, Stab-Inject-Withdraw, identify that it's not extravasating but it is the vessel, and start slowly, slowly to fill and any time in doubt that should there, just do a run, identify, and that is the vessel, or the network of the vessels and

start to fill that with the agent you're using. But there are certain zones that just don't inject anything, and these are the arteries. How often do arteries occur? When you puncture them. I just directly looked at all these 155 patients I've seen Wayne treat there a matter of,

I would say, 100 patients in three days. 30 patients per day, that's about six percent. And you see the artery by pulsating flow depending on the pressure that you apply. And we see again the artery pulsating and we have no doubt about that.

However, it could be difficult to see. Depending on how much you push in the contrast and you see these being ornery so there's a No-Go-Zone, no injection of any agent and again, a tiny bit of lottery there in the foot could be disastrous.

You inject any agent, any, you will have ended up with necrosis of course if you don't inject inhibitors, but not yet. The humorous may not end up with necrosis when all the mysticism with puncture will be gone. So we have extravasation, when you say extravasation

like starting injecting, still good, looking good, but you see how the extravasation even blows up and at the end it bursts, again under pressure they should apply, so pressure is really important to control and then you stop and don't inject any more.

Extravasation, you see how its' leaking in the back there, but you correct the position of the needle, identify all the vessels, the tiny little vessels, just have to be used to identify the pattern and then you start to inject the agent again.

Control is very essential. Here is the emphatic malformation labia and though there is this tiny little bity extravasation you continue because there is you know, run-off, it is filling the system and you can safely inject the alcohol.

Intraarticular could be malformation there and this is definitely safe pla however, if it is in the free space in the the joint, that's again, it's No-Go-Zone. How you see that is just be used to

the pattern recognition and you find that this is free. It's around the condyle there so there is no injection. Compression is again good to note to control by compression where the agents go. This is a normal vein, certainly at risk of getting with alcohol, whatever agent

you're using deep in the system, avoid that by compression. Compression can be applied manually and then that gives you a chance to fill the malformation itself and not strike connection too deep in the system. Intraosseous venous malformation,

low-flow malformations can occur anywhere, here in the spine and the axis is transpedicular patient prone because it's soft. The malformation has softened up the bone. You can just use a 21-gauge needle and identify the malformation and follow

by the agent you're using. Peculiar type of venous malformation called capillary venous malformation. Basically it's a low-flow malformation without any shunt here in the sciatic notch of the patient and geography shows that there is no shunt

there is just big veins and intense pacification. And identify the veins by indirect puncture again, see the pattern of that and inject alcohol and following geography we can see that there has decreased the density but it is a lot more left to be done.

In conclusion, direct puncture is the technique in this low-flow malformation but Stab-Inject-Withdraw is the really helpful technique for successful treatment of microvascular, microcystic lesion. No-Go-Zones for certain when you see arteries

and anytime in doubt you just have to do a run to identify if they're arteries or not. Intraarticular free space and extravasation and normal veins, similarly, No-Go-Zone. Capillary venous, intraosseous malformations can be treated successfully. Thank you.

(audience applause) - [Facilitator] Thank you, Crossey. Excellent talk, very practical and pragmatic. Any comments or questions? Dr. Yakes. - [Dr. Yakes] We have been to many meetings and people have talked about doing

other ultrasound guides, accessing the malformations. You'll never see those arteries by ultrasound. - [Facilitator] That's absolutely correct. I concur. I concur and I think some of the disasters we've seen where suddenly something falls off

have been in these situations because they don't understand or in expansile foam-based therapies, I've seen that. I've seen plenty of these, so it's always present, potentially.

- Thank you. Historically, common femoral endarterectomy is a safe procedure. In this quick publication that we did several years ago, showed a 1.5% 30 day mortality rate. Morbidity included 6.3% superficial surgical site infection.

Other major morbidity was pretty low. High-risk patients we identified as those that were functionally dependent, dyspnea, obesity, steroid use, and diabetes. A study from Massachusetts General Hospital their experience showed 100% technical success.

Length of stay was three days. Primary patency of five years at 91% and assisted primary patency at five years 100%. Very little perioperative morbidity and mortality. As you know, open treatment has been the standard of care

over time the goal standard for a common femoral disease, traditionally it's been thought of as a no stent zone. However, there are increased interventions of the common femoral and deep femoral arteries. This is a picture that shows inflection point there.

Why people are concerned about placing stents there. Here's a picture of atherectomy. Irritational atherectomy, the common femoral artery. Here's another image example of a rotational atherectomy, of the common femoral artery.

And here's an image of a stent there, going across the stent there. This is a case I had of potential option for stenting the common femoral artery large (mumbles) of the hematoma from the cardiologist. It was easily fixed

with a 2.5 length BioBond. Which I thought would have very little deformability. (mumbles) was so short in the area there. This is another example of a complete blow out of the common femoral artery. Something that was much better

treated with a stent that I thought over here. What's the data on the stenting of the endovascular of the common femoral arteries interventions? So, there mostly small single centers. What is the retrospective view of 40 cases?

That shows a restenosis rate of 19.5% at 12 months. Revascularization 14.1 % at 12 months. Another one by Dr. Mehta shows restenosis was observed in 20% of the patients and 10% underwent open revision. A case from Dr. Calligaro using cover stents

shows very good primary patency. We sought to use Vascular Quality Initiative to look at endovascular intervention of the common femoral artery. As you can see here, we've identified a thousand patients that have common femoral interventions, with or without,

deep femoral artery interventions. Indications were mostly for claudication. Interventions include three-quarters having angioplasty, 35% having a stent, and 20% almost having atherectomy. Overall technical success was high, a 91%.

Thirty day mortality was exactly the same as in this clip data for open repair 1.6%. Complications were mostly access site hematoma with a low amount distal embolization had previously reported. Single center was up to 4%.

Overall, our freedom for patency or loss or death was 83% at one year. Predicted mostly by tissue loss and case urgency. Re-intervention free survival was 85% at one year, which does notably include stent as independent risk factor for this.

Amputation free survival was 93% at one year, which factors here, but also stent was predictive of amputation. Overall, we concluded that patency is lower than historical common femoral interventions. Mortality was pretty much exactly the same

that has been reported previously. And long term analysis is needed to access durability. There's also a study from France looking at randomizing stenting versus open repair of the common femoral artery. And who needs to get through it quickly?

More or less it showed no difference in outcomes. No different in AVIs. Higher morbidity in the open group most (mumbles) superficial surgical wound infections and (mumbles). The one thing that has hit in the text of the article

a group of mostly (mumbles) was one patient had a major amputation despite having a patent common femoral artery stent. There's no real follow up this, no details of this, I would just caution of both this and VQI paper showing increased risk amputation with stenting.

Thank you.

- Thank you very much, thank you Cees, that was really interesting, it's um, it's a topic close to my heart and I think that there's a great deal of work about pneumatic compression that we can learn from. These are my disclosures. Your stent choice, well,

we talk an awful lot about stents, but it is really only one part of the entire spectrum of factors that get it right. And when you get it right, you have an open vein and we believe that the open vein works, although the open vein hypothesis

seems somewhat compromised, considering where it came from in terms of open arteries. But your stent choice is just one of the factors that goes into it, and your inflow, and your outflow generally we can improve upon. Your muscle pump we'd like to improve

by using pneumatic compression boots, and then obviously getting your anti-coagulation right, as Dr. Weinberg explained, is really really key afterward. So, stent choice is one of the aspects, but it's certainly not the only aspect. You're familiar, and probably sick of these diagrams

showing the differences between radial force, crush resistance, and the trade-offs between stent flex, strengths, rather, and when I use strength it's a fairly generic term, and flexibility. And obviously in Europe, we have access to a wide variety of stents.

The Cook Zilver Vena first came out in 2010. Bard Venovo was, I think, 2016. The ABRE was just last December, but it's commercially available. The Optimed Sinus-Venous has been around for quite some time, I'm going to say 2011 if I'm correct.

And the Sinus Obliquus, then it was a little bit later, maybe 2014, 2015, and for those of you who haven't seen this before, this has got a, a closed-cell design at the top which is quite rigid, if I may, and then a very flexible sinus,

or rather open-cell design at the inferior portion, the top portion is angled to address the IVC confluence. And then the Veniti Vici, which is, (coughs) excuse me, was extensively studied in the VIRTUS trial, and this is a more closed-cell, but there's still a considerable flexibility.

So, like everything else in life, you know, you can go for the old broad who's got loads of money, or you can go for the young hot chick, and you know, she's broke. And you know, life is like that, and stents are like that too.

You know, what you get in one you lose in the other. And like a lot of the other things, you have to get everything right to make the stent work. That analogy certainly does not apply to women. But the closed-cells generally have higher force but they're slightly more rigid.

The open-cells are, perhaps, slightly weaker, but there's infinite varieties of imaginations and changes that can be made to those two very generic statements. For instance, in the newer stents, if you cut off a larger, laser cut a Nitinol tube,

you will intrinsically get thicker struts, and therefore slightly larger sheath size, but ultimately slightly more strength at the expense of slightly less flexibility. I think for me, the thing that I've learned the most about the newest venous stents,

or using the newer venous dedicated stents, is that you must do very aggressive balloon dilatation pre and post, that's absolutely essential. Regardless of what stent you use. And I'm horrified to see some of the Twitter handles of people using pre-dilatation

with an eight millimeter balloon, then putting in a 20 millimeter Wallstent and then ballooning it again to 14. Absolutely no logic to any of that. So I think you should balloon to the nominal diameter of the stent.

And it is interesting that you get a much higher force when you get that stent to the nominal diameter. The actual physical properties of the stent change when it hits that diameter. So not getting to the diameter of the stent is a huge mistake.

Now, do fractures really matter? We've been looking extensively at this in a variety of the different trials, and it's hard to know. Certainly, luminal reduction does. Fractures, not so sure about. Fractures sound like they're easy to diagnose.

They're actually very difficult. And compression at the inguinal ligament, is it real? It seems to be real. It seems to be more real than I certainly believed, in a certain proportion of patients. Typically skinnier ones, in my experience,

again, skinny females. Flexibility is obviously a big, big issue, and when you think of where your knee goes in relation to your shoulder if you're doing your yoga class, or anything else for that matter, tying your shoelaces,

there's a lot of bend required. And if you think of where we are now in aortic stent grafting compared to where we were when I last had hair, everything has changed. All of the devices have changed.

We went from Ancure, which had 64 steps, through AneuRx, and now, you know, things have moved on way past 2010 as well. So, in terms of my choices, in the USA you've got two choices, you got Wallstent and Z stent.

And if you got a rupture, use a Gore or something like that. In Europe, it's a much more, nuanced and challenging to try and figure out which ones you do. And these are just my choices. Is there any evidence to back them up?

None whatsoever. Have I had problems with most of the stents? Yes. Most of those problems were probably self-induced. I've certainly learned that pre-dilatation and post-dilatation are the essentials.

And flexibility is a lot more important than I would've thought if you had asked me five years ago. Thank you very much.

- Thanks a lot for again for inviting me because you know, (laughs) I'm in very hostile territory, (audience laughs) but, I will tell you the truth now, (audience laughs) and being in hostile territory and telling the truth can

be totally different things and I, I'm also never in any way, you know I'm totally scientific type, I will never be polemic, like you are. (audience laughs) Okay, so let's start with the truth, start with the truth, I show you two typical cases, this is a typical ethanol case

here with couple of, it was successful, at least in losing it's toes, and I'll show you another example again, a foot AVM, this is one session, one session, in fact its 14 vials of squid in this case, and it's done. so, this is not statistic, but I always

see, and I've seen it today in a couple of talks, Onyx used as glue. And that doesn't work, you have, if you start to treat a patient, you have to really treat him and it's not something you inject, and that it's gone, you have to fill all the AV shunts, you have to fill the whole lesion.

And if you don't do it, of course you see a lot of failed on ex-patients and if its used improperly, and that's the only thing I, I wouldn't say I agree with you, I would say I'm thinking in the same direction, yeah, that's if you use Onyx in the wrong way, you have a very good chance to make thing worse.

So, its a technical thing, and if people start to use Onyx, and they inject something, and then its something like putting in some coils, that's not worthwhile, it makes no sense to include some arterial feeders, we know this since, I think more than 20 years, it's like making a surgical ligation of the feeding

artery, it's totally senseless. You have to completely occlude the area of the arteriovenous shunting, apart from the predominantly venous one, where you can just occlude the venous outflow, by whichever thing you use, and the area of arteriovenous shunting is always bigger than you see it in a normal DSA,

because the blood does the same as the contrast medium does, it flows along the route of the least flow resistance. And so, at the end, if you want to be sure that you have to completely occluded the AVM, you will end up with a cast which is much bigger than what you see at the beginning of a DSA, yep, it was agreed, see.

- [Audience Member] You know I'm shaking my head as you talk. - Yeah, yeah, your getting tired. (laughs) Here we go, So, and this is only the really scientific slide in my talk, because when people die when you inject ethanol

in vascular malformation treatment, its something, its banal, all of us have seen it many times, but there was a scientific question, why do people die on the table if you inject ethanol in AVM treatment on vascular malformation treatment? And there's one scientific publication here, because we

all thought do they die because of complete vasoconstriction in the pulmonary arterial system, or is it, are they dying due to the thrombi? That, you know ethanol, it uses small slatch or big thrombi and they go to the pulmonary circulation and they die. So, is it the vasospasm, induced by ethanol, or is it the

thrombi induced by ethanol, that they die is clear. So, there was a very nice publication out there in 2012, was presented in Malibu, at the IFSA meeting, it was about four patients, which three of them died, two were just after injecting of between five and 12 milliliters of ethanol, one was a direct puncture pelvic AVM, and it was caused,

that this was nicely stated there, it was caused by multiple small peripheral emboli. So it's not vasospasm that kills the people, it's the thrombus, and I think this was a very very worthwhile contribution to all our knowledge and really thank you Bob for this paper, thank you

very much, now we know why they died. I haven't, unfortunately I can't contribute to this discussion with Onyx because there wasn't any patient dying on the table during my embolization's and I've done now, we're preparing the paper of 160 AVM patients with I don't know, 400 sessions and well maybe if we wait

40 years more, 50% will have died but, (audience laughs) from natural cause, so I can tell you again this is the truth, we will talk about the truth here, and this is, ethanol can be worthwhile even in AVM's, I don't deny that and maybe it will have its place for a couple of more years

before we do Onyx and MEK1-Inhibitors, so there is for couple of more years, this is a role for ethanol, but it's somewhere deep down there, and this is a slide I show for the third time now just for you Wayne, please and I show it because you should start to publish your classification.

I didn't use it because there is no paper there, please publish it then I will always classify according to your classification. - [Audience Member Cheers] - Thank you for your attention, thank you for giving me the chance to talk about the truth here in this seminary

and please don't do anything stupid with ethanol.

Thanks very much, Tom. I'll be talking about thermal ablation on anticoagula is it safe and effective? I have no disclosures. As we know, extensive review of both RF and laser

ablation procedures have demonstrated excellent treatment effectiveness and durability in each modality, but there is less data regarding treatment effectiveness and durability for those procedures in patients who are also on systemic anticoagulation. As we know, there's multiple studies have been done

over the past 10 years, with which we're all most familiar showing a percent of the durable ablation, both modalities from 87% to 95% at two to five years. There's less data on those on the anticoagulation undergoing thermal ablation.

The largest study with any long-term follow up was by Sharifi in 2011, and that was 88 patients and follow-up at one year. Both RF and the EVLA had 100% durable ablation with minimal bleeding complications. The other studies were all smaller groups

or for very much shorter follow-up. In 2017, a very large study came out, looking at the EVLA and RF using 375 subjects undergoing with anticoagulation. But it was only a 30-day follow-up, but it did show a 30% durable ablation

at that short time interval. Our objective was to evaluate efficacy, durability, and safety of RF and EVLA, the GSV and the SSV to treat symptomatic reflux in patients on therapeutic anticoagulation, and this group is with warfarin.

The data was collected from NYU, single-center. Patients who had undergone RF or laser ablation between 2011 and 2013. Ninety-two vessels of patients on warfarin at the time of endothermal ablation were selected for study. That's the largest to date with some long-term follow-up.

And this group was compared to a matched group of 124 control patients. Devices used were the ClosureFast catheter and the NeverTouch kits by Angiodynamics. Technical details, standard IFU for the catheters. Tumescent anesthetic.

And fiber tips were kept about 2.5 centimeters from the SFJ or the SPJ. Vein occlusion was defined as the absence of blood flow by duplex scan along the length of the treated vein. You're all familiar with the devices, so the methods included follow-up, duplex ultrasound

at one week post-procedure, and then six months, and then also at a year. And then annually. Outcomes were analyzed with Kaplan-Meier plots and log rank tests. The results of the anticoagulation patients, 92,

control, 124, the mean follow-up was 470 days. And you can see that the demographics were rather similar between the two groups. There was some more coronary disease and hypertension in the anticoagulated groups, and that's really not much of a surprise

and some more male patients. Vessels treated, primarily GSV. A smaller amount of SSV in both the anticoagulated and the control groups. Indications for anticoagulation.

About half of the patients were in atrial fibrillation. Another 30% had a remote DVT in the contralateral limb. About 8% had mechanical valves, and 11% were for other reasons. And the results. The persistent vein ablation at 12 months,

the anticoagulation patients was 97%, and the controls was 99%. Persistent vein ablation by treated vessel, on anticoagulation. Didn't matter if it was GSV or SSV. Both had persistent ablation,

and by treatment modality, also did not matter whether it was laser or RF. Both equivalent. If there was antiplatelet therapy in addition to the anticoagulation, again if you added aspirin or Clopidogrel,

also no change. And that was at 12 months. We looked then at persistent vein ablation out at 18 months. It was still at 95% for the controls, and 91% for the anticoagulated patients. Still not statistically significantly different.

At 24 months, 89% in both groups. Although the numbers were smaller at 36 months, there was actually still no statistically significant difference. Interestingly, the anticoagulated group actually had a better persistent closure rate

than the control group. That may just be because the patients that come back at 36 months who didn't have anticoagulation may have been skewed. The ones we actually saw were ones that had a problem. It gets harder to have patients

come back at three months who haven't had an uneventful venous ablation procedure. Complication, no significant hematomas. Three patients had DVTs within 30 days. One anticoagulation patient had a popliteal DVT, and one control patient.

And one control patient had a calf vein DVT. Two EHITs. One GSV treated with laser on anticoagulation noted at six days, and one not on anticoagulation at seven days. Endovenous RF and EVLA can be safely performed

in patients undergoing long-term warfarin therapy. Our experience has demonstrated a similar short- and mid-term durability for RF ablation and laser, and platelet therapy does not appear to impact the closer rates,

which is consistent with the prior studies. And the frequency of vein recanalization following venous ablation procedures while on ACs is not worse compared to controls, and to the expected incidence as described in the literature.

This is the largest study to date with follow-up beyond 30 days with thermal ablation procedures on anticoagulation patients. We continue to look at these patients for even longer term durability. Thanks very much for your attention.

- I think we have time. If there are any questions, please come up to the microphone and any of the panels have questions for each other. I have a number of questions I could ask but I just see if anyone wants to start out. Claudio?

- I have a question Doctor Mark. He show us very nice utilization of this device for occluded limbs. My question is, do you protect in any way the other side? If not, don't you have, you're not concerned

or you're not afraid of pushing clots from one side to the other one when you're manipulating the device? And the second one, do you do this percutaneously? And if that's the case, do you have any concern about having destabilization?

Because once you start to manipulate the clot that is occupying the entire graft, and there is reestablishment of flow in an antegrade flush, and you may have some of that clot dislodge and embolize distant. - Yeah, as I mentioned,

nobody wants to be the guru of limb occlusions. However, we have seen them and we always go retrograde ipsilateral, not seen emboli once from those seven cases and in fact, the 73 we presented at the midwest there was only two instances of embolization

when we utilized this device. And both times we were able to extract those just by going further down with the cat six and both of them was below the knee popliteal. In particular, the acute ones, it's soft and it's no different than watching it in vivo

or in vitro model, as you know better than I, comes out quite easily. - Let's take our question from the audience. - [Scott] Hi, Scott Tapart from Stuart, Florida. So I'd like to poll the panel there about are you doing every single

acute limb ischemia percutaneously? The pictures are elegant, the techniques are elegant, but the last speaker touched on the profoundly ichemic Rutherford 2B patient, where you're most likely going to have to do a fasciotomy. Are you going to the OR

or are you doing this percutaneously and then watching and waiting and seeing about fasciotomy? Or has this changed your fasciotomy approach? - So since we have a number of people, that's a great question. Why don't we start at the end

and let's just go kind of rapid fire, maybe one or two sentences, how do you choose your patients and what do you do with those 2Bs and we'll try to get through everybody. - Sure, so, to reiterate the last slide of the presentation,

essentially anybody with a significant motor or neutral deficit is somebody I tend to do in an open fashion. And if I'm the least bit concerned about doing a fasciotomy or there's evidence of compartment syndrome I do that patient open.

- We try to start endovascular, and if we can clean and reestablish antegrade flow, that would take care of the problem. And of course, I'm a radiologist, so I always consult with my colleagues in surgery and they decide if a fasciotomy needs to be done or not.

And it's that at the end. - Okay, I have to be honest, we start with the selective indication but now we move maybe to 90% of our patients doing percutaneously. We will adjust patients with probably an embolization,

a huge embolization, into the common femoral artery for open surgery. Of course, in our mind, also in the registry, we have some cases of fasciotomy after percutaneous approach so it's not a limitation. - The advantage of acute arterial protocol,

as they all go to the end of asher suite and they all run along our protocol but you can run the option. You get them to treatment quicker because they don't dilly-dally around in the holding room. But then according to how the patient's doing

you can mop up as much clot as you can with the percutaneous technique and then do the fasciotomy when you're done or press head and drip more if you need to. So I think to have an algorithm where you can treat the full spectrum

is what's best for the patient. - I think it depends on the time as well because I did two weeks ago a patient who needed a fasciotomy directly so I performed that first and then it rules out any traumalitic therapy

or whatever that you want to do. And actually, if I do antivascular techniques I usually give a shot or RTPA or something and then go further with it. But anomerization of this patient's arteries as well so prefer actually if it's really a case

that needs fasciotomy just to perform surgical thrombectomy. - Yeah, percutaneous eight French up and over and almost always, you're going to be done with your thrombectomy within about 30 to 45 minutes. I don't think you're adding that much time

and for us, by the time we get anesthesia in him assuming anesthesia's anesthesia no matter what part of the world you're in, so you can get to the hybrid room quicker and then if it's going to fail then you're going to call in the OR or call an anesthesiologist.

- I wouldn't have much else to add. I do think there is some patient selection, if you have an entire SFA, 30 centimeter clot, that's going to take you hours to do so for these thromboembolic things that are 10 centimeters or shorter

lodged in the popliteal TP trunk, this method works really well. I think for the longer patients, you might think about something else. - But just a comment on the general anesthesia. If a patient is in real or really pain,

he can't lie down for 30 minutes, even. I mean, they are rolling in pain and I would do the fasciotomy first because general anesthesia is needed because there is so much pain or, yes, so yeah.

- So, let me say, does that answer it, Scott? So let's, since we have a number of panelists and we're running out of time, how about if we ask each person going down the room, you heard a whole bunch of different speakers here with a lot of experience

and if you haven't used this, there is a learning curve. The learning curve is pretty shallow. Really, a lot of it has to do with controlling your blood loss. But if we ask each person for just one tip

and we'll see if we can get through everybody. If you telling people who hadn't done a lot of this, one tip or one trick, let's see if we can get seven or eight tips and tricks out. So, I'll go last. Let's start back down at that end

and we'll end up at this end. - Sure. Use the largest catheter that the vessel will comply to. - Amen, brother. - I agree with that.

And the way I do it, in order to avoid too much blood loss, I like to engage with a syringe. So I come with my catheter, I hook a syringe in the bag, 20cc or sometimes even larger, and when I have the fish at the end of my line, then I connect to the pump and I continue.

That way if I'm aspirating, I'm not going to aspirate a large volume so I want to engage the clot. And then I bring the clot out. That's my trick. - Okay.

Very nice comment. Of course, I agree with the previous colleagues but I will say that first the trick is really the largest catheter is better, then my idea that I developed during my learning curve is the use of separate to cut away.

I probably use now in 95% of cases because it just makes everything quicker and faster and better. - I use the perclose device for large-bore catheters often and that allows me to pull the plug out, especially if it's fibrous plugs,

safe from the heart without shearing it off on the end of the catheter. I've got one question for Claudio, on that case of the carotid subclabian with the acute carotid occlusion, do you think the nitroglycerin would have helped?

- For the doctor? - For the surgeon. - Absolutely. - And then, change the diapers. - Well, I would advise if you do a surgical embolectomy do it also on the hybrid room

and try to do it also over the wire. Especially be careful if you do it below the knee. I would suggest do it open below the knee, even. - I would say don't afraid to use an eight French for ALI and that closure devices are your friends here. But you can use an eight all the way down to the pop

and then for us, the tibials, we'll use a six. - Yeah, I would agree with that. So I guess my tip would be, I agree with everything everyone said, although I don't use the separator very often in the arterial side, I do in the veins.

But one tip is, if you're not going to use a separator, if you're going to start without it, let's say you want to give it a try, I don't work through a 2E borst because the angle, the eddy currents that form around that 2E borst

trap clots and you constantly have to clean that 2E out so if you're going to start with a focal embolis in the artery my recommendation is take the 2E off, hook up to the vacuum directly, and you'll get less clot stuck in the 2E. If you want to go to the separator

then you can always add that on at the back end. - So I have a question for Fennel. I used a penumbra like a few weeks ago and it ended up really bad because the surrounding catheter from the penumbra, everything got, you know, clotted

and then I didn't have any outflow did I choose the wrong size or what is it that happened, did you see it ever? - We have not had that problem. We're usually working on heparinized patients and have not seen that happen.

- She was heparinized. No? Okay. - Okay. Any other comments? Otherwise, we'll end one minute early

on a nice, long day.

- Thanks, I appreciate the invitation. MR imaging of vascular malformations poses some challenges primarily related to the heterogeneous spectrum of the lesions. The primary distinction to be made with imaging is between low flow and high flow abnormalities. This distinction, however, can often be made clinically

and so the real value in MR is in determining the malformation extent and the associated involvement of adjacent normal structures. The basic MR evaluation of vascular malformations should of course be multiplanar in two or three orthogonal planes, and in each of those planes,

there should be T1 and T2 weighted imaging. There's some debate about the value of contrast-enhanced scans. Certainly contrast-enhanced scanning will show things like arteriovenous shunting and lesion perfusion, but mostly the value of contrast-enhanced scanning

is in making the diagnosis of the abnormality rather than in guiding specific treatment. So let's talk about the various imaging sequences and go through a few examples. On T1 weighted images, we see the anatomy of the limb or of the area in question quite clearly.

But what you notice is that there's a signal similarity between the normal tissues and the adjacent malformation, such that they blend together. That means that assessment of lesion extent is poor on T1 weighted images. Now this is in distinction from T2 weighted imaging

where malformation images tend to stand out quite dramatically from the adjacent surrounding normal tissue, making assessment of lesion extent quite good, with the following caveat that on these bright water-type sequences, edema, when present, especially in high-flow lesions

or in low-flow lesions following embolization, it can result in overestimation of lesion extent. Many people routinely include contrast-enhanced imaging for malformation evaluation. I think it's probably not necessary and doesn't actually provide that much

additional information beyond making the actual diagnosis. Now that said, that's to be distinguished from dynamic time resolved imaging, which is a newer type of contrast-enhanced imaging using faster acquisition. It has what's called a higher temporal resolution and we can clearly differentiate

inflow arteries from draining veins and this can be valuable in treatment planning as well. Here we see pre- and post-contrast images and you'll notice that on the post-contrast images, there's slightly better visualization of the malformation, but the difference between the two is really modest

and probably not clinically relevant. Now that's to be distinguished from time resolved imaging, which will allow us to see arterial, parenchymal, and venous phases, and these can be stitched together to create a movie that really does look quite a bit like a catheter-based angiogram.

The difference between high and low flow malformations is primarily made based on structural characteristics, rather than MR signal abnormalities. So, low flow lesions will usually have minimal mass effect. Here we see signal abnormality with almost no mass effect. When a mass is present, it sometimes has

hamartomatous stromal elements that look like septations running through the mass. When a mass is not present, the lesion tends to be pretty infiltrative. Without any mass effect, sometimes the degree of infiltration is amazingly intimate, as in, case like this.

When we see phleboliths, which are routinely identified on radiographic images, we have confidence that we're dealing with a low flow lesion. But in fact, MRI imaging can identify phleboliths pretty consistently, and here you see they appear as rounder, oval, low signal images

on all imaging sequences, and of course, they don't enhance. Now, these findings are in distinction to high flow lesions, which demonstrate no well-defined mass ever, and in fact, if you see a well-defined mass it should make you think that you're dealing with a tumor rather than a malformation.

But they will demonstrate characteristics of enlarged feeding arteries, enlarged draining veins, and these infiltrative masses will often be riven through with multiple flow voids, and the degree of infiltration can be really, pretty impressive.

There are some signal characteristic differences between the various malformations. It's a long and involved topic, and probably something that doesn't make sense to go into here at this point, but I think the utility of MR in vascular malformations is primarily related to defining the anatomic

characteristics of the malformation, assessing what normal structures are involved or immediately adjacent, and this allows us to mitigate risk and plan the procedures. Now this is different from post-treatment evaluation of MRI, where there's definitely differences between how low flow and high flow lesions respond.

In low flow images, post-embolization we see significant signal changes. In high flow lesions, post-embolization we see anatomic changes. One important caveat to remember is when imaging and malformation within three months of an embolization,

it can be difficult to interpret related to the post-embolization inflammatory reaction. So on T1 weighted imaging post-embolization, we see bright signal, representing thrombus is the treated area as opposed to lack of bright signal, in the non-treated area.

On T2 weighted images, where the malformation generally appears bright, post-embolization we see dark areas in the treated zoned, representing scar. I personally prefer evaluating these with T2 weighted images. I think the distinction between treated and

untreated is greater and more consistent. Another example, scar forming, T2 weighted images. Again, I think the distinction is pretty clear. Although, contrast-enhancement isn't all that valuable in pre-treatment planning. Actually, can I get this video to go?

There we go. Although contrast-enhanced scanning isn't generally valuable in pre-treatment planning, there can be some utility in post-treatment evaluations. Specifically, dynamic time-resolved imaging or virtual angiography can be applicable to high flow malformations.

As you can see here, when the post-treatment evaluation and assessment of residual arteriovenous stunting is an important end point. Thank you. (applauding) - [Announcer] Any questions from the audience?

I think it's important to note, you mentioned the importance of T2 weighted imaging. And it is crucial, particularly for venous and lymphatic, or mixed lesions. But I think it's also important to state with T2 imaging, that you have to have fat suppression,

'cause fat also has bright signal and can be confused with malformation. - [Scott] Yeah, exactly, and there's really a broad range of T2 weighted images. What we rely on mostly is this short towen version recovery which,

- [Announcer] Now that's different, yeah. - [Mark] Yeah that's going to be. - I was going to write next. - [Mark] Yeah, so the, T2 fat suppressed images are, of course, critical, and should be obtained in every plane. We actually also obtain stir imaging in every plane. Yes, question?

- [Audience Member] So is the T2 full, (mumbling) what time do you need. - [Mark] I'm sorry, can you repeat that? - [Audience Member] What time do you need to continue to use of a full of T2 for (mumbling) - [Mark] Well, it depends on what you're looking for.

If you're trying to assess for complications, you can image any time. But, the challenge in interpreting is that the diagnostic radiologist won't necessarily know exactly where you've treated, and the lesion may appear abnormal in ways that aren't understood.

So, as the interventionalist who's doing the procedure, you really need to sit with the radiologist and help them understand what you did within that short timeframe. Now, if you're talking about imaging after three months, it's much easier to interpret signal changes have moderated, and that post-embolization inflammatory

phase has resolved. - [Audience Member] After two or three months? - [Mark] After three months, yeah. - [Announcer] Okay, thank you so much. - [Mark] Thank you.

- I am not Walter's enemy. I can tell you that. I am against the motion. (man laughing) I will stick to the truth, to the facts. I don't like polemic, like you. I don't like to play, let's say games

of undermining what my opponent is saying. I'm just showing what I believe in because it is the truth, okay? (quiet laughter) I have nothing to disclose. Let's stick to the definition of 'cure.'

We all know that 'cure' means 'at least one year follow-up, angiographic follow-up after the, so-called, final angiography, that shows that malformation is gone.' Call it whatever you want.

Technical success, obliterated, trombosed, concluded, ablated, gone. Then at least one year follow-up on that. Angiographic to prove it's gone. The rest is just a scale on how you can evaluate the results.

Angiographically and clinically. The only way, for me, to speak to the truth is to find in a material where there is a chance to compare.

Hat to hat. Both type of treatments. Polymerizing versus alcohol. And, the only way to find such a place is to go to Wayne's place, because he's also constantly called

talking about salvaging this and salvaging that. I am very critical about what Wayne does. You can be assured about that. He's had 16 patients, I dig out there, and polymerizing agents they were failed.

Definitely, failed. Actually, they were salvaged, by Wayne. And, I'll show that to you. These are the patients. This is the time to which they've been treated. The usual type of distribution.

Young patients. All of them extensive. There is no, for a lack of an effort. There is no, for a lack of knowing how to use

the polymer. Onyx. How we can tell that, most of those is Onyx, some of them are glue. Or a combination. The median number of sessions

with this polymerizing agent is 8.5. Range from one to thirty. The other radiologists, the other experts, besides my honorable opponent, Doctor, Professor Wolgemuth,

they also know how to use Onyx. I can assure that. Sixteen patients, all symptomatic. They are all decompensated, showing three, four tier symptomatically. They have high cardiac output,

they have required repeated, repeated blood transfusions, infections, ulcers, disarticulation. To have disarticulation of vascular malformation means, oh, horrible bleeding, infected. There is no doubt,

they are symptomatic. Couple of examples. This is a young woman, extensive AVM in the foot, type four. Been treated five times with Onyx. And they know what they've done.

They've treated well. Yet, worsening symptoms, wheelchair bound, infected ulcer. Seventy-one session. Now, pay attention. Seventy-one sessions of ethanol/coils embolization. And, this woman is now running with her friends

after her amputation of couple of necrotic toes. Not because of the alcohol. Because of the malformation. Angiographically, not cured. Example of that. Okay.

This is malformation. This is not something in a tiny, little bitty thing. It's a malformation, no question about that. Before treatment. And, this is after treatment. We can all agree that,

this is not completely cured. It is a grade three it is 80 to 99 percent still left. But, clinically, she's running. She continues to be treated. Another example.

One year old girl with bleeding malformation from the lip. Admittedly only one Onyx being used because we didn't know what to do. Luckily, the little girl was close by so she came to Wayne and after,

it's intravenous predominant lesion. It's a type two lesion. Only after a six month treatment sessions, cured. This is before start of ethanol treatment. No question there is recurrence. We can not close that only by pushing

polymerizing agents somewhere in something called 'nidus.' But if you ablate the cells, ablate the nidus. You achieve cure.

And it's cured in one year angiographic follow-up. This is time and time and again. I will show these examples. This is the outcome. The outcome tells you six cured angiographically. Eight considerably improved, they improved.

None of them is failed in this. All failed polymerizing agent treatment. Then we can move on. Complication because that's where talking about how dangerous. Alcohol is very dangerous,

but so is knife in operating room. Take a knife and stab it somewhere in some artery, or in a pressurized vein, you'll have all this blood in your face and a shoot of blood doesn't taste very good in your mouth. So it's dangerous.

But, if you use it carefully, that's what you achieve, as a result. Where do we stand with these patients? Ongoing treatment, five. Cured, five, by summation.

One still waiting for a follow-up on angiographic follow-up. Improved on watchful observation is two. Lost to follow-up because schizophrenia. Lost to follow-up because of unknown reason, after two years of follow-up.

He's been doing well throughout these two years. One clinical failure. I will tell you that Wayne have, he's seen this person. Not clinical failure. Yeah, it's clinic.

By definition, is clinical failure. Angiographically, improved. Clinically, improved. The little boy was wheelchair bound, didn't want to continue with that and, therefore, went for amputation.

So it's a clinical failure. One. To summarize that, I highlight on this, venous predominant lesions. These are the ones these create.

Type four. (man speaking off screen) Tough. Couple of examples. Striking examples. This is venous predominant lesion, IIA.

I'm sorry. IIIa, IIIb being treated. Sorry. Can we go back to that? Any way I can go back on that?

This IIIa, IIIb, there's has been five. That's moves forward. Five surgery, Onyx, anything thrown in. Extensive malformation. Shoulder, arm, a no-flow into the lower arm

because of the. And it's moving forward. I'm sorry for that. But it was cured. And there was a follow-up, too. I believe there was something.

Twenty, 15, 17 months follow-up. So we have the next patient. Thirty-two year old female treated with glue in the past.

Twenty procedure including all vessels. Everything that can not be, could be embolized, was emolized. Ended up with the worsening and this is the typical example a IIIa malformation, typical example.

This was way back in the past. This is how Wayne has developed that. It took him, I heard, nine hours and another 100 coils, but he cured that.

- [Male] 298. - Two hundred ninety-eight. This is the follow-up, you know. Eighteen months later. To summarize on that. Nothing to do with my feelings for Wayne.

Nothing to do with Walter being my enemy. (quiet laughter) No, it's just a fact, a truth. Polymerizing agents, by definition, do not cure AVMs. Do not cure.

Sometimes, when used properly, still worsen the patient's symptoms. Ethanol cures AVM. Provided that you do that with precision and skills. How you acquire precision and skills? Ask the surgeons around here.

How do they lift up this face? How Max can lift out, you know, big time metastasis sections in liver? How do you do that? With skills.

How do you acquire skills? Learn. Thank you.

3

- Now I want to talk about, as Chrissy mentioned AVM Classification System and it's treatment implication to achieve cure. How do I put forward? Okay, no disclosures. So there are already AVM Classification Systems. One is the well-known Houdart classification

for CNS lesions, and the other one is quite similar to the description to the Houdart lesion, the Cho Do classification of peripheral AVM's. But what do we expect from a good classification system? We expect that it gives us also a guide how to treat with a high rate of cure,

also for complex lesions. So the Yakes Classification System was introduced in 2014, and it's basically a further refinement of the previous classification systems, but it adds other features. As for example, a new description of

a new entity, Type IV AVM's with a new angioarchitecture, it defines the nidus, and especially a value is that it shows you the treatment strategy that should be applied according to angioarchitecture to treat the lesion. It's based on the use of ethanol and coils,

and it's also based on the long experience of his describer, Wayne Yakes. So the Yakes Classification System is also applicable to the very complex lesions, and we start with the Type I AVM, which is the most simple, direct

arterial to venous connection without nidus. So Type I is the simplest lesion and it's very common in the lung or in the kidney. Here we have a Type I AVM come from the aortic bifurcation draining into the paralumbar venous plexus,

and to get access, selective cauterization of the AVM is needed to define the transition point from the arterial side to the venous side, and to treat. So what is the approach to treat this? It's basically a mechanical approach, occluding

the lesion and the transition point, using mechanical devices, which can be coils or also other devices. For example, plugs or balloons. In small lesions, it can also be occluded using ethanol, but to mainly in larger lesions,

mechanical devices are needed for cure. Type II is the common and typical AVM which describes nidus, which comes from

multiple in-flow arteries and is drained by multiple veins. So this structure, as you can see here, can be, very, very dense, with multiple tangled fistulaes. And the way to break this AVM down is mainly that you get more selective views, so you want to get selective views

on the separate compartments to treat. So what are the treatment options? As you can see here, this is a very selective view of one compartment, and this can be treated using ethanol, which can be applied

by a superselective transcatheter arterial approach, where you try to get as far as possible to the nidus. Or if tangled vessels are not allowing transcatheter access, direct puncture of the feeding arteries immediately proximal to the nidus can be done to apply ethanol. What is the difference between Type IIa and IIb?

IIb has the same in-flow pattern as Type a, but it has a different out-flow pattern, with a large vein aneurysm. It's crucial to distinguish that the nidus precedes this venous aneurysm. So here you can see a nice example for Type IIb AVM.

This is a preview of the pelvis, we can here now see, in a lateral view, that the nidus fills the vein aneurysm and precedes this venous aneurysm. So how can this lesion be accessed? Of course, direct puncture is a safe way

to detect the lesion from the venous side. So blocking the outflow with coils, and possibly also ethanol after the flow is reduced to reflux into the fistulaes. It's a safe approach from the venous side for these large vein aneurysm lesions,

but also superselective transcatheter arterial approach to the nidus is able to achieve cure by placing ethanol into the nidus, but has to be directly in front of the nidus to spare nutrient arteries.

Type IIIa has also multiple in-flow arteries, but the nidus is inside the vein aneurysm wall. So the nidus doesn't precede the lesion, but it's in the vein wall. So where should this AVM be treated?

And you can see a very nice example here. This is a Type IIIa with a single out-flow vein, of the aneurysm vein, and this is a direct puncture of the vein, and you can see quite well that this vein aneurysm has just one single out-flow. So by blocking this out-flow vein,

the nidus is blocked too. Also ethanol can be applied after the flow was reduced again to reflux into the fistulas inside the vein aneurysm wall. And here you can see that by packing a dense packing with coils, the lesion is cured.

So direct puncture again from the venous side in this venous aneurysm venous predominant lesion. Type IIIb, the difference here is again, the out-flow pattern. So we have multiple in-flow arteries, the fistulaes are again in the vein aneurysm.

Which makes it even more difficult to treat this lesion, is that it has multiple out-flow veins and the nidus can also precede into these or move into these out-flow veins. So the dense packing of the aneurysm might have to be extended into the out-flow veins.

So what you can see here is an example. Again you need a more selective view, but you can already see the vein aneurysm, which can be targeted by direct puncture. And again here, the system applies. Placing coils and dense packing of the vein aneurysm,

and possibly also of the out-flow veins, can cure the lesion. This is the angiogram showing cure of this complex AVM IIIb. Type IV is a very new entity which was not described

in any other classification system as of yet. So what is so special about this Type IV AVM is it has multiple arteries and arterioles that form innumerable AV fistulaes, but these fistulaes infiltrate the tissue. And I'm going to specify this entity in a separate talk,

so I'm not going too much into details here. But treatment strategy of course, is also direct puncture here, and in case possible to achieve transarterial access very close to the nidus transarterial approach is also possible. But there are specific considerations, for example

50/50 mixture of alcohol, I'm going to specify this in a later talk. And here you can see some examples of this micro-fistulae in Type IV AVM infiltrative type. This is a new entity described. So the conclusion is that the Yakes Classification System

is based on the angioarchitecture of AVM's and on hemodynamic features. So it offers you a clear definition here the nidus is located, and where to deliver alcohol in a safe way to cure even complex AVM's.

Thank you very much.

- Thank you Professor Veith. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to present on behalf of my chief the results of the IRONGUARD 2 study. A study on the use of the C-Guard mesh covered stent in carotid artery stenting. The IRONGUARD 1 study performed in Italy,

enrolled 200 patients to the technical success of 100%. No major cardiovascular event. Those good results were maintained at one year followup, because we had no major neurologic adverse event, no stent thrombosis, and no external carotid occlusion. This is why we decided to continue to collect data

on this experience on the use of C-Guard stent in a new registry called the IRONGUARD 2. And up to August 2018, we recruited 342 patients in 15 Italian centers. Demographic of patients were a common demographic of at-risk carotid patients.

And 50 out of 342 patients were symptomatic, with 36 carotid with TIA and 14 with minor stroke. Stenosis percentage mean was 84%, and the high-risk carotid plaque composition was observed in 28% of patients, and respectively, the majority of patients presented

this homogenous composition. All aortic arch morphologies were enrolled into the study, as you can see here. And one third of enrolled patients presented significant supra-aortic vessel tortuosity. So this was no commerce registry.

Almost in all cases a transfemoral approach was chosen, while also brachial and transcervical approach were reported. And the Embolic Protection Device was used in 99.7% of patients, with a proximal occlusion device in 50 patients.

Pre-dilatation was used in 89 patients, and looking at results at 24 hours we reported five TIAs and one minor stroke, with a combined incidence rate of 1.75%. We had no myocardial infection, and no death. But we had two external carotid occlusion.

At one month, we had data available on 255 patients, with two additional neurological events, one more TIA and one more minor stroke, but we had no stent thrombosis. At one month, the cumulative results rate were a minor stroke rate of 0.58%,

and the TIA rate of 1.72%, with a cumulative neurological event rate of 2.33%. At one year, results were available on 57 patients, with one new major event, it was a myocardial infarction. And unfortunately, we had two deaths, one from suicide. To conclude, this is an ongoing trial with ongoing analysis,

and so we are still recruiting patients. I want to thank on behalf of my chief all the collaborators of this registry. I want to invite you to join us next May in Rome, thank you.

- I've made this agent comparison chart, just sort of summarizing the areas where I think that Onyx is better as compared to ethanol. I think things to come, oops, sorry, I got to go back. I think the items to be commented on are one, that there's less skin necrosis with the polymers.

It's a less painful procedure, and the Onyx, in our experience, is durable. But in the treatment of any type of AVM, you have to get your agent into the nidus of the malformation. If you don't do that,

then you're just doing a proximal occlusion. And we know from the surgical literature that that does not work. They will simply, the angiogenic stimulus, whatever triggers it, will continue. And that gets me to another point.

I really don't think that we really know what stimulates these malformations to grow. We think it may have something to do with a resistance in the flow, but we have some pelvic AVMs who have been stable for 30 years.

We're not touching them, and we have no intention of touching them, whereas we have children who will present with an AVM at age four and then by age seven, they are unable to ambulate. So in any event, I think that

polymers represent the future. And I just want to quote from this old movie, The Graduate. "Plastics," thank you.

- Thank you for introduction. Thanks to Frank Veith for the kind invitation to present here our really primarily single-center experience on this new technique. This is my disclosure. So what you really want

in the thromboembolic acute events is a quick flow restoration, avoid lytic therapies, and reduce the risk of bleeding. And this can be achieved by surgery. However, causal directed local thrombolysis

is much less invasive and also give us a panoramic view and topographic view that is very useful in these cases. But it takes time and is statistically implied

and increases risk of bleeding. So theoretically percutaneous thrombectomy can accomplish all these tasks including a shorter hospital stay. So among the percutaneous thrombectomy devices the Indigo System is based on a really simple

aspiration mechanism and it has shown high success in ischemic stroke. This is one of my first cases with the Indigo System using a 5 MAX needle intervention

adapted to this condition. And it's very easy to understand how is fast and effective this approach to treat intraprocedural distal embolization avoiding potential dramatic clinical consequences, especially in cases like this,

the only one foot vessel. This is also confirmed by this technical note published in 2015 from an Italian group. More recently, other papers came up. This, for example, tell us that

there has been 85% below-the-knee primary endpoint achievement and 54% in above-the-knee lesions. The TIMI score after VAT significantly higher for BTK lesions and for ATK lesions

a necessity of a concomitant endovascular therapy. And James Benenati has already told us the results of the PRISM trials. Looking into our case data very quickly and very superficially we can summarize that we had 78% full revascularization.

In 42% of cases, we did not perform any lytic therapy or very short lytic therapy within three hours. And in 36% a long lytic therapy was necessary, however within 24 hours. We had also 22% failure

with three surgery necessary and one amputation. I must say that among this group of patients, twenty patients, there were also patients like this with extended thrombosis from the groin to the ankle

and through an antegrade approach, that I strongly recommend whenever possible, we were able to lower the aspiration of the clots also in the vessel, in the tibial vessels, leaving only this region, thrombosis

needed for additional three hour infusion of TPA achieving at the end a beautiful result and the patient was discharged a day after. However not every case had similar brilliant result. This patient went to surgery and he went eventually to amputation.

Why this? And why VAT perform better in BTK than in ATK? Just hypotheses. For ATK we can have unknown underlying chronic pathology. And the mismatch between the vessel and the catheter can be a problem.

In BTK, the thrombus is usually soft and short because it is an acute iatrogenic event. Most importantly is the thrombotic load. If it is light, no short, no lytic or short lytic therapy is necessary. Say if heavy, a longer lytic therapy and a failure,

regardless of the location of the thrombosis, must be expected. So moving to the other topic, venous occlusive thrombosis. This is a paper from a German group. The most exciting, a high success rate

without any adjunctive therapy and nine vessels half of them prosthetic branch. The only caution is about the excessive blood loss as a main potential complication to be checked during and after the procedure. This is a case at my cath lab.

An acute aortic renal thrombosis after a open repair. We were able to find the proximate thrombosis in this flush occlusion to aspirate close to fix the distal stenosis

and the distal stenosis here and to obtain two-thirds of the kidney parenchyma on both sides. And this is another patient presenting with acute mesenteric ischemia from vein thrombosis.

This device can be used also transsympatically. We were able to aspirate thrombi but after initial improvement, the patient condition worsened overnight. And the CT scan showed us a re-thrombosis of the vein. Probably we need to learn more

in the management of these patients especially under the pharmacology point of view. And this is a rapid overview on our out-of-lower-limb case series. We had good results in reimplanted renal artery, renal artery, and the pulmonary artery as well.

But poor results in brachial artery, fistula, and superior mesenteric vein. So in conclusion, this technology is an option for quick thromboembolic treatment. It's very effective for BTK intraprocedural embolic events.

The main advantage is a speeding up the blood flow and reestablishing without prolonged thrombolysis or reducing the dosage of the thrombolysis. Completely cleaning up extensive thromobosed vessels is impossible without local lytic therapies. This must be said very clearly.

Indigo technology is promising and effective for treatment of acute renovisceral artery occlusion and sub massive pulmonary embolism. Thank you for your attention. I apologize for not being able to stay for the discussion

because I have a flight in a few hours. Thank you very much.

- Thanks Dr. Weaver. Thank you Dr. Reed for the invitation, once again, to this great meeting. These are my disclosures. So, open surgical repair of descending aortic arch disease still carries some significant morbidity and mortality.

And obviously TEVAR as we have mentioned in many of the presentations has become the treatment of choice for appropriate thoracic lesions, but still has some significant limitations of seal in the aortic arch and more techniques are being developed to address that.

Right now, we also need to cover the left subclavian artery and encroach or cover the left common carotid artery for optimal seal, if that's the area that we're trying to address. So zone 2, which is the one that's,

it is most commonly used as seal for the aortic arch requires accurate device deployment to maximize the seal and really avoid ultimately, coverage of the left common carotid artery and have to address it as an emergency. Seal, in many of these cases is not maximized

due to the concern of occlusion of the left common carotid artery and many of the devices are deployed without obtaining maximum seal in that particular area. Failure of accurate deployment often leads to a type IA endoleak or inadvertent coverage

of the left common carotid artery which can become a significant problem. The most common hybrid procedures in this group of patients include the use of TEVAR, a carotid-subclavian reconstruction and left common carotid artery stenting,

which is hopefully mostly planned, but many of the times, especially when you're starting, it may be completely unplanned. The left common carotid chimney has been increasingly used to obtain a better seal

in this particular group of patients with challenging arches, but there's still significant concerns, including patients having super-vascular complications, stroke, Type A retrograde dissections and a persistent Type IA endoleak

which can be very challenging to be able to correct. There's limited data to discuss this specific topic, but some of the recent publications included a series of 11 to 13 years of treatment with a variety of chimneys.

And these publications suggest that the left common carotid chimneys are the most commonly used chimneys in the aortic arch, being used 76% to 89% of the time in these series. We can also look at these and the technical success

is very good. Mortality's very low. The stroke rate is quite variable depending on the series and chimney patency's very good. But we still have a relatively high persistent

Type IA endoleak on these procedures. So what can we do to try to improve the results that we have? And some of these techniques are clearly applicable for elective or emergency procedures. In the elective setting,

an open left carotid access and subclavian access can be obtained via a supraclavicular approach. And then a subclavian transposition or a carotid-subclavian bypass can be performed in preparation for the endovascular repair. Following that reconstruction,

retrograde access to left common carotid artery can be very helpful with a 7 French sheath and this can be used for diagnostic and therapeutic purposes at the same time. The 7 French sheath can easily accommodate most of the available covered and uncovered

balloon expandable stents if the situation arises that it's necessary. Alignment of the TEVAR is critical with maximum seal and accurate placement of the TEVAR at this location is paramount to be able to have a good result.

At that point, the left common carotid artery chimney can be deployed under control of the left common carotid artery. To avoid any embolization, the carotid can be flushed, primary repaired, and the subclavian can be addressed

if there is concern of a persistent retrograde leak with embolization with a plug or other devices. The order can be changed for the procedure to be able to be done emergently as it is in this 46 year old policeman with hypertension and a ruptured thoracic aneurism.

The patient had the left common carotid access first, the device deployed appropriately, and the carotid-subclavian bypass performed in a more elective fashion after the rupture had been addressed. So, in conclusion, carotid chimney's and TEVAR

combination is a frequently used to obtain additional seal on the aortic arch, with pretty good results. Early retrograde left common carotid access allows safe TEVAR deployment with maximum seal,

and the procedure can be safely performed with low morbidity and mortality if we select the patients appropriately. Thank you very much.

- Mr Chairman, dear colleagues. I've nothing to disclose. We know that aneurysm or dilation of the common iliac artery is present in almost 20% of cases submitted to endovascular repair and we have a variety of endovascular solution available. The first one is the internal iliac artery

embolization and coverage which is very technically easy but it's a suboptimal choice due to the higher risk of thrombosis and internal iliac problems. So the flared limbs landing in the common iliac artery is technically easy,

however, the results in the literature are conflicting. Iliac branch devices is a more demanding procedure but has to abide to a specific anatomical conditions and is warranted by good results in the literature such as this work from the group in Perugia who showed a technical success of almost 100%

as you can see, and also good results in other registries. So there are unresolved question about this problem which is the best choice in this matter, flared limbs or iliac branch devices. In order to solve this problem, we have looked at our data,

published them in Journal Vascular Interventional Neurology and this is our retrospective observational study involving treatment with either flared limbs or IBD and these are the flared limbs devices we used in this study. Anaconda, Medtronic, Cook and Gore.

And these are the IFU of the two IBD which were used in this study which were Gore-IBE and Cook-ZBS. So we looked at the 602 EVAR with 105 flared limbs which were also fit for IBD. And on the other side, we looked at EVAR-IBD

implanted in the same period excluding those implanted outside the IFU. So we ended up with 57 cases of IBD inside the IFU. These are the characteristics of the two groups of patients. The main important finding was the year age which was a little younger in the IBD group

and the common iliac artery diameter which was greater, again in the IBD group. So this is the distribution of the four types of flared limbs devices and IBD in the two groups. And as you can see, the procedural time and volume of contrast medium was significantly

higher in the IBD group. Complications did not differ significantly however, overall there were four iliac complication and all occurred in the flared limbs group. When we went to late complications, putting together all the iliac complication, they were significantly

greater in the flared limbs group compared with the IBD with zero percent complication rate. Late complications were always addressed by endovascular relining or relining and urokinase in case of infusion, in case of thrombosis. And as you can see here, the late outcome

did not differ significantly in the two groups. However, when we put together all the iliac complication, the iliac complication free survival was significantly worse in the flared limbs group. So in conclusion, flared limbs and IBD have similar perioperative outcomes.

IBD is more technically demanding, needs more contrast medium and time obviously. The complications in flared limbs are all resolvable by endovascular means and IBD has a better outcome in the long term period. So the take-home message of my presentation

is that we prefer IBD in young patients with high life expectancy and in the presence of anatomical risk factors of flared limbs late complications. Thank you for your attention.

- Thank you for asking me to speak. Thank you Dr Veith. I have no disclosures. I'm going to start with a quick case again of a 70 year old female presented with right lower extremity rest pain and non-healing wound at the right first toe

and left lower extremity claudication. She had non-palpable femoral and distal pulses, her ABIs were calcified but she had decreased wave forms. Prior anterior gram showed the following extensive aortoiliac occlusive disease due to the small size we went ahead and did a CT scan and confirmed.

She had a very small aorta measuring 14 millimeters in outer diameter and circumferential calcium of her aorta as well as proximal common iliac arteries. Due to this we treated her with a right common femoral artery cutdown and an antegrade approach to her SFA occlusion with a stent.

We then converted the sheath to a retrograde approach, place a percutaneous left common femoral artery access and then placed an Endologix AFX device with a 23 millimeter main body at the aortic bifurcation. We then ballooned both the aorta and iliac arteries and then placed bilateral balloon expandable

kissing iliac stents to stent the outflow. Here is our pre, intra, and post operative films. She did well. Her rest pain resolved, her first toe amputation healed, we followed her for about 10 months. She also has an AV access and had a left arterial steel

on a left upper extremity so last week I was able to undergo repeat arteriogram and this is at 10 months out. We can see that he stent remains open with good flow and no evidence of in stent stenosis. There's very little literature about using endografts for occlusive disease.

Van Haren looked at 10 patients with TASC-D lesions that were felt to be high risk for aorta bifem using the Endologix AFX device. And noted 100% technical success rate. Eight patients did require additional stent placements. There was 100% resolution of the symptoms

with improved ABIs bilaterally. At 40 months follow up there's a primary patency rate of 80% and secondary of 100% with one acute limb occlusion. Zander et all, using the Excluder prothesis, looked at 14 high risk patients for aorta bifem with TASC-C and D lesions of the aorta.

Similarly they noted 100% technical success. Nine patients required additional stenting, all patients had resolution of their symptoms and improvement of their ABIs. At 62 months follow up they noted a primary patency rate of 85% and secondary of 100

with two acute limb occlusions. The indications for this procedure in general are symptomatic patient with a TASC C or D lesion that's felt to either be a high operative risk for aorta bifem or have a significantly calcified aorta where clamping would be difficult as we saw in our patient.

These patients are usually being considered for axillary bifemoral bypass. Some technical tips. Access can be done percutaneously through a cutdown. I do recommend a cutdown if there's femoral disease so you can preform a femoral endarterectomy and

profundaplasty at the same time. Brachial access is also an alternative option. Due to the small size and disease vessels, graft placement may be difficult and may require predilation with either the endograft sheath dilator or high-pressure balloon.

In calcified vessels you may need to place covered stents in order to pass the graft to avoid rupture. Due to the poor radial force of endografts, the graft must be ballooned after placement with either an aortic occlusion balloon but usually high-pressure balloons are needed.

It usually also needs to be reinforced the outflow with either self-expanding or balloon expandable stents to prevent limb occlusion. Some precautions. If the vessels are calcified and tortuous again there may be difficult graft delivery.

In patients with occluded vessels standard techniques for crossing can be used, however will require pre-dilation before endograft positioning. If you have a sub intimal cannulation this does put the vessel at risk for rupture during

balloon dilation. Small aortic diameters may occlude limbs particularly using modular devices. And most importantly, the outflow must be optimized using stents distally if needed in the iliac arteries, but even more importantly, assuring that you've

treated the femoral artery and outflow to the profunda. Despite these good results, endograft use for occlusive disease is off label use and therefor not reimbursed. In comparison to open stents, endograft use is expensive and may not be cost effective. There's no current studies looking

into the cost/benefit ratio. Thank you.

- Alright-ey, hands put up. Who is for Onyx? Put your arms up. - [Male Audience Member] Who supports the Onyx Motion? - Onyx Motion, that's correct. He should've gone to law school. Who supports the alcohol motion?

Who supports the motion in the ocean? Alright, thank you I think we covered a lot of territory today. We want to have theses things and we are so glad that everybody came. I think this is Tony's first time,

Walter's first time here, Loronze and we really learned a lot today. I'm really glad Pletio Rossi was here because without him and his development of selective catheterization, I mean where would we be

sticking needles in every artery like that, trying to do angiograms, much less advanced sheaths or anything else. Pletio was wonderful having him here, one of my hero's. Anybody like to say anything?

Anybody got any questions or anything? - [Female Audience Member] The HHT scientific meeting's in June in Puerto Rico if you want some more good-- - Do they have electricity there yet? - [Female Audience Member] I hope so, I knew it looked nice before.

- Oh, okay, okay. Alright, well thank ya'll so much and we'll see you next year. (Clapping)

- Thank you very much, Frank, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have no disclosure. Standard carotid endarterectomy patch-plasty and eversion remain the gold standard of treatment of symptomatic and asymptomatic patient with significant stenosis. One important lesson we learn in the last 50 years

of trial and tribulation is the majority of perioperative and post-perioperative stroke are related to technical imperfection rather than clamping ischemia. And so the importance of the technical accuracy of doing the endarterectomy. In ideal world the endarterectomy shouldn't be (mumbling).

It should contain embolic material. Shouldn't be too thin. While this is feasible in the majority of the patient, we know that when in clinical practice some patient with long plaque or transmural lesion, or when we're operating a lesion post-radiation,

it could be very challenging. Carotid bypass, very popular in the '80s, has been advocated as an alternative of carotid endarterectomy, and it doesn't matter if you use a vein or a PTFE graft. The result are quite durable. (mumbling) showing this in 198 consecutive cases

that the patency, primary patency rate was 97.9% in 10 years, so is quite a durable procedure. Nowadays we are treating carotid lesion with stinting, and the stinting has been also advocated as a complementary treatment, but not for a bail out, but immediately after a completion study where it

was unsatisfactory. Gore hybrid graft has been introduced in the market five years ago, and it was the natural evolution of the vortec technique that (mumbling) published a few years before, and it's a technique of a non-suture anastomosis.

And this basically a heparin-bounded bypass with the Nitinol section then expand. At King's we are very busy at the center, but we did 40 bypass for bail out procedure. The technique with the Gore hybrid graft is quite stressful where the constrained natural stint is inserted

inside internal carotid artery. It's got the same size of a (mumbling) shunt, and then the plumbing line is pulled, and than anastomosis is done. The proximal anastomosis is performed in the usual fashion with six (mumbling), and the (mumbling) was reimplanted

selectively. This one is what look like in the real life the patient with the personal degradation, the carotid hybrid bypass inserted and the external carotid artery were implanted. Initially we very, very enthusiastic, so we did the first cases with excellent result.

In total since November 19, 2014 we perform 19 procedure. All the patient would follow up with duplex scan and the CT angiogram post operation. During the follow up four cases block. The last two were really the two very high degree stenosis. And the common denominator was that all the patients

stop one of the dual anti-platelet treatment. They were stenosis wise around 40%, but only 13% the significant one. This one is one of the patient that developed significant stenosis after two years, and you can see in the typical position at the end of the stint.

This one is another patient who develop a quite high stenosis at proximal end. Our patency rate is much lower than the one report by Rico. So in conclusion, ladies and gentlemen, the carotid endarterectomy remain still the gold standard,

and (mumbling) carotid is usually an afterthought. Carotid bypass is a durable procedure. It should be in the repertoire of every vascular surgeon undertaking carotid endarterectomy. Gore hybrid was a promising technology because unfortunate it's been just not produced by Gore anymore,

and unfortunately it carried quite high rate of restenosis that probably we should start to treat it in the future. Thank you very much for your attention.

- I think it's unfair to have Wayne here with all his expertise and knowledge and throwing all these combative comments, vulgar attack, et cetera. But the bottom line is all these types, no matter how you define them, they are mixed.

They are mixed, they are not, with the exception for HDT. You have Type 1 in a midst of Type 2. You have Type 2A and then 3B, type something. I don't even know what they are, except that you say venous predominance, yes. Can be multiple venous predominance, yes.

Then you can have Type 4, these are the major groups. But to have a filler that occupies a space, can be Onyx, it's fine. It doesn't cure. You have to do something to these cells. You have to compress them.

You have to ablate them. You have to take them out. And a filler doesn't do that. The filler recolonizes on top of that, as you've put it already, from Molly. Recolonizes.

You can use it as a filler, but the cure, the ablation, has to be something that's powerful. Like a knife, even worse than knife, burn injuries, burn it to the bottom. That's how you achieve a cure. If you don't believe me, just look at ...

Can you play us that clip that was rotating constantly as Walter was talking, here, how Onyx is wonderful? This is the girl that you show on the pictures from Bob. Can you look at that? It's a ton of extras placed into the veins,

arteries, everywhere. She continues to bleed. On top of that, it's horrendous, how to treat it. Wayne managed to stop and control the bleeding, but this is an example.

This is the most scary sample of what Onyx cannot do. So back to the motion. Polymerizing Onyx can cure, and it's the material of choice to use? The answer is no. Alcohol is dangerous, personally,

I say yah, very dangerous, if you drive and you don't know how to use it. But so is everything else. But if you know, you can cure them. Thanks.

- [Presenter] Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and ladies and gentlemen, and Frank Veith for this opportunity. Before I start my talk, actually, I can better sit down, because Hans and I worked together. We studied in the same city, we finished our medical study there, we also specialized in surgery

in the same city, we worked together at the same University Hospital, so what should I tell you? Anyway, the question is sac enlargement always benign has been answered. Can we always detect an endoleak, that is nice. No, because there are those hidden type II's,

but as Hans mentioned, there's also a I a and b, position dependent, possible. Hidden type III, fabric porosity, combination of the above. Detection, ladies and gentlemen, is limited by the tools we have, and CTA, even in the delayed phase

and Duplex-scan with contrast might not always be good enough to detect these lesions, these endoleaks. This looks like a nice paper, and what we tried to do is to use contrast-enhanced agents in combination with MRI. And here you see the pictures. And on the top you see the CTA, with contrast,

and also in the delayed phase. And below, you see this weak albumin contrast agent in an MRI and shows clearly where the leak is present. So without this tool, we were never able to detect an endoleak with the usual agents. So, at this moment, we don't know always whether contrast

in the Aneurysm Sac is only due to a type II. I think this is an important message that Hans pushed upon it. Detection is limited by the tools we have, but the choice and the success of the treatment is dependent on the kind of endoleak, let that be clear.

So this paper has been mentioned and is using not these advanced tools. It is only using very simple methods, so are they really detecting type II endoleaks, all of them. No, of course not, because it's not the golden standard. So, nevertheless, it has been published in the JVS,

it's totally worthless, from a scientific point of view. Skip it, don't read it. The clinical revelance of the type II endoleak. It's low pressure, Hans pointed it out. It works, also in ruptured aneurysms, but you have to be sure that the type II is the only cause

of Aneurysm Sac Expansion. So, is unlimited Sac Expansion harmless. I agree with Hans that it is not directly life threatening, but it ultimately can lead to dislodgement and widening of the neck and this will lead to an increasing risk for morbidity and even mortality.

So, the treatment of persistent type II in combination with Sac Expansion, and we will hear more about this during the rest of the session, is Selective Coil-Embolisation being preferred for a durable solution. I'm not so much a fan of filling the Sac, because as was shown by Stephan Haulan, we live below the dikes

and if we fill below the dikes behind the dikes, it's not the solution to prevent rupture, you have to put something in front of the dike, a Coil-Embolisation. So classic catheterisation of the SMA or Hypogastric, Trans Caval approach is now also popular,

and access from the distal stent-graft landing zone is our current favorite situation. Shows you quickly a movie where we go between the two stent-grafts in the iliacs, enter the Sac, and do the coiling. So, prevention of the type II during EVAR

might be a next step. Coil embolisation during EVAR has been shown, has been published. EVAS, is a lot of talks about this during this Veith meeting and the follow-up will tell us what is best. In conclusions, the approach to sac enlargement

without evident endoleak. I think unlimited Sac expansion is not harmless, even quality of life is involved. What should your patient do with an 11-centimeter bilp in his belly. Meticulous investigation of the cause of the Aneurysm Sac

Expansion is mandatory to achieve a, between quote, durable treatment, because follow-up is crucial to make that final conclusion. And unfortunately, after treatment, surveillance remains necessary in 2017, at least. And this is Hans Brinker, who put his finger in the dike,

to save our country from a type II endoleak, and I thank you for your attention.

- Thank you very much again. Thank you very much for the kind invitation. The answer to the question is, yes or no. Well, basically when we're talking about pelvic reflux, we're talking really, about, possibly thinking about two separate entities. One symptoms relate to the pelvis

and issues with lower limb varicose veins. Really some time ago, we highlighted in a review, various symptoms that may be associated with the pelvic congestion syndrome. This is often, either misdiagnosed or undiagnosed. The patients we see have had multiple investigations

prior to treatment. I'm not really going to dwell on the anatomy but, just really highlight to you it is incompetence in either the renal pelvic and ovarian veins. What about the patterns of reflux we've heard from both Mark and Nicos what the pattern are

but, basically if you look a little more closely you can see that not only the left ovarian vein is probably effected in a round-about 60%. But, there is incompetence in many of the other veins. What does this actually have implication for with respect to treatment.

Implications are that you probably, if you only treat an isolated vein. There is a suggestion, that the long term outcomes are not actually as good. Now this is some work from Mark Whiteley's group because, we've heard about the diagnosis

but, there is some discussion as to whether just looking at ovarian vein diameter is efficient and certainly the Whiteley group suggests that actually diameter is relatively irrelevant in deciding as to whether there is incompetence in the actual vein itself.

That diameter should not be used as a single indicator. You may all well be aware, that there are reporting standards for the treatment of pelvic venous insufficiency and this has been high-lighted in this paper. What of the resuts, of pelvic embolization and coiling? The main standard is used, is a visual analog scale

when you're looking at pelvic symptoms to decide what the outcome may be. This is a very nice example of an article that was... A review that was done in Niel Khilnani's group and you can see if you look at the pre

and post procedural visual analog scales there is some significant improvement. You can see that this is out at one year in the whole. Now, this is a further table from the paper. Showing you their either, there's a mixture

of glue, coils, scleroses and foam. The comments are that, there are significant relief and some papers suggest its after 100% and others up to 80%. If you look at this very nice review that Mark Meissner did with Kathy Gibson,

you will see that actually no improvement in worse. There's quite a range there for those patients 53% of patients in one study, had no improvement or the symptoms were potentially worse. We know that those patients who have coil embolization will have reoccurrence of symptomatology

and incompetence up to about a quarter of the patients. What about varicose veins? The answer is there is undoubtedly evidence to suggest that there is physiological/anatomical incompetence in some of the pelvic veins in patients

who have recurrent varicose veins. Whether this is actually a direct cause or an association, I think it's something we need to have some further consideration of. As you know, there are many people who now would advicate actually treating

the pelvic veins prior to treating the leg veins. You can maybe discuss that in the question time. If we then look at a comparative trial. Comparing coils and plugs, you can see over all there really isn't no particular difference. If we then look again to highlight this,

which comes again from the Whiteley group. You can see that 20% of patients will have some primary incompetence but, it'll go up to around 30% if they are re-current. There is no randomized control data looking at this. What are the problems with coils?

Actually, a bit like (mumbling) you can find them anywhere. You can find them in the chest and also you can find that there are patients now who are allergic to nickel and the very bottom corner is a patient who's coils I took out by open laparotomy because they were allergic to nickel.

So, ladies and gentlemen I would suggest to you certainly, for continuing with pelvic embolization when doubtedly it needs some more RCT data and some much better registry data to look where we're going. Thank you very much.

- Good morning. I'd like to thank everybody who's in attendance for the 7 A.M. session. So let's talk about a case. 63 year old male, standard risk factors for aneurismal disease. November 2008, he had a 52 mm aneurism,

underwent Gore Excluder, endovascular pair. Follow up over the next five, relatively unremarkable. Sac regression 47 mm no leak. June 2017, he was lost for follow up, but came back to see us. Duplex imaging CTA was done to show the sac had increased

from 47 to 62 in a type 2 endoleak was present. In August of that year, he underwent right common iliac cuff placement for what appeared to be a type 1b endoleak. September, CT scan showed the sac was stable at 66 and no leak was present. In March, six months after that, scan once again

showed the sac was there but a little bit larger, and a type two endoleak was once again present. He underwent intervention. This side access on the left embolization of the internal iliac, and a left iliac limb extension. Shortly thereafter,

contacted his PCP at three weeks of weakness, fatigue, some lethargy. September, he had some gluteal inguinal pain, chills, weakness, and fatigue. And then October, came back to see us. Similar symptoms, white count of 12, and a CT scan

was done and here where you can appreciate is, clearly there's air within the sac and a large anterior cell with fluid collections, blood cultures are negative at that time. He shortly thereafter went a 2 stage procedure, Extra-anatomic bypass, explant of the EVAR,

there purulent fluid within the sac, not surprising. Gram positive rods, and the culture came out Cutibacterium Acnes. So what is it we know about this case? Well, EVAR clearly is preferred treatment for aneurism repair, indications for use h

however, mid-term reports still show a significant need for secondary interventions for leaks, migrations, and rupture. Giles looked at a Medicare beneficiaries and clearly noted, or at least evaluated the effect of re-interventions

and readmissions after EVAR and open and noted that survival was negatively impacted by readmissions and re-interventions, and I think this was one of those situations that we're dealing with today. EVAR infections and secondary interventions.

Fortunately infections relatively infrequent. Isolated case reports have been pooled into multi-institutional cohorts. We know about a third of these infections are related to aortoenteric fistula, Bacteremia and direct seeding are more often not the underlying source.

And what we can roughly appreciate is that at somewhere between 14 and 38% of these may be related to secondary catheter based interventions. There's some data out there, Matt Smeed's published 2016, 180 EVARs, multi-center study, the timing of the infection presumably or symptomatic onset

was 22 months and 14% or greater had secondary endointerventions with a relatively high mortality. Similarly, the study coming out of Italy, 26 cases, meantime of diagnosis of the infection is 20 months, and that 34.6% of these cases underwent secondary endovascular intervention.

Once again, a relatively high mortality at 38.4%. Study out of France, 11 institutions, 33 infective endographs, time of onset of symptoms 414 days, 30% of these individuals had undergone secondary interventions. In our own clinical experience of Pittsburgh,

we looked at our explants. There were 13 down for infection, and of those nine had multiple secondary interventions which was 69%, a little bit of an outlier compared to the other studies. Once again, a relatively high mortality at one year. There's now a plethora of information in the literature

stating that secondary interventions may be a source for Bacteremia in seeding of your endovascular graft. And I think beyond just a secondary interventions, we know there's a wide range of risk factors. Perioperative contamination, break down in your sterile technique,

working in the radiology suite as opposed to the operating room. Wound complications to the access site. Hematogenous seeding, whether it's from UTIs, catheter related, or secondary interventions are possible.

Graft erosion, and then impaired immunity as well. So what I can tell you today, I think there is an association without question from secondary interventions and aortic endograft infection. Certainly the case I presented appears to show causation but there's not enough evidence to fully correlate the two.

So in summary, endograft infections are rare fortunately. However, the incidence does appear to be subtly rising. Secondary interventions following EVAR appear to be a risk factor for graft infection. Graft infections are associated without question

a high morbidity and mortality. I think it's of the utmost importance to maintain sterile technique, administer prophylactic antibiotics for all secondary endovascular catheter based interventions. Thank you.

- Thank you so much. I have no disclosures. These guidelines were published a year ago and they are open access. You can download the PDF and you can also download the app and the app was launched two months ago

and four of the ESVS guidelines are in that app. As you see, we had three American co-authors of this document, so we have very high expertise that we managed to gather.

Now the ESVS Mesenteric Guidelines have all conditions in one document because it's not always obvious if it's acute, chronic, acute-on-chron if it's arteri

if there's an underlying aneurysm or a dissection. And we thought it a benefit for the clinician to have all in one single document. It's 51 pages, 64 recommendations, more than 300 references and we use the

ESC grading system. As you will understand, it's impossible to describe this document in four minutes but I will give you some highlights regarding one of the chapters, the Acute arterial mesenteric ischaemia chapter.

We have four recommendations on how to diagnose this condition. We found that D-dimer is highly sensitive so that a normal D-dimer value excludes the condition but it's also unfortunately unspecific. There's a common misconception that lactate is

useful in this situation. Lactate becomes elevated very late when the patient is dying. It's not a good test for diagnosing acute mesenteric ischaemia earlier. And this is a strong recommendation against that.

We also ask everyone uses the CTA angiography these days and that is of course the mainstay of diagnoses as you can see on this image. Regarding treatment, we found that in patients with acute mesenteric arterial ischaemia open or endovascular revascularisation

should preferably be done before bowel surgery. This is of course an important strategic recommendation when we work together with general surgeons. We also concluded that completion imaging is important. And this is maybe one of the reasons why endovascular repair tends to do better than

open repair in these patients. There was no other better way of judging the bowel viability than clinical judgment a no-brainer is that these patients need antibiotics and it's also a strong recommendation to do second look laparotomoy.

We found that endovascular treatment is first therapy if you suspect thrombotic occlusion. They had better survival than the open repair, where as in the embolic situation, we found no difference in outcome.

So you can do both open or endo for embolus, like in this 85 year old man from Uppsala where we did a thrombus, or the embolus aspiration. Regarding follow up, we found that it was beneficial to do imaging follow-up after stenting, and also secondary prevention is important.

So in conclusion, ladies and gentlemen, the ESVS Guidelines can be downloaded freely. There are lots of recommendations regarding diagnosis, treatment, and follow-up. And they are most useful when the diagnosis is difficult and when indication for treatment is less obvious.

Please read the other chapters, too and please come to Hamburg next year for the ESVS meeting. Thank You

- My rebuttal is short and sweet. I think that those of us who have seen both agents, seen it in a fair comparison, understand that while ethanol has an appearance of difficulty to use, have come to the conclusion that it is actually safe. It has to be applied in the right spot. If it is such it will absolutely cure

and in it's very, very safe fashion. I think Walter mentioned the four deaths that I referred to. I agree, tragic, terrible, but we learn. Haven't had any deaths since, because I understand now the mistake I made and how to use ethanol.

I think the same thing is true. Max will tell you that there were enumerable deaths during the development of transplanting these difficult operations. No longer, all controlled, it's all because of learning. Thanks.

- Alright, that's our beautiful city by our inland freshwater ocean. I'm against the proposal because, in my opinion, ONYX and the polymerizing agents don't do what they're supposed to do, which is cure. You know, we could talk about this, but in preparation for this, I looked at the

relatively sparse, but available, literature on ONYX, and the fact of the matter is, repeatedly when one looks at what is in the literature, ONYX does not cure with a few exceptions. For example, this is the curative exception. This is a mandibular AVMs, three of them cured

at one year angiographic followup. Now, I consider cure a very simple metric: is it gone at one year followup angiography or imaging? And this meets that criteria, but again, we know that mandibular AVMs, as Dr. Fannis has so nicely shown, this is a bone cyst, essentially,

fill it with anything, it'll get cured. All venous predominant legions, three A. So, yes, cure is possible in isolated circumstances. I think Walter has acknowledged that. But, all the other data, including Dr. Loglos' own data, is that there is no angiographic

followup, short clinical followup. Other papers, Embolization of peripheral high-flow AVMs by Kilani et. al, surgical excision in nine out of 19. Right, that's not the same thing, but it is one aspect of doing it, and there's no angiographic followup. And we see this again and again and again.

Very short clinical followup. So paper after paper refused to tell us that we don't really know what the behavior of ONYX is, as defined by the very simple metric of cure. Although complete, in this paper for example, although complete angiographic exclusion of the nidus

is obtained in a minority, 36 percent, of cases, there's no angiographic followup, so the exclusion is presumably based on immediate post-embolization angiography. In other words, ONYX looks good, acts bad. Other embolization agents in this paper also used,

probably some of them ethanol, which actually got the job done. And then finally, another paper with zero clinical or angiographic followup. So the answer is obvious: ONYX, while it is used copiously by some of the participants in this debate, does not cure,

and I, as my Chinese friends said, think ONYX is garbage. I don't think it works. Few examples of that, here's a young woman, a patient of Dr. Yakes, who, 12 years old, extensive facial maxillary scalp AVM, nine ONYX embolizations, left blind in the right eye

with persistent massive oral and nasal hemorrhage, and after appropriate embolizations, patient was stabilized clinically, and the ONYX was resected. She's stable now, not cured, but she's actually had an excellent clinical result. And you can see that's what it looks like.

Now that's hideous, that's not going to work. And it also, I think, points out what Dr. Walgramuth has actually admitted to, which is it's very difficult to see through this stuff. Radiation dose is increased, and identifying what to do and where to go is a real challenge.

Another such example, I think, suffice it to say a picture is worth a thousand words is this illustrative case of an extensive pelvic AVM, treated with what appeared to be gallons of ONYX, with very little benefit, and an enlarging ulcer. This was later treated by direct alcohol injection

with cure and improvement resolution of that ulcer. So, in summary, it's real simple, folks. There's no evidence in the literature that polymerizing agents have cured AVMs with an exception of a few venous predominant legions. And as I said, you could probably put Jello

in the outflow of those things and it'd work. My own personal experience is repeatedly had ONYX failures, and importantly, many patients are worsened by this treatment, and actually, their subsequent curative treatments are hampered. Thanks very much.

- Thanks again to the organizing committee for inviting me. There has been an extensive session this morning on ascending endografting. I think almost everything was said and will be repetition, but we'll still do so. What we learned in ascending endografts is that post surgery legions

are probably the best indications when we have pseudoaneurysm or bleeding in the ascending. Type A dissection is a rare indication, and ascending aneurysm actually doesn't work very well due to the fusion form type of these anatomies. Our experience is lended to 24 cases until 2017,

and you will notice that most of those cases were emergent, they were usually referred by a cardiothoracic surgery to our unit in order to treat those patients in a rather emergency situation. And in these cases we have mainly taken transfemoral approaches,

but you see that from transapical and trans subclavian also have been applied. There's some significant mortality tied to this treatment option, and this is due to the emergent character of the treatment. There were a lot of, a few type A dissections,

ruptures, bleedings, et cetera. Our device of choice has been the cook ascent device, which has been first published here, to be used in acute type A dissection, and is not current, not commercially available. We've also used a lot of customized grafts,

which is especially helpful when you need to tapered graft with a different proximal and distal diameters, and there you can use tapered grafts and just cut them to length that is, that fits well. There have been reports with these kind of customized

or off the shelf grafts that are commercially available, and trimmed to the length that is needed and experiences have been mainly very good. Main issue remains in over sizing and that is especially an issue because the type of CT for which they,

which is used for measuring the aorta is quite different. You need to know whether it's native or its graft, its gated or non-gated, systolic, diastolic, gated CT, the age and blood loss play a role in the pulsatility of the vessel, but generally I would like to say

that 20% over sizing's probably the right number, and this is mainly due to that already the pulsatility of this area of the aorta is, within 15%, relatively high. This is a case with the type A aortic dissection, you see that at the greater curvature, how the contrast goes into the dissection.

There's a cook ascent device that is delivered from transfemoral route, and you see here on the completion angiogram it looks quite nicely sealed, but what you also see is a problem that we frequently see is that the bare struts go into the valve

and cause a valvular insufficiency in this patient, so the patient required a TAAD that was done transapically, but the target valve did not stay where it was suppose to so it needed to be snared into a better position, and then again treated with an ascending TEVA. This time from the transapical

because we already had that access. And when this was done the patient could receive his, um, let me go back. Could receive this uh, Edwards, uh valve. Just to show you

that you can put a lot of these materials into one patient and maybe he would have been better off with open surgery, but I'm sure there was a reason why he was preferred for endo treatment. One of the big issues is inner curve apposition,

because the device is proximity, quite often not perpendicular, what is necessary in order to give them the radiant force to seal. And you see this from the, come picture this, images I got from other colleagues,

are about the Gore ARISE Studies. And what Gore is, um, is uh, is using here is a mechanism to meet this problem of the inner curvature, which I think is very helpful. We've been doing similar,

and been presented here ten years ago at the Veith-Symposium. We called it in situ bending, a bowden-cable principle to shorten the curve, the inner curvature. Medtronic has been working, Ali Khoynezhad is in the room.

He's been doing the physician sponsored IDE trial on this with really good results, and we hope to hear more from him. But if I look at the images, there's also the same issue of perpendicularity of the device, the approximate part,

and you see the same in other publications. Here from us, and again you see that the devices don't really deploy well at the inner curvature. I think I jumped over this case, which is about a transapical bridging stent,

because I have run out of time, I apologize for that. This is also imported for Martin Czerny, who has been on the podium showing today, the combination of Bolton NBS ascending graft, because its really what we need

in order to treat those patients, in order to get a safe landing zone. And to summarize, in my belief, the endovascular treatment of the ascending aorta is already beneficial in selected high risk patients, and those surgery lesions are the best aneurysms

will not work without having a valve attached to the ascending graft. Transfemoral delivery may not be the right route, in my belief the transapical was much more promising, and we see a significant process in the device development. Thank you very much.

- Now we all have seen one thing. We have to treat AVM's according to their classification angio anatomy. If you have something like, direct arterial venous communications, like pulmonary HHT patients, like the rare patients with inborn arterial venous fistulas,

you will never use ethanol. That's my opinion. That's an opinion. But I think most of us will agree on that. Will you? - [Audience] Yes.

- I think many of us will agree. So would you just do it for a HHT pulmonary patient, you would inject ethanol? - [Audience] No. - So, okay. And the direct arterial venous communications inborn,

they are very rare and they can be beautifully treated with plugs and whatever. These are one part on the AVM patients. Second part is predominantly venous outflow. However you say it's 2B, 3A or whatever. It's a dominant venous outflow

and you can cure them and I say cure, even in my paper there is imaging of follow up, but it's not in the abstract bar. (smiling) So you just, - (laughing)

- So you just occlude the venous outflow, as close to the nidus as you can. So I don't need ethanol for that. I don't need to take the risk for my patient. And so that leaves the type 4 small vessel AVM's. They are, even in my opinion,

not treatable with a polymerizing agent. There is a real place for ethanol. And then you you go to these difficult, more net-like, type 3 or whatever, AVM's, then my opinion is, I do it as long as possible,

with a safe agent. Like pushing in tons of onyx. And if there is something left over, or if there comes something in follow up, because we all need follow up for these patients, then you can finish it with ethanol.

That's my statement. Thank you.

- The proposition is polymerizing agents can and do cure AVMs and are now the agents of choice, ethanol is too dangerous. When I saw what Wayne had asked me to talk about, I immediately called him. And I said there are two words in this proposition

which are giving me some trouble. The first word is dangerous. In IR we do dangerous every day, especially in July. And with respect to cure in IR, mostly we just try to fix things.

Nonetheless, there are proper uses of ethanol. There are, however, some risks to the use of ethanol in medicine. First off, ethanol is a sclerosing agent and it is toxic to tissue. It denatures the proteins

of the endothelium, activates the coagulation system and produces blood clots. While we are trying to do that, when we're trying to control an AVM, it does also generate acetaldehyde and reactive oxygen species

which damage healthy tissue. It can result in endotoxin leakage, inflammatory cytokine release, and modification of signal transduction in the cell membrane and when we deliver alcohol, unless we dilute it with contrast,

we really cannot see where it goes. There are some other issues with ethanol. The first is that it's known to impair wound healing. If ulcers occur with ethanol use, they are difficult to heal. If you place skin grafts on these lesions,

they typically fail. And if you use ethanol in an area of prior surgical scar, there is a high risk of skin injury. In addition, the use of ethanol is associated with pain, it's a painful procedure.

If you deliver ethanol in proximity to a nerve, you will develop nerve injury and if you have sciatic nerve injury, that can be devastating which can take months if it all to heal. The other issue relates to the dosing

and the volume of ethanol that's delivered. If you deliver high doses of ethanol at one sitting, you can get systemic effects. Now, a slightly tipsy patient post-embolization is not necessarily a big problem, however, if the patient develops hemoglobinuria,

that can be significant. If you use low volumes of ethanol with each treatment, it requires multiple treatments. You can also get cardiopulmonary problems with ethanol. The ethanol can induce arrhythmias, it can induce bronchiospasm,

it can precipitate pulmonary emboli because of the sludge that migrates up to the lungs and you can get cardiovascular collapse with the use of ethanol. Fortunately that is rare. Other polymers such as the cyanoacrylates

or liquid embolics and their viscosity can be altered. The downside in our experience with the cyanoacrylates is that they're difficult to control, they tend to spatter.

And our long-term experience with the cyanoacrylate shows that it is not permanent and it does degrade. The ethanol vinyl alcohol copolymer or Onyx behaves as a filler. It induces a mild inflammatory reaction.

It's associated with minimal pain post-procedure and skin injury is infrequent and it is in our experience a permanent agent. There may be difficulty getting it to travel deep into the nidus and that can be a big problem,

if you just deliver the Onyx in just a push away, it will not go very far and you will leave your nidus untreated which can lead to recanalization. So, we dilute our Onyx 18 with DMSO

which makes it more easier to spread out into the distal portion of the malformation. It is somewhat harder to see when it is diluted. We also use a glue roadmap. This will reduce our radiation dose

and we don't deliver the Onyx the way the neuro-interventionalists do, we tend to deliver it much faster than the neuro people do. And if you have obscuration of your vessels by prior Onyx placement, the glue roadmap can help.

When we use Onyx without operative resection, it is an off label use. But nonetheless, when used, it does facilitate operative resection and you just have to remind your surgeons to use a bipolar bovie otherwise you will get sparking.

With respect to cure. I think cure, when we talk about it, it really depends upon our definition of cure. Polymer occlusion will result in relief of AVM symptoms. And it can cure some lesions.

Whether we are able to remove all shunting in large lesions I think is doubtful, but nonetheless, Onyx copolymer is associated with lower morbidity than alcohol. And when we look at ethanol versus polymers, the ethanol is a one-generation agent.

Whereas if we look at polymers, if we consider cyanoacrylate as a first generation and Onyx as a second generation, and squid maybe as a third, the future is pretty much unlimited for us because you can prepare polymers which will contain drugs

or other agents. So, I think the choice is you have to determine whether you want to use ethanol, or whether you want to use a polymer. Thank you.

- Great, thank you Tim and Dan, and thank you Dr. Veith, this is the first time actually we're presenting this. This is work that's been done between my fellow who's really the sophisticated one with this with his PhD, Luka Pocivavsek. Here's my disclosures, Luka doesn't have any.

Really three goals in mind when we looked at this methodology to try to assess the value and efficacy of long-term durability of necks. To identify patients that are high risk for device failure, potentially type one endoleak, device migration, failure of our proximal seal zone.

This is an example that this patient will come up through this entire presentation but someone that I treated with a rupture. Initially successful result, then developed a dilation of the neck and then needed an additional procedure

to treat a type one endoleak. Second goal is maybe to look at appropriate device selection and sizing so we can prevent these complications from happening. So as an example, I'll show you this case, which for many of us is challenging

to select the right size proximal aortic endograft. You have a reverse taper of this neck, the cone, trying to figure out whether a 36 device is best because of the 32 diameter, but you're 23 proximally and maybe this technology will be able to help us identify which devices

will do better in certain anatomy. And finally evaluate the mechanisms of the interface, the adhesion that we see between the device and aortic wall for the current technology and potentially evaluate new device development. So what is this?

What we did is extrapolate from what was known from finite element analysis and this patient, as I mentioned earlier, presented with a rupture. We were able to look at her pre-rupture CT scan and with our technique predict the area of rupture

which is what we saw on CT scan and you can see this high-stress area. So we were able to define the aortic wall that was in the danger zone for rupture, and then took that analysis and started to extrapolate that understanding to looking

at the interface between the device and the aortic neck. So what we see here is post-implant with slightly challenging anatomy. A short neck, a little bit of angulation, and with Luka's expertise, we were able to really start doing

what we call this cohesive zone method and look at doing a really statistical analysis of what happens with the device and I'll show you that a little bit more. So when you look at this equation, it tells you what is the available literature

that we know for device displacement looking at the displacement of the interface of the graft to the aortic wall, and then the contact zone. And we can alter that in the computer model to change the Newton force that exists

and get a lower adhesion and then a stricter tight adhesion between the device and the wall and see the impact that has. So this is just showing you from the CT scan looking at the vector of stress and strain that we're able to look at in this model.

And then specifically what we see when there's separation of the device and the wall, there's areas that are higher strain and stress and you can see the vector differences here versus this area where there's a stiff contact and we're able to create,

it's much less and the risk of separation of device and wall is much lower. So we're able to take certain understandings and look at different geometries, change our pressurization, have the boundary conditions appropriate

and then start to really look at the zone mechanics. So what this looks like is you have two different adhesion models here. One is with weak adhesions of the device to the wall and one is where we can specifically create stronger adhesion and how this would be done down the road

would be potentially something that you could look at with device design, development, and with the weak adhesion you can see how the device basically falls out of the this challenging anatomy and with strong adhesion it does a little bit better.

There is some migration but not to the same extent. So what we're trying to predict is who has loss of seal and can we prevent this? And one of the mechanisms that we've started to look at is whether or not when you add endoanchor technology to the proximal seal zone to prevent that migration

if we can prevent this loss of seal. This is way too complicated but you get it, this is what we're looking at computationally, and this is what we see clinically. This patient who a year and a half later, develops a type one endoleak,

it's systolic pressures that are elevated, it's more extreme, and we think that there's some loss of seal that happens just when patients' pressure goes up too high. So in conclusion, we think that this is a nice extrapolation

of what we know from finite element analysis. Can be applicable to not just understanding if we've successfully treated patients but to potentially even size appropriately and evaluate new devices. Thank you.

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