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Catheter-directed Thrombolysis | Management of Patients with Acute & Chronic PE
Catheter-directed Thrombolysis | Management of Patients with Acute & Chronic PE
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Case 3 - Right iliac occlusion | Subintimal Recanalization | Complex Above Knee Cases with Re-entry Devices and Techniques
Case 3 - Right iliac occlusion | Subintimal Recanalization | Complex Above Knee Cases with Re-entry Devices and Techniques
AngioDymanicscatheterchapterCordiscritical limb ischemiadeviceenosfootguysiliacocclusionOUTBACKĀ® ELITE Re-Entry Catheterproximalre-entry deviceSOS Omni Selective Catheterstentvessel
The Landscape of PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
The Landscape of PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
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Practice Guidelines | Procedural Sedation: An Education Review
Practice Guidelines | Procedural Sedation: An Education Review
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Studies into Equipment | Respiratory Compromise: Use of Capnography During Procedural Sedation
Studies into Equipment | Respiratory Compromise: Use of Capnography During Procedural Sedation
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Q&A- Procedural Sedation | Procedural Sedation: An Education Review
Q&A- Procedural Sedation | Procedural Sedation: An Education Review
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Cath Lab Academy Curriculum | Cath Lab Academy: An Adjunct to an Orientation Program Using an Interprofessional Approach
Cath Lab Academy Curriculum | Cath Lab Academy: An Adjunct to an Orientation Program Using an Interprofessional Approach
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Q&A- Respiratory Compromise | Respiratory Compromise: Use of Capnography During Procedural Sedation
Q&A- Respiratory Compromise | Respiratory Compromise: Use of Capnography During Procedural Sedation
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Q&A PET/MRI  | PET/MRI: A New Technique to Obtain High Quality Diagnostic Images for Oncology Patients
Q&A PET/MRI | PET/MRI: A New Technique to Obtain High Quality Diagnostic Images for Oncology Patients
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Mentice Simulator | Cath Lab Academy: An Adjunct to an Orientation Program Using an Interprofessional Approach
Mentice Simulator | Cath Lab Academy: An Adjunct to an Orientation Program Using an Interprofessional Approach
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Massive PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
Massive PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
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Submassive PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
Submassive PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
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The Case that Launched the Cornell PERT (PE Response Team) | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
The Case that Launched the Cornell PERT (PE Response Team) | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
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The Last 5 Years in PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
The Last 5 Years in PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
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UFE and Adenomyosis | Uterine Artery Embolization The Good, The Bad, The Ugly
UFE and Adenomyosis | Uterine Artery Embolization The Good, The Bad, The Ugly
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Where do we go from here for submassive PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
Where do we go from here for submassive PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
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Q&A Uterine Fibroid Embolization | Uterine Artery Embolization The Good, The Bad, The Ugly
Q&A Uterine Fibroid Embolization | Uterine Artery Embolization The Good, The Bad, The Ugly
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Why Do We Need Different Directions For Occlusions? | AVIR CLI Panel
Why Do We Need Different Directions For Occlusions? | AVIR CLI Panel
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Intraprocedure | Procedural Sedation: An Education Review
Intraprocedure | Procedural Sedation: An Education Review
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Normal Bleeding | Risk Mitigation: Periprocedural Screening and Anticoagulation Guidelines to Reduce Interventional Radiology Bleeding Risks
Normal Bleeding | Risk Mitigation: Periprocedural Screening and Anticoagulation Guidelines to Reduce Interventional Radiology Bleeding Risks
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Prospective CDT Trials | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
Prospective CDT Trials | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
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Education Strategies to Reduce Human Errors | Looking for risk in all the Right Places: The Anatomy of Errors in Healthcare
Education Strategies to Reduce Human Errors | Looking for risk in all the Right Places: The Anatomy of Errors in Healthcare
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Definitions in PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
Definitions in PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
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PET/MRI Case Study #4 | PET/MRI: A New Technique to Obtain High Quality Diagnostic Images for Oncology Patients
PET/MRI Case Study #4 | PET/MRI: A New Technique to Obtain High Quality Diagnostic Images for Oncology Patients
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Pre-procedure Assessment | Procedural Sedation: An Education Review
Pre-procedure Assessment | Procedural Sedation: An Education Review
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Treatment Options- CAS- Embolic Protection Device (EPD)- Distal Protection | Carotid Interventions: CAE, CAS, & TCAR
Treatment Options- CAS- Embolic Protection Device (EPD)- Distal Protection | Carotid Interventions: CAE, CAS, & TCAR
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Pathophysiology | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
Pathophysiology | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
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The Basics of the Cath Lab - Curriculum Week 1 | Cath Lab Academy: An Adjunct to an Orientation Program Using an Interprofessional Approach
The Basics of the Cath Lab - Curriculum Week 1 | Cath Lab Academy: An Adjunct to an Orientation Program Using an Interprofessional Approach
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Why is the Capnography Reading Abnormal- Physiology | Respiratory Compromise: Use of Capnography During Procedural Sedation
Why is the Capnography Reading Abnormal- Physiology | Respiratory Compromise: Use of Capnography During Procedural Sedation
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PET/MRI Case Study #3 | PET/MRI: A New Technique to Obtain High Quality Diagnostic Images for Oncology Patients
PET/MRI Case Study #3 | PET/MRI: A New Technique to Obtain High Quality Diagnostic Images for Oncology Patients
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Transcript

few different devices and techniques to do this so that everyone sort of again understands what are the different options available to us so you can of course do catheter directed thrombolysis

this can be any of a few different types of catheters so this is an example of a unifier when I talk to the residents and fellows and I just tell them it looks kind of like a garden hose that you poke a bunch of holes in right and you turn

it on and so that's what that looks like you're gonna give delivery of thrombolytic right into the pulmonary arteries ideally you're bathing the pulmonary arteries and you have a catheter on both sides usually on with

two N's one on normal throught normal vessel and the other on the normal vessel in the holes basically embedded in the clot the benefit of this is that you get the drug to the clot very quickly very directly

and you can do it in lower doses than systemic therapy alone the drawbacks are that there are actually no control studies for this there's no randomized control trials that have started everything is a case control series

maybe one institution versus another or within your own institution looking at several things or a registry which I'll show you a few of examples of different types of catheters our unify our Craig McNamara being the two most commonly

used another main mainstay and PE

her I couldn't help but throw this in

just talking about back device here's a patient that had a iliac occlusion the right it was very difficult to get past the very proximal plaque cap so in this case I did a sub into a we can remember I talked about that out back device it

has like a little L and upside down L that you can use to point into the vessel lumen so what I did was on the healthy side I put in a sauce on me this allows me to know exactly where the arches and where the right coming he

like origin is certainly I don't want to be out backing into the aorta deeply right so this allows me to identify where that location is once I've out backed into the vessel here then I just pre dilated and then stent it up into

the vessels so just sort of interesting case one thing since I am Austin there's a couple of places just you may or may not be aware of this is a Barton Creek it's actually not just a cross town lake not far from here it's about a seven

mile a little Greenbelt inside the city where basically you don't feel like getting your traffic your gaze definitely away from everything this is called the land bridge oops so there's a couple of guys right here

that's about probably about a 20-foot jump there's this guy right here who just took off from that ledge it's about a 40 50 foot drop I did try to get up to that part one time it's about it one foot with ledge so I didn't get the ax

courage to do it now I'm sort of happy because during the summer months it does get just dry up so what I noticed with this is this is about a 10 12 foot depth here this guy's jumped in something's about

12 to 15 deep so it's sort of interesting the the balls enos of these guys some guys are doing backflips out there there is water there so you know if you guys have a chance check it out

if you do happen to find it I'm not encouraging it excited I wanna get sued but if you want to take a jump off have fun all right thank you [Applause]

I want this to be as instructive as possible I do have some multiple-choice questions that are peppered in there and hopefully you guys feel comfortable enough to shout out answers I really don't care if you get it right or wrong so but if I teach it right I hope it's

clear what the answers are okay so and and I know the title test says that I'm going to be talking about parts frankly I think there's a lot more to talk about about PE other than parts and I'm not going to be emphasizing that

but if there's time to ask questions or I'm happy to speak about that as well because I think the disease and the treatments are really the crux of PE at this point okay so I start with something called the landscape where are

we with pulmonary embolism well you know I don't know how many of you have seen PE in the IR suite or have dealt with these patients or even have friends or family that have had a PE but I don't think anybody who's interacted with this

disease would argue with the fact that PE is a big deal why do I say that statistically speaking well there are 900 000 VTE events per year that's DVT or PE that's a lot it's almost a million now the number of deaths from PE every

years quoted to be as high as 300 000 but is around 60 150 is what we think so quite a few this affects everybody you know you might have heard of Serena Williams getting a PE Chris Bosh and Serena Williams I think had a massive PE

which I'll tell you the definition of that later but it's a it's it's something that can affect a young person and kill that young person so that's what makes it a little bit tougher than some of the other diseases it's the

third most common cause of cardiovascular death stroke mi then PE ten percent are fatal within the first hour so a lot of these patients you're not even gonna see and when you do see them you've got a big task ahead of you

because they're you're trying to rescue them from death that's basically the same statistic now if you were to take every patient who comes into the hospital and you put an echocardiogram on them and you looked at the right

ventricle their right ventricle would show some evidence of dysfunction and so that's an interesting statistic because right ventricular dysfunction is you'll see on a subsequent slide is actually a pretty big deal and is actually at the

crux the pathophysiology of PE now if you were to do a VQ scan around six months after people got a PE you would find that 1/3 of those patients actually have residual thrombus so we think that you

know PE is a acute disease but what we're finding is that it's actually a cute disease that can become chronic and a lot of people and we're actually revealing unveiling the fact that maybe a year or two years after their PE these

patients aren't doing as well as we thought so that this is a burden it's a chronic it's a chronic disease that causes a burden on their lives so this is the disease and and you know as an IR you look at this and you say well that's

pretty exciting looks like we can intervene on something meaningfully but there are some caveats we should remember first most patients have low risk PE s I'll define that in a little bit but these patients don't need an

intervention they just need anticoagulation to the best of our knowledge that says all this this group needs sub massive PE I'll spend quite a bit of time on and it's a very controversial topic and there's a

lot of different attitudes between interventionalists and non interventionists about sub massive PE when you get a massive PE patient this is the patient that's crashing and burning most of them should receive

systemic thrombolysis which is an IV in the arm and a drug through their vein it's the fastest thing you can do and it doesn't involve corralling an IR suite the team for the IR suite or a surgical team and as I just said there's a wide

range of attitudes regarding treatment aggressiveness so I'm not going to go

so my name's Heather I'm a nurse in interventional radiology at NYU Langone health in New York and I am the clinical resources for our department so what that means is I'm responsible for individualizing our education to meet the needs of our department and one of

the first things I wanted to look at when I took on the role was our procedural sedation practices and how we can improve by enhancing our knowledge this presentation includes many of the lessons and concepts that I learned

along the way that I think are really important to understanding how to effectively administer procedural sedation so our learning objectives are going to be a review of the guidelines pre-procedure assessment components

including airway assessment pharmacology of the medications that we give and intra procedure assessment so this is the 2018 AAS a practice guidelines for a procedural sedation by non anesthesiologist has everyone seen this

good great as so this is especially important because as you'll see the American College of Radiology and Society of interventional radiology were involved in its development so this is our guideline and I think it's really

important to look at this look at the practice recommendations and see how they align with your own practice and if there may be some changes you need to make first thing you always want to look at when you're reviewing any sort of

literature whether it's evidence-based guidelines or maybe just a review article is you want to look at the methodology that the author used to create the guideline so anybody know why that's important you just shout it out

so if I want to write a guideline for procedural sedation I could find a bunch of studies or review articles that fit my point of view and use them throw them at the bottom and that would be that but even if I use for an demise control

trials which are considered the gold standard of experimental research those randomized controlled trials could be poorly constructed randomized controlled trials so they may have introduced bias at some point into the study

that's skewed the outcome and the findings so you really want to make sure that the authors of the guideline that you're looking at appraise the research that they're using to support their recommendations and that's what the

aasa' task force did so they used randomized control trials and observational studies and then they categorize the strength and the quality of the study findings so as you're going through you'll see that statistically

significant was deemed a p-value of less than 0.01 and outcomes were designated as either beneficial harmful or equivocal equivocal meaning this findings were not significant one way or the other and then they also used

opinion based evidence from experts so they surveyed members of their task force and they did take into account some informal opinion from message boards and letters to the editor so I think a good example here is one of

their recommendations about capnography so they did a meta-analysis of randomized control trials that indicated that the use of continuous and title carbon dioxide monitoring was associated with a reduced frequency of hypoxemic

events when compared to monitoring without capnography and then you'll see at the end of the recommendations this category so for this particular recommendation they labeled it as category a1 - B evidence and what that's

telling you as category a means it was a randomized control trial which is great it was a level one meaning it's a high level of strength and quality and B is telling you that there was statistically significant findings that demonstrated

benefit to the patient now another recommendation that you may see as you're reading through would be the NPO guidelines so if you look at any of the literature about NPO recommendations it's really all expert

opinion because all of the evidence has shown equivocal findings so for example one of the studies they looked at compared the outcomes of patients who had clear liquids one hour prior to the procedure versus two hours and they

found no change in the outcome I think it's important when you're a provider and you're looking at that because you're gonna base your judgment calls on the evidence so you may have a patient come in who had tea up until one hour

prior to their procedure and you have to make a decision whether or not you want to cancel or proceed and you could look at the findings of the literature that shows that there really hasn't been a proven difference in outcomes so you may

decide to just do the procedure versus capnography there's very strong evidence showing it's beneficial to the patient always so I think this is a real big take-home point of why we do everything we do about procedural sedation all of

our assessments and enhancing our practice as a sedation is a continuum and practitioners intending to produce a given level of sedation should be able to rescue the patients whose level of sedation becomes deeper than initially

intended pre-procedure our assessment

physiology knowing that we want to measure true ventilation let's kind of dive deeper into the equipment issues so looking at some studies here this is a

study that compared the different techniques for interfacing capnography with adult and pediatric supplemental oxygen masks in really the main finding of this study was regardless of the measuring device that was used this

signal for the of the entitled carbon side it varies as the oxygen concentration varies especially in very high levels so levels and adults that are less than 15 if you have a good location of your sampling you're going

to get a pretty accurate sample of your carbon dioxide but what this study found is an extremely high flow rates and that's adults greater than 15 liters per minute and in Pediatrics greater than 8 liters per minute that's when you're

gonna start to see some data quality decrease and I'm gonna tell you a little secret if you have an adult that's on 15 liters per minute and you're having oxygenation issues your problems are bigger than that okay no one should

really be on that much oxygen right you know there's a certain point where you have to change the ventilation or maybe they have a perfusion mismatch or they need peep or they need some other physiologic intervention camp Nagato

masks they provide really stable measurements without significantly breathing with commonly used oxygen flows and these are capnography masks that were designed for that not the rigged up ones that we sometimes you'll

have creatively used in the past and because and if you've seen some of the masks coming by some of because of the open design the carbon dioxide measured with the High Flow oxygen rates if we need to use higher flow rates you make

it artificially lower readings a greater again greater than 15 liters per minute and they may not reflect adequately like that gradient may be much bigger than compared with lower flows so using a standard o2 mask the one we pick up off

the shelf in combination with our you know nasal oral scope monitor can provide us with really good monitoring because it's going to be right close to the patient where they're exhaling but you have to watch the risk of patients

rebreathing okay so this is a little bit of a change in practice because we've recommended this for a long time now you put your sampling line on you use your regular oxygen but just by doing these studies we've found that

patients are rebreathing carbon dioxide more than we thought just something to be aware of you're looking at your baseline and if your monitor is calibrated appropriately and I've been doing

for 15 years and I've never seen a Capon ography monitor you know when you turn it on and it calibrates itself where the baseline was not zero okay so usually it's something related to the patient rebreathing and such so again food for

thought this is just the comparisons okay so when we have patients that are breathing I know it's a little hard to see from the back so we're comparing the end tidal co2 concentration between devices and at our supplemental oxygen

rates as we're going up on our flow rates so with patients that were normal ventilating their co2 on a blood gas was 39:39 on the monitor so very very little change and that's actually true for the cap one mask the oxy mask and the

different capital lines that's what they looked at they looked at for when they went up to five liters per minute 38 plus or minus point five 38 plus or minus point seven and then no change for the capital line the two different

capital lines so again nothing's statistically significant as far as using five liters per minute and same thing with ten liters per minute with normal ventilation really no change in the monitoring from no oxygen to oxygen

where you start to see some changes in normal ventilation with using all four of those the cap one the oxy mask and the capital lines very very little difference even at 20 but when you looked at the regular oxygen mask that

wasn't designed for it that's when you see the statistic differences and certainly the same goes true for patients who are a hypoventilating and hyperventilating to using the proper equipment again with normal flows and

even higher flows you really don't see a whole lot of changes and this is just a this in a graphical form here so we have patients with a simple mask on the first column cap one and then the oxy mask and you can see the simple mask between no

flow and flow there's a difference in our siege of co2 readings where the cap one and the oxy mask not as much of a difference right and then the same things when we I'm sorry I'm the right when we

turn the oxygen on and the flow rates go up minimal difference in the concentration that we're monitoring there so careful attention to positioning the mask where the mask is located on the patient the inspired

concentration of carbon dioxide and the waveform itself right the quality of the waveform should be looked at very carefully and then looking at the location the gas sampling should be right over where the patient is exhaling

right you want to avoid having any distance between the two of those which I know can be a challenge in the environments that you're working in so

are there any questions yeah yes that's a really good sure so the question was do you have any rules or guidelines in my institution about how long the procedure can be before you start

talking about anesthesia versus sedation is that right and positioning prone supine we did come up with a guideline with within our department we looked at a little bit of research but honestly was more expert opinion just best

practice and experience I in in general I would say if the procedure is 3 plus hours the patient should know they're going to be on the table not asleep for three plus hours and talk to them about what that means and if they're ok with

that I just think again that comes into setting realistic expectations that's one of the reasons actually that we're very interested in using Dex med otama Dean because that's going to be a better

drug for those longer procedures first was giving functional and versed for four hours it's just not it's not appropriate but you know and some people would say we'll just get an anesthesiologist them but a lot of these

patients are really thick so in our institution anesthesia is just really super regulated and they require all of these clearances for their involvement no matter what they're giving sometimes they'll require all these clearances and

they give exactly what we were going to give so you know it's it's really a juggling act I would say in our department we really just make sure the patient knows what the expectation is and then we'll usually say to the

provider to if if something goes like if anything looks a little concerning during the case we're stopping and they have to be ok with that and they are they really are but that took a lot of work to get everybody on board with that

type of communication yeah we don't know so they I know I think Sloane is anyone here from Sloane no I think Sloane has with dedicated anesthesiologists they work really closely with them and it's easier for

them to get cases scheduled they will give us they will assign us an anesthesiologist for the day but if we don't have any anesthesia cases they get reassigned somewhere in the o.r and it's a different analysis every time it tends

to be the same group some are stricter than others some will have a patient say I really want anesthesia and we can call up the provider and there they say no problem let me do a quick chart review whereas the next day the provider goes

no absolutely not send them for clearances that's a little tricky yeah right so what I showed you is from the american society of anesthesiology i am not affiliated with them at all i just think they bide non anesthesiologist

sedation so i rely heavily on what they say and they recommend waiting till peak effects so i would look at the pharmacokinetics so for versed it's 3 to 5 minutes so i would wait at least 3 minutes before your readmit a stirring I

think a good example with that is when diazepam with the sedative of choice the on the peak effect for diazepam is 1 minute so when midazolam came onto the market there were a lot of adverse outcomes

with patients because providers administering it weren't familiar with the pharmacokinetics and assumed that the peak effect for versed was the same for diazepam so in theory you could give a patient in 5 minutes 5 milligrams of

versed so by the time that fully hits them they could be in a negative 5 on your raft scale so you know just look at those pharmacokinetics look at that peak effect and I would use that to drive your dosing scheme Atlee that's what I

do and I think since we've done that we've seen better meet info cities and better safety outcomes yes okay yeah we don't do that we do one thing with uterine fibroid embolization swear they'll do a superior mesenteric block

but otherwise we don't do any other type of regional blocks but I have read about that I think that's really are the IR providers giving the block okay right I've seen two with uterine fibroid embolization we'll do an epidural in

advance some I think some institutions or some literature exists about that it's interesting it would be interesting if the IR providers could actually give it though I'm not sure if that's kosher in the anesthesia world but they're

certainly qualified to do it they they do already kind of do it really but so I mean that's certainly something interesting and if you have a provider that is comfortable taking that on and their institution I think it's worth

looking at because anything that's sort of I think mixes things up and and provides a different Avenue especially for high-risk patients is worth looking into definitely yes I believe it yeah

mm-hm right so I'll just repeat what she said so just jumping on the talk about blocks so in her institution they the providers to administer blocks and I think you said

coleus estas Tamizh and PTC's and biliary dream placements they'll use that and it will decrease the amount of sedation that's required sedation being versed and fentanyl that's required during the case which like yes like you

said is really great for patients who are already on opioids previously and habit aller ins yes [Music] something right so we again he left same provider though had a patient on Groupon

or Fein and it was our first experience within about a year ago and it was terrible and she did not have realistic expectations going in of how sedated she would be and she was very very unhappy

afterwards so we talked a lot about that and in that guideline I had mentioned that we made about when we involve anesthesia and when we don't there's a caveat about that that says that if a patient is on

methadone or buprenorphine that a discussion needs to take place making them aware that they will probably not feel very sedated but we will try our best and if they're not comfortable with that we reschedule the procedure with

anesthesia but they have to know going into it that they they may not feel completely sedated and we just keep that open and honest communication but we haven't really come up with a scheme of what's best we did actually try with her

we had her come in one day having taken her buprenorphine the day of the procedure and she seemed okay with that and then we tried having her go off of it so that the receptors wouldn't be blocked she was not happy with that

experience so that's really when a person like that probably would do great with propofol but we can't give propofol so you know if the and if the patient tells us no then we just reschedule with the anesthesia

right - hmm right right right you could at least if they're if they're on an opioid uh if they're on people nor Fein then in theory they should respond to the verse said you could go heavier hand it on the

versed just to get them sedated but they will probably still feel pain but it they hopefully won't remember it that's true I you know with the Richmond agitation sedation scale that's not going to fit every patient that's a

really good point I gave a patient seven of versed during an adrenal vein sampling and she was just talking my ear off I got I fed are you okay you know do you need me to give you anything else no no I'm good I'm good and then I wheeled

her out we got her in the recovery area and she goes sit over I said yeah she said wow I don't I don't remember anything the power of her said that that was like a true and music effect I hadn't seen that so strongly in a

patient before but if you if I had done you know I was documenting that she was a zero it looked like I wasn't doing much for her but then I was putting comments you know patient comfortable denying needing any more sedation so

won't fit every patient so it is good to look at that but yeah as far as the buprenorphine I mean it's it's it's tough yeah if they have an addiction specialist I would say talk to them and they might be

able to come up with a scheme that works for them and if there's a lot of pain expected afterwards those patients are gonna have to be on parenteral opioid therapy they'll probably have to stay you know if you're in a hospital they

would have to stay overnight so those are all things you have to consider yeah yes hmm yeah I'm like it so Adam and Alexa are nurse practitioners that we work with and I'm looking at Adam because

this is actually was a very hot topic for us in the last six months so we actually cheat we met with our sedation committee that's run by that in a physiologist who's blocking us from using pres of X and discuss with him

that in the protocol that guides our practice it's said that you did the timeout and then gave sedation but Ari anesthesiologists don't do that right so they intubate the patient and everything and then and they and then the provider

comes in and does the timeout right before the puncture or incision so we talked about to him about how well if we're gonna do the latency to peak effect it's not enough time right so we do now bring the patient in and start

sedation right away our orders are put in in advance I know some by the attending or the Li P so we have a PRN dose and with an a certain number of occurrences and a titrate to a certain Ross scale

yes yeah so and that our anesthesiologist mentions that our providers are present but it's it's a certain use of the language I think it might be like direct observation or immediately available and our providers

are immediately available it's up to your hospital so our profit our providers aren't like down the street on their way in to work with coffee and street clothes and we're sedating they're they're just down the hall maybe

or the way our department looks is we have a control area and it's like the you know the Central Station and you can see all of the rooms so they might be in the Central Station but just haven't gone in to do the time out yet that

being said I always talk to them before I bring the patient in and say what's the goal Rath and I address any concerns that I have and I think people think I'm a little kooky when I do that for every case but it I think it works really well

and I think the providers really like it so we just already start from the Gecko our line of communication I tell them the patient seems really anxious this is my plan what do you think agree disagree yes the procedural if does the procedure

list or the Lak but I've sedated the patient so the patient if you look at what Jayco describes in the universal protocol it's ideal if they can participate in the timeout however not required because then when they do the

timeout they're right there stabbing them with lidocaine so I like to you know I mean I would argue that by starting I would argue about that by starting at the sedation earlier and getting the patient into a comfortable

state you're more safe because you're doing the dosing appropriately according to the a sa yeah correct right right right

okay I think it's important to say though it's not about getting around Joint Commission this is what Joint Commission says you may feel uncomfortable with it and that's okay

but it is what our accrediting body says is okay we're also not intimating the patient and paralyzing them like an Asst the anesthesiologist is now having said that it's not like we walk the patient in and we go oh I think you're mr. Jones

we throw you on the table there is an initial timeout that's done with the nurse and the technologist and the other people in the room shaking his head yes as so the acceptable amount of time after reversal

yes so if it happens if it happens mid procedure you need to it's I believe the language the a sa uses that you have to have a discussion amongst the care team about whether or not you're going to proceed if it happens after the

procedure in the recovery area or it happens mid procedure and you abort then it has to be at least two hours before you discharge that patient or move them back to their unit where they came from because of that recitation effect and

because you can have really adverse effects from sedation like flumazenil can cause serious delirium I had a patient like that one time it was it was awful and it can cause serious cardiac arrhythmia so at least two hours if you

continue with the procedure I would just make sure everyone knows that you have to be really careful with recitation effects and and all of the adverse effects that you'd be looking at yes I think one more question I'm sorry

with hyperkalemia I have come across I want to say it was in perioperative guidelines when I was looking at the labs that we do cuz we do a lot of unnecessary labs in our department you guys might - I feel like we just really

overdo it I believe the perioperative recommendations are to check a serum potassium if the patient has a reason to have hyperkalemia however right if their hyperkalemic and

they develop a cardiac arrhythmia you know could hypoxia also precipitate that cardiac arrhythmia the results from the hyperkalemia maybe I just went in I wouldn't take an ounce

I would I would consider hyperkalemia severe hyperkalemia and unstable patient because that patient could go into a fatal arrhythmia so I would correct that before you bring them into an elective Percy what's often an elective procedure

so if you're doing a fistula gram you know right five point yeah why are we will go up to five point eight we personally will go up to five point eight because a lot of times they're hyperkalemic

because they're fish too less clothes now and we need to open it right so just again it I don't think there's ever going to be any hard and fast data that you see it's all about making sure everyone knows this patient has a serum

potassium of five point eight we're going to be really closely watching the ECG monitoring yeah thank you everyone thank you so much [Applause]

so just as Michael said we've taken a lot of time to develop this program and I think having the background that we have in cath lab as an arti a technologist and as an RN we've pretty

much realized what we need to build this program especially coming from general radiology and entering the cath lab you know I didn't know what a sheath was so if I would have had a program like this I think I would have been a little bit

more successful I'm transitioning into the cath lab the way most of our learners have so what I've done and what Michael and I've done we've reached out to a few of our interventional cardiology partners in the system who

were very passionate about developing a program like this not only does it help our learners and our future staff it does help our cardiologists and our physician providers and fellows who are working with the staff hoping to be a

seamless flow so what we've done is our infant stages of brainstorming you know what do we need to produce a great Academy what do we need to focus on as staff as physicians and so we asked our physician partners what do you want to

see when we're building this program well they want to see new to service or staff in general kind of hitting the ground running right so we want to teach them how to scrub properly how to use the equipment properly how to manipulate

wires how to manipulate catheters learning how to set up power injections anticipating what's coming next during a procedure during a complicated case so those ideas were really essential in developing our program and trying

identify what we can do first for our learners and how we can make them feel comfortable some of these radiology technologists that are coming in from general radiology have no idea what they're coming into there's a little bit

of a difference just knowing that some nurses that do attend the schooling may have heard of you know what an EKG is and what a waveform is whereas some of our red tags have not so we really needed to hone down on the basics okay

so these are some brainstorming ideas that dr. Lee and I and Michael had put together and said here's the pathway we want you to follow follow okay so our again we went from a six-week program now down to a three-week program and

incorporating simulation and so we took a lot of what we wanted to and like what we would recover in our first second and third week and here we're going to go into more detail so really week one as

so I actually work mostly in

interventional radiology in CT and ultrasound which is actually on a different floor that where we have our cath lab and I our stuff upstairs so that I our doctors are each going between two floors and one of my biggest

concerns is when we're doing moderate sedation the nurses are down in CT and ultrasound it doesn't matter how many comorbidities the patients have the aasa' is always three or less because they want to justify doing it downstairs

with just one nurse and the procedure list and I just and then you have somebody who obviously needs to be having anesthesia involved and now the anesthesiologist or the nurse anesthetist they get a circulating nurse

with them and I'm just wondering is there a cut-off that anesthesiologists or nurse and necess use for saying okay the a SA when it's this you have to consult with an anesthesiologist before you proceed with a nurse just giving

sedation that's a great question and that's institution unfortunately that's one of those things that is like institution dependent policy and procedure politics finances you know sometimes you'll see patients who really

are in a sa three four or four and a half that are made to be an a sa to write you know so they could be done during off-hours without anesthesia unfortunately it's a symptom so the organization's ever sit together and say

let's look at this globally for the patient safety and if we're doing sedation in this scenario we should still have somebody there who's trained to do the backup for that person I can't speak to your organization's policies

because I don't know them I know that they recommend catalog' Rafi I do know that the avenues to look at would be the Joint Commission in the anesthesia patient safety foundation you know for guidelines and again guidelines are just

that they're guidelines they're not mandates especially you know when institutions develop policies procedures protocols and such I do know on the third bullet down is we have a whole implementation project that we've rolled

out so one of the questions in addition to technical questions we get is how do I go to my institution and kind of change practice a little bit and usually the question is like implementing capnography but it it's a three-part

series that we did on how to implement change in an organization who are the stakeholders who are the champions who can you really talk to that would create change and whether it's the chief of anesthesiology is the person who's your

roadblock or your best friend is it the VP in nursing is it the safety committee you know cuz it takes one adverse event one Sentinel event unfortunately sometimes to change culture it takes more than that I know I know we're

trying a little at a time though but think it was a great comment in question was just made in our institution anesthesia kind of hit at this because the nurses were concerned about what she was just saying and so they worked with

the directors of like IR cath lab the medical directors to you say let's come together and figure out you know if it's a four it doesn't mean that every four needs to be you know it can be given sedation can be given by nurses but at

least get an assessment or things like that and in our institution nurses are able to if they feel like they needed anesthesia consult they can do the anesthesia console it doesn't mean they're gonna have anesthesia but

anestis you can tell you what to give and what not to give mm-hmm but that's that's what they're trying to do they have done for cath they're doing it for IR too and that is I forget them term for it but that's a team collaboration

and so and I must said where we work we actually screen the charts ahead of time because we have some really remote places and some not as remote and it's like the litmus test you know somebody with a BMI 55 is not going to be done

down the street they're gonna be done where emergent resuscitation is right upstairs if needed and same thing holds true like in our institution like anybody can call a patient safety stop meaning like I don't

feel comfortable with this let's not go forward and and again the procedure lists are another list of those champions because procedure lists they care about their pain you know they don't want to see adverse outcomes and

they're so focused sometimes on what they're doing that they kind of black you blank out on some of the peripheral factors and no one wants to see something bad happen on their watch so the procedure lists can be

instrumental in getting better monitoring or advocating for advanced levels of care or at least support for the nurses to have there's another question in your experience are the waveforms the same as far as a

ventilated patient versus a non ventilated patients have you seen any discrepancy in the actual performance that waveform itself yes and no okay so so I'm ventilated patients somebody who's really hyper dynamic I mean I've

seen like you could see sometimes their heart beating you know like just some of the little fluctuations or oscillations for the most part no difference if the non-invasive ventilation patient is getting monitored really right where the

gas is being exhaled like right here you may see some other you know and somebody is intubated so if there's secretions you might see like a little you know blip and such but when things are perfectly working the way they should be

working in both the intubated patient or the patient with an artificial airway versus not the waveform should be spot-on but if you're not seeing that is it a COPD or is it somebody who's got you know bronchitis in there yeah if

you're not seeing that full square waveform the question should be why not is my equipment not working good question great questions did the sign-in sheet make its way I know the spiral bound notebook is over

here but please do make sure that you put your name your email address and you'll be emailed because so you could fill out an evaluation and make sure that you get c e for attending this opportunity today I hope you guys

enjoyed it I hope you took something out of it I hope this just wasn't the basics for you today I hope that there was some value added in to coming today please do hang around we'll be here we'll be in the exhibit hall I know that there's

going to be many more events that are have this afternoon but the rest of the team will be here and we really do look yeah I love working with nurses that are providing sedation's I feel like you're the you're my people you know but you're

the people that are doing this day in and day out and you really are that that patient safety advocate and I feel like when I speak to a roomful of people that you guys go out and teach your precept ease and create change that's going to

impact patient safety so thank you for your attention today and thank you for attending [Applause]

I'm the FDG is have a radio pharmacy located on the second floor no New York State does allow nuclear medicine

technologist and nurses to inject the con the FDG isotope I know in other states one in particular is is New Jersey the the nurses are not allowed to inject isotope and the technologist has to do it also in addition certain

isotopes and certain scans the ducts have to inject the contrast like the the cervical Lin scintigraphy and some so my question has to do with discharge instructions so just like you give them that little card that they keep with

them so they trigger some radiation alarm and a bridge or on a highway do you give them discharge instructions about if there's small children at home that they're not sitting in their lap for extended period what kind of

instructions do you give on discharge after these patients so we when they come in coupled with the screening forms that they fill out we have some instructions attached to it and does that does have

the discharge instructions but we reiterate to them you know if they have small children or babies and pregnant women and just try to keep their distance for the next 12 to 24 hours just to until the really activity has

wear off so the FDG is like two hours almost for the half life FDA FDA has 60 minutes 116 minutes half life and usually by 12 hour by the 12 hour period they're mostly background radiation okay thank you

we had they have a written instruction like it's like a packet that we give into the market that we do to the patient and the patient have accessed to the web portal that they have and they can be the instructions from there

this is correct so betta bar is still investigational for the most part the only way you can build for it is two different scans you build for a pet and you build for our mr so you've got to get approval for both what you are not

going to get reimbursed for is the registration and that's where it gets a little bit challenging because then you need a radiologist who is both certified uncredentialed to read a pet and an mr so right now most institution bill it as

two different procedures so that's why you that's how we get the approvals just a little information on the side I went back to this case study because I forgot to tell you that in order for the PET CT to have as clear image as the pet MRI

the pet portion I mean the city portion and the pet city would have to be done diagnostically and that this would expose the patient to radiation three times that's why they prefer the pet MRI because yeah the reason why we do it if

we do it mostly for for for pediatrics and it's it and it's because of radiation because you know like our my team is saying you you are going to have this patient have constant follow-up so if you can reduce the amount of

radiation they have from a younger age as we all know it work in radiology DNA injuries occur when you're younger then more is more severe than than later our MRI the pet MRI injection they're all lined with lead and our MRI the pet

MRI room is actually lined with lead so we don't really have Needham let aprons we don't know we don't have wear aprons they are allowed to go to other appointments after they are pet MRI usually with the FDG most of the

radiation after the Tessa's finish is gone they're not more than what not more than radioactive than background radiation so they are are safe to be around people yes that's more for precautionary

measures yes no they go straight to the PACU so we our MRI table is detachable we have an area for where we keep our inpatient bay area we have a structured ready for them to go into right after the test and the

anesthesiologist and if they are Pediatrics the pediatric nurse is with them and they go straight to pack you do like probably like probably less than ten a week right now some weeks we are busy we do for how we do that much some

it varies like we'll do three or four but we are trying because the reimbursement that's one of the big issue our institution is actually eaten eating the cost for some of these to provide a patient with less radiation

especially or pediatric population we have one pet MRI machine for the whole institution three at the main campus we have two we have multiple and other regional sites so the yes

no less than 15 GFR except for the EU vist less than 30 then we notified the radiologists eeeh this is harder to so you this is the it's a linear contrast as opposed to the Catalan bettervest which is

macrocyclic so it's easier for the body to get rid of well there yes well they're only they're already getting dialysis so it's really not much of a harm yes we do patients on dialysis but we make sure the dialysis is done within

24 hours after receiving the contrast yes um sometimes you know you just have it to have it we don't require it for all the tests if you have it we have it we check if it's already in the chart we

acknowledge it you know we don't require for outpatient we don't require but in patients we do all right anything okay so Bernie pet/ct the scanning time for pet/ct is about 30 minutes to 45 minutes Patsy pet/ct is about 30 to 45 minutes

with the pet MRI sometimes they they order dedicated pet MRIs so that is a little longer you have to take note that we do a whole body scan whole body scans for even just for a regular MRI is at least an hour so we try to eliminate

just you know having them have to have to or point to different appointments and just one waiting room one waiting time so that cuts down the response for the patient themselves yes we do for adults it's 12 for the

whole body and then for the pet brain it's about 10 if I'm not mistaken and then plus or minus 10% and then the pediatric doses are cultured calculated base of their height and their weight and there are all protocol by a

radiologist because we have a lot of whole-body protocols we have the bone survey actually that's about 30 or 40 minutes and yes that's an hour and then we have longer whole body protocols diseases

specific and sometimes they try to depends on what the patient's diagnosis is we have whole body scans where they have to check the bone marrow and that needs to be from tips of the toes and tips of the fingers and that can be a

challenge especially if the patient is tall because that has to be in sequest sequestered and sequential patient and positioning is also a challenge alright thank you so much thank you thank you so much

[Applause]

of the simulation and mentis simulator that we purchased that our system and purchased it's used in conjunction with

the cardiologists and first second third year cardiac fellows interventional fellows who also have the opportunity to practice on this but what I really liked about this and what really surprised me is how real it

is for learners and for our texts that come in our technologists using this piece to move the C arm to move it left to move it right injecting contrast which is actually air but you know we want to say it's contrast I'm moving the

table understanding how to pan the table how to move the CRM there's a lot of different functions that they can use collimation magnification so this board this panel is pretty much what they're going to do on a daily basis so this is

extraordinary and the picture next to it shows us some 3d dimension three-dimensional pictures of the coronary arteries laid out in different projections so depending on how you move your C arm you'll be able to see the

different angles of your coronary arteries again this is live real-time simulation 3d dimensions so we don't have to actually inject the contrast to visualize our coronary arteries in our a Horta there's a function button that you

can push and it automatically displays the three dimensions so it makes it easier for us to identify those arteries without having to inject and show the different views so it's fascinating in more pictures that showing doctor Lee

came who came to Phoenix Banner University Phoenix to help demonstrate so this is our first week after we've introduced the mentis to our learners and had them play with some of the functions again following up with dr.

Lee's visit he's the one that questioned our staff our learners and reiterated what Michael and I have taught in the first week so basically just understanding and reiterating everything that we went through and having our

learners hear it again from the physician what does he want how does he expect his staff to participate in how do his how does he expect his so what are the expectations of our learners so he was really forward he

asked them great questions they answer them because we taught them but we also showed that he also was able to show them some techniques that they as physicians would like the learners to know right so um he is the clinical

expert obviously so it was really nice to see them interacting together and answering questions again just another photograph of one of our learners using the mentis and showing the actual x-ray view on the left and showing the 3d

dimension on the right these are this is our photograph so we took these pictures during our last week of our programs so this is our final wrap-up putting it all together so we basically took them to the lab we we borrowed one of the labs

we asked our operational leaders if we could borrow one of the labs they weren't using that day and we came in and we set it all up we wanted to make sure they knew how to open a tray how does that how to set the table how to

set the back table how to prep the table how to get their power injections their med rads or their assists put together so we really went from A to Z during this wrap up final simulation study so our learners gound and glove they put on

their PPE and we did have the mentis underneath the drape so they were able to drape as if it was a real patient and also manipulating those wires so we had our cardiology fellow interventional fellow first I think it was first year

in second year who came to assist they were gracious enough to come in and help us assist that piece while Michael and I could focus on the learners helping them navigate through that lab calling out for supplies calling out for wires

calling out for stents calling out for balloons so it was pretty realistic and I think I think our learners really enjoyed that this is just another view of our table being set up one of our learners

scrubbed in she was an RN and she was learning kind of moved the table again you don't really get to do that in real life but in simulation all is game so they got to play and here's an image of our cardiology fellow it's not playing

so what it shows is the simulation of the angio angiogram of the coronary arteries so while we inject the contrast you can see the arteries filling in that simulation unfortunately we can't seem to get it to play again more pictures of

me teaching them how to move the table and the position that they needed to be in so and so we also wanted to make it

about massive PE so let's remember this slide 25 to 65 percent mortality what do we do with this what's our goal what's

our role as interventionalists here well we need to rescue these patients from death you know this it's a coin flip that they're going to die we need to really that there's only one job we have is to save this person's life get them

out of that vicious cycle get more blood into the left ventricle and get their systemic blood pressure up what are our tools systemic thrombolysis at the top catherine directed therapy at the right and surgical level that what

unblocked me at the left as I said before the easiest thing to do is put an IV in and give systemic thrombolysis but what's interesting is it's very much underused so this is a study from Paul Stein he looked at the National

inpatient sample database and he found that patients that got thrombolytic therapy with hypotension and this is all based on icd-10 coding actually had a better outcome than those who didn't we have several other studies that support

this but you look at this and it seems like our use of thrombolytics and massive PE is going down and I think into the for whatever reason that that the specter of bleeding is really on people's minds and and for and we're not

using systemic thrombolysis as often as we should that being said there are cases in which thrombolytics are contraindicated or in which they fail and that opens the door for these other therapies surgical unblocked demand

catheter active therapy surgical unblocked mean really does have a role here I'm not going to speak about it because I'm an interventionist but we can't forget that so catheter directed therapy all sorts

of potential options you got the angio vac device over here you've got the penumbra cat 8 device here you've got an infusion catheter both here and here you've got the cleaner device I haven't pictured the inari float

Reaver which is a great new device that's entered the market as well my message to you is that you can throw the kitchen sink at these patients whatever it takes to open up a channel and get blood to the left ventricle you can do

now that being said there is the angio jet which has a blackbox warning in the pulmonary artery I will never use it because I'm not used to using it but you talk to Alan Matsumoto Zieve Haskell these guys have a lot of experience with

the androgen and PE they know how to use it but I would say though they're the only two people that I know that should use that device because it is associated with increased death within the setting of PE we don't really know you know with

great precision why that happens but theoretically what that causes is a release of adenosine can cause bradycardia bradycardia and massive p/e they just don't mix well so

much more controversial so you it was pretty clear that we have to rescue

massive PD patients from death but with these statistics what are we supposed to do with sub massive PE well are we supposed to prevent mortality it's gonna be hard to do if the mortality is only 2 to 3% because you're trying to really

improvements of a very low statistic are you trying to reduce the rate of hemodynamic deterioration that's a possibility what about long-term disability if you remove clot upfront

will these patients do better six months one year or two years down the road frankly we don't know the answer to any of this and the reason is that the pytho trial made things quite difficult for us to interpret the pytho trial was the

trial that was going to answer all uncertainty this was a trial where it took some massive PD patients in that high-risk intermediate category and randomized them to receive a bolus of tenecteplase which is similar to TPA but

is not the same versus anticoagulation alone what did it show well it showed there was no difference in death between tenecteplase and placebo so they actually gave a placebo drug so that no it was a double blinded

study now if you look at the next line though a lot more patients decompensated if they receive the placebo than that's not to place this is not a bad thing you know it's not it's not great when you have to intubate somebody or initiate

pressors so if you can avoid that outcome that's it that's a pretty good thing so maybe it is the right thing to give systemic thrombolysis in the setting of sub massive PE problem was this the bleeding you look down here

there was an eleven percent rate of major bleeding in the tenecteplase arm there was a two percent rate of intracranial hemorrhage so now we've got this therapeutic window that's hard to interpret so we seem to be improving

outcomes from an efficacy standpoint but then we're also increasing the rate of bleeding so basically what we've sort of coalesced around is that systemic thrombolysis has a questionable risk benefit profile because the rate of

bleeding and the rate of really serious bleeding is makes us nervous so is that an opportunity for catheter director thrombolysis and I'll call this the poster child for Catherine throwing license if this is how it worked every

time we might have a homerun so this is gentleman looked terrible well still in the sub massive category but breathing at 35 times a minute hypoxic had his main PA systolic pressure of 60

millimeters of mercury you look over here and there's this large clot in the right upper lobe go to the left side and then there's all this clot in the left lower lobe as well so what do we do we put in bilateral infusion catheters this

can be an E Coast catheter it can be a standard catheter these areyou nafeez catheters have side holes starting from here and ending it's hard to see but there's another radiopaque marker somewhere down there on this side there

and somewhere over there and between those markers you have multiple side holes and those are put up inside the clot so you're dripping TPA at a rate of about 0.5 to 1 milligram per hour and you're getting it directly into the

clock that's the theory and so after 20 to 24 hours of that you know you're given 20 to 24 milligram of TPA that's compared to 50 or a hundred that you get was sitting with systemic thrombolysis you get something

that looks like this where the pulmonary arteries look pristine the PA still the systolic pressures come down the patient feels great now the skeptic would look at this and say well if you just tried some heparin and you just infuse saline

would you have the same result and frankly if you were to conduct the experiment you might find something interesting or not interesting but we never have conducted that experiment but you know I'll tell you a little bit

about the ultimate trial if I have time I don't want to go to overtime though

let me show you a case of massive PE

this launched our pert pert PE response team 30 year-old man transcranial resection of a pituitary tumor post-op seizures intracranial frontal lobe hemorrhage okay so after his brain surgery developed a frontal lobe

hemorrhage and of course few days after that developed hypotension and hypoxia and was found to have a PE and this is what the PE look like so I'll go back to this one that's clot in the IVC right there and

that's clot in the right main pulmonary artery on this side clot in the IVC clot in the right main pulmonary artery systolic blood pressure was around 90 millimeters of mercury for about an hour he was getting more altered tachycardic

he was in the 120s at this point we realized he was not going the right direction for some reason the surgeon didn't want to touch him still to this day not sure why but that was the case he was brought to the ir suite and I had

a great Mickey attending who came with him and decided to start him on pressors and basically treat him like an ICU patient while I was trying to get rid of his thrombus so it came from the neck because I was conscious of this clot in

the IVC and I didn't want to dislodge it as I took my catheters past it and you see the Selective pulmonary and on selective pulmonary angiogram here and there's some profusion to the left lung and basically none to the right lung

take a sheath out to the right side and do an injection that you see all this cast of thrombus you really see no pulmonary perfusion here you can understand why at this point this man is not doing well what I did at this point

was give a little bit of TPA took a pigtail started trying to spin it through aspirated a little bit wasn't getting anywhere he was actually getting worse I was starting to feel very very nervous I had remembered for my AV

fistula work that there was this thing called the cleaner I don't have any stake in the company but I said you know I don't have a lot to lose here and I thought maybe this would be better than me trying to spin a pigtail through

the clock so the important thing about the cleaners it does not go over a wire so you have to take the sheet out then take out the wire then put the cleaner through that sheath and withdraw the sheath

you can't bareback it especially in the pulmonary circulation the case reports are poking through the pulmonary artery and causing massive hemorrhage and the pulmonary artery does not have an adventitia which is the outer layer just

a little bit thinner than your average artery okay so activated it deployed it and you started to get better and this is what it looked like at the end now this bonus question does somebody see anything on this this picture here that

made me very happy on this side this picture here that made me feel like hey we're getting somewhere I'm sorry the aorta the aorta you start to see the aorta exactly and that that was something I was not seen before the

point being that even though this doesn't look that good in terms of your final image the fact that you see filling in the aorta and mine it might have been some of the stuff I had done earlier I can't I can't pinpoint which

of the interventions actually worked but that's what I'm looking for I'm looking for aortic blood flow because now I've got a hole in that in that clot that's getting blood flow to the left ventricle which starts to reverse that RV

dysfunction that we were concerned about make sure I'm okay with time so we'll

individually into each one of these trials but I want to just point out to you how busy the last 5 years have been because it has really caused a

resurgence in our interest in both treating PE better and what the gaps are in our knowledge so I will point out in 2014 this was an inflection point for 10 years we didn't have a major trial actually more like 12 or 15 years we

hadn't had a major trial in in PE and pytho was a 1000 patient study that informed us about how systemic thrombolytics interact with sub massive P and I'll go through the data that same year

catheterized thrombolysis is everybody familiar with catheter at the thrombolysis for submasters before Pease that's totally off the grid okay good well this was the first time we had a randomized trial for catheter directly

thrombolysis with some with some massive PE only problem was it was 59 patients in Europe so and that's all we have as far as randomized trials for CDT this is my soapbox issue I'm sorry if you've heard me say this but that's that's my

big goal is to try to change that 2015 had some follow-on CDT trials 2017 this is when we started thinking about the long term effects of PE on patients both of these studies started to examine the issue where a year after the PE patients

are not normal if you did a for example this elope long term study almost 50% of patients had an abnormal cardio pulmonary function test one year later 2018 we started to experiment with the dosage that we're

administering during CDT that's the optimized trial and we saw the first trial completed for a mechanical device called the NRA flow trailer which I'll show you later in the talk as well so that was an exciting inflection point as

well the extract PE trial which uses the indigo cat 8 device to aspirate thrombus in pulmonary embolism we just completed enrollment this year the future is hopefully bright for generating more data the PERT consortium registry is up

and running and is hopefully going to help us aggregate data and make better decisions and then you have a couple more devices coming in and I'll tell you our efforts to try to really improve the knowledge base on what CDT for sub

massive P that's the P track trial that's the last bullet point there okay

patients may be asking you is like what about adenomyosis and I've been hearing something about that which is not exactly fibroids right it's a different entity though the symptoms could be kind of the same and for the years and years

and years we wouldn't have any options for patients who had adenomyosis in fact the only option for patients with adenomyosis is surgery but adenomyosis can coexist with fibroids and sometimes patient presents with adenomyosis alone

so we've had some studies now that have looked at that and although the data is not as robust and not as awesome as for patients with fibroids we do provide a performing bolas Asian for those patients with particles that are little

smaller than what we would use for fibroids with results as you're seen there before now the only other new thing that's on the market and it's not so new to you guys that are probably doing radial in femorals anyway working

in cardiac labs and IR labs it's actually what we call the trophy if you go back one slide for me mr. a the person and press play then we will be able to see that radial access I do not work for Merritt they don't give me a

dime I just thought that this was a good video is there volume on that at all if not I can just talk about it and really what it says is that if you need to a radial UFE or have radial axis for a uterine embolization patients just love

it more they and especially like patients that are already just intimidated they don't want you going near their groins at all they actually could just lay on the table we don't have to put up we don't put a Foley in

they just get a radial access the same way that you would just be starting in a line except we have special types of radial catheters and and sheaves to do that and I don't offer a radial access to

patients who are too tall for our catheters or if they've had multiple prior radial access and don't have an intact ulnar artery to complete their hand but it's much like any of that femoral access that you would normally

see they make special hydrophilic sheaths now they're called from this particular company slender technology where the inner diameter of the sheath essentially the sheath is the same like five French on the outside but they have

cored out the inside so it's a bigger diameter so it's a five six so on the outside it's a five but it will take a six French in the inner inner lumen and you know my practice we do more than 80% of all our arterial punctures with a

radial access and everybody here comes dr. Sean Deroche Nia who is the leading author of that paper for SI R and one of my esteemed partners so most patients are able to get up and walk out if you are go from a radial access the access

is actually closed with just a radial band and the complications of having a hematoma or having the patient's bleed out those just all go away but radial axis have their own complications so I'm not here to say that it is not that but

in our practice we found it to be safe and effective our patients want it and it's become like a practice differentiator so if you're working in a practice that don't do radial you EFI's right now you should mention it because

if you're in a population where the other providers are only doing femoral then you will automatically get the patients that only want that so here's a patient that had a radial access you can see a catheter that is coming from the

aorta while you can't see that it's not up and over the bifurcation but maybe you do can see that and there's a catheter in the uterine artery with the characteristic

shape of the uterine artery and the characteristic curlicue vessels of of the fibroid and on the left you can see the Imogen for beforehand and the Imogen on the right of post embolization where there is stagnant flow in the main

uterine not main uterine artery in the horizontal portion of the uterine artery for greater than five cardiac beads and again there's there's no reason that you have to know that level of detail except that you're scrubbing in but if you're

in the audience you're looking at this you're like dr. Newsome I see an air bubble there as well then I'd say good because because I do see it too so you can see the preimage and you can see the post image for pre and post embolization

these these procedures can be quick these procedures are very very rewarding and and I love to do it

massive PE well let's remember this at this point including all the trials that preceded the pytho trial almost 1 700 patients have been randomized into systemic lytic trials for some massive p yep all we have on the CDT side is the

ultimate trial of 59 patients non-us single was a single trial that's where this initiative is coming from to improve the data this trial called P track and I have preliminary information that we just made our first breakthrough

in fronting from the NIH so very excited that we have a planning grant to potentially get this thing moving so P tract is basically designed to be a randomized control trial of catheter directed therapy versus no catheter

directed therapy for sub massive PE to really try to answer this question just like the pytho trial tried to do for systemic thrombolysis in the setting of catheter Ida thrombolysis and this time we're not just using surrogate endpoints

we're not you the rvw ratio is probably not even gonna be calculated but what we want to know are these are patients doing better in one arm or the other and we're going to use outcomes that are important to both patients and providers

400 to 500 patients most likely looking at sites all across the so but we are still in this time when

questions comments and accusations please hello this topic is very personal to me I've had it actually had a UFE so this is like one of my big things I work in the outpatient center as well as a

hospital where we perform you Effy's and frequently the radiologist will have me go in and talk to the patient it's from a personal perspective one of the issues which it may just have been from my situation was pain control post UFE

whether you normally tell your patients about pain control after the UFE someone say we are all struggling with this yeah oh it's not what's your question is going to be okay good I'm gonna get doctor Dora to answer Shawn the question

is what do you what do we do with this pain issue you know what are you doing for the home there at Emory there you know and a lot of practices we we don't rely on one magic bullet for pain control recently we've been doing

alternate procedures for two adjunctive procedures to help with pain control for example there are nerve blocks that you can do like a superior hypogastric nerve block there's there's Tylenol that can be given intravenously which is seems to

be a little more effective than by mouth there's there's a you know it and a lot of times it's it's a delicate balance right between pain post procedural pain because you can often get the pain well controlled with with narcotics opioid

with a pain pump but the problem is 12 hours later the patients is extremely nauseous and that's what keeps her in the hospital so it's a it's a balance between pain control and nausea you can you can hit the nausea

beforehand using a pain and scopolamine patch that that'll get built up in the system during the procedure and that kind of obviates the nausea issues like I said that the the nerve blocks the the tile and also there are some other

medicines that can can be used adjunctive leaf or for pain control in addition to to the to the opioids so the answer the question is there are multiple there multiple answers to the question there's not one magic bullet so

that helped it did one of the things that I tell the patients is that you know everyone is different and yet some people I've seen patients come out and they have no pain they're like perfect and then some come out and they are

writhing in the bed and they're hurting and they're rolling all around what and I always ask the acid docs are you telling them they could possibly have you know pain after the procedure because some have the expectation that

I'm going to be pain-free and that's not always the case so they have an unrealistic expectation that I'm gonna have the UFE but not have pain what I also tell them is that the pain it's kind of like an investment right and

this is easy for a guy to say that right but but it's it's an investment the worst part the worst pain you should be feeling is the first 12 12 hours or so every day I tell my patient you're gonna be getting better and better and better

with far as the pain as long as you is you follow our little cookbook of medicines that we give you on the way home and I want you to make sure that you fill these prescriptions on the way home or you have someone fill those

prescriptions for you before he or she picked you up in the hospital and lately we have been and I see that you're there as well lots of other little tricks that are out there right and again there are all

little tricks so ensure arterial lidocaine doctor there is near alluded to and if you're on si R Connect you may it may spill over on some of your chat rooms here people have been using like muscle relaxant like flexural or

robertson with some success but just know that we don't have any studies that tell us how that's supposed to do so when i have someone that is like writhing in pain i just use everything so i do it superior hypogastric nerve

vlog and i actually will do some intra-arterial lidocaine although not so much lately i have been using the muscle relaxant but i will warn you that i've had two patients with extreme anticholinergic effects where they are

now not able to pee from that so you know where we're doing that balance act I see that you're there can I take that question here first just so we're we're doing the same thing we're using the multimodal just throwing all these

things at people and we're trying the superior hypogastric blocks but we're collaborating with anesthesia to do that right now do you all do your own blocks or do you collaborate with anesthesia we do our own blocks okay it isn't it is

not that difficult I would tell you that but again it's kind of like you know you got to do if you start feeling better and then you're like we don't really need them we'll just do it on our own okay thank you again yes what's the

acceptable interval between UFE and for IBF oh that's a your question what is the interval between UFE and IVF so if you wanted to get pregnant yeah and can you have a you Fe and then have an IVF like how long would you have to wait

wait and tell you before you can have that the IBF it I guess it really depends on the age of the patient because we know that that the threshold for which patient tend to have that inability to conceive

is around 45 years old so you know it did below the you know below the age of 45 the risk of causing ovarian failure or or the inability to conceive is significantly less it's zero zero to three percent so I would say that you

know you probably want the effects of the fibroid embolization to two to take effect it takes around 12 months for these fibroids to shrink down to their most weight that they're gonna they're going to shrink down the most I wouldn't

say you need to wait 12 months to put our nine vitro fertilization there's no good there's no good literature out there I don't believe that's your next and so I would say just remember that if you came to my practice and you said you

wanted to get pregnant I will be sending you to talk to fertility specialists beforehand we do not perform embolization procedures as a way to become pregnant there's no data to support that but if you saw your

gynecologist and they said let's do this then I'm sure they'll be doing lots of adjunct things to figure out what would be an ideal time then to for you to have IVF and if I dove not having any data to inform me I would ask you to wait a year

and what will be the effect of those hormones that they gave you if for example a patient has existing fibroids what would be the effect of those hormones that IVF doctors prescribed their patients yeah so fibroids actually

can grow during pregnancy so I would say that most of those hormones are pro fertility hormones so I would expect that maybe you can see some of that effect as well yeah alright if you have any other questions you can grab me oh

you're I'm sorry go with it okay yes we we have time I don't want to keep anybody here for that so I have a two-fold question the first one is post-procedure can you use a diclofenac patch or a 12-hour pain

patch that is a an NSAID have you have any experience with that and your next question my second part of the question is there a patient profile or a psychological profile that tips you that the patient is not going to be able to

candidate because of their issues around pain so they're two separate but we have in success sending people home that first day so I'm looking to just make it better I haven't had experience with the Clos

phonetic patch it's in theory it seems ok you know these are all the these are they're all these are non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs so there are different potency levels for all of them they you know they range from very low

with with naproxen to to a little bit higher with toradol like that clover neck I think is somewhere in between so we found that at least I found that that q6 our our tour at all it tends to help a lot so with that said I I don't have

much experience with it with the patch in answer to your second question the only thing I can say is there there is a strong correlation between size of fibroids and the the amount of a post procedural pain and post embolization

syndrome so there really you know we often say we don't really care too much about the number of fibroids but the size of the fibroid is is is should be you know you should you should look at that on pre procedural imaging because

if it gets too big it may not be worth it for the patient because they may be in severe pain the more embolic you put into the blood supply's applying the the fibroid the the greater the pain post procedural pain

are there multiple other factors that would contribute to pain but that's that's one aspect you can you can look at post procedurally on imaging okay thank you very much yes ma'am hi what what kind of catheter do you use

to catheterize the fibroid artery when you pass by radio access yeah so over the last three years the companies have been really very good about that so there are a few things that I without endorsing one company or the other that

you need to make sure that the sheath that you're using is one of those radial sheets a company that makes a radio sheath you should not use a femoral sheath for radial access so no cheating where that's concern you may get away

with it once or twice but it will catch up to you and you need a catheter that is long enough to go from the radio to the to the groin so I'm looking for like a 120 or 125 centimeter kind of angled catheter whether it's hydrophilic the

whole way or just a hydrophilic tip or not at all you can you can choose which one in our practice most of us still tend to use a micro catheter through that catheter although if I'm using a for French and good glide calf and it

just flips into like a nice big juicy uterine artery then I may just go ahead and take that and do the embolization if the fellow is not scrubbed in as well so thanks a lot but they make they make many different kinds like that and more

of those are to come all right I'm you can please please please send us any other questions that you have thanks for your time and attention and enjoy the rest of the living

and you can see on this t1-weighted image that increased area of enhancement which is the area of synovial thickening you actually see this on MRI beforehand and there it is located over the lateral aspect of the knee on the axial image

and so what we're doing sorry in the medial aspect of the knee so what we're doing here on the angiogram is and you solve these leg angiograms where everyone doesn't really care about these Janicki lit arteries they're really

important when you have sfa or popliteal occlusive disease because they serve as a collateral source but otherwise and people have arthritis they can be a real pain and pain in the knee if you will so this is a this is the superior medial

genicular artery it always drapes over the femoral condyle and you'll see here on this image you don't really see very much once we get into the vessel look at this it almost looks like a small about a cellular carcinoma like when you're in

the liver you get this tumor type blush vascularity that's what we're looking for that corresponds to the patient's area of pain and then after embolization this is what it looks like takes a very small amount

of embolic we're using maybe 0.4 2.6 sometimes 1 CC at most of dilute embolic that we're injecting this is another case again before and after if you look here on the right and then on the left you don't really see much until you

select the vessel out once you get into that super medial vessel you can see how much enhancement there is so in our clinical study of 20 patients this is what we did you'll see on the bottom here we used embassy and 75 micron in 9

patients and 1111 patients got a 100 micron and I'll explain why we upsized our particles so initially we wanted to go very small because that's what dr. o Cano had done in Japan but then we wanted to actually up size our particles

and I'll explain this here in our complications so like all clinical studies the purpose of doing really good clinical research is because this is early and we don't know if they're going to be complications and it's always fun

when you're the first one to figure it out and you tell patients I don't really know what's gonna happen and this is what happens so 13 patients had this kind of skin discoloration over their knee now we knew this because we've been

doing knee embolization for about 10 years in bleeding patients not necessarily arthritic patients so we had seen this before but none of these patients in this clinical study went on to have any alteration of the skin and

it resolved in all patients there was some minor side effects from basically medications and one small groin hematoma but there were two patients who developed plantar numbness over their great toe so under their great toe

basically in the medial distribution of their tibial nerve they ended up getting plantar numbness and this is believed at least in our experience to probably be related to non-target embolization to the tibial nerve the tibial nerve

probably gets its blood supply from many of these generic arteries so we decided

checking on the patient periodically at least every five minutes and monitor the

response to verbal commands if a verbal response isn't possible come up with some technique with the patient ahead of time if they're gonna give you a thumbs up or thumbs down if they're gonna close one eye raise an eyebrow whatever they

want to do come up with that come up with that with them in advance and use that to guide their to their ability to maintain their airway because sedation is going to be the main indicator of eventual respiratory depression if

that's going to occur it's not going to be your respiratory rate or your other dimo dynamics it's going to be the level of sedation we we have this problem a lot one of the nurses came up to me the other day and said the doctor told me

not to talk to the patient during the procedure I said no that's just pull this up I always say pull up the guide line this is Society event you can say this is your Society they told me I need to assess the patient every five minutes

and assess their response to me there has to be some sort of verbal response the patient doesn't have to move their arms around or give you a hug it's it's really just saying I'm okay Richmond agitation sedation scale

this is what we use at NYU this is a scale essentially to measure the level of sedation our goal is to try to get patients into this negative three sometimes it's not always possible but we want to use this to determine whether

or not the patient is slipping into a deeper level of sedation and again that's important because this is going to tell us that the patient is then at risk for respiratory depression or apnea if they transition into a negative 4 or

negative 5 ventilatory depression and airway obstruction are two different problems I just think it's important to know this because it's gonna require two different rescue mechanisms although you will usually see both of these happening

at the same time I only saw one time where it was true ventilatory depression it was in the neuro suite does anybody do wadda tests yeah okay so I had only I've only seen this once but we gave the amytal and the patient had complete

depression of their respiratory center so she did not breathe at all we had to do really deep stimulation in order to get her to take a breath so we could have done all the airway maneuvers in the world it wasn't going to help her we

had to wake her brain up and tell her to take a breath if she didn't we would have had to have intubated her that would have been the only way to rescue her because as far as I know there's no reversal for the amytal that we give bag

mask ventilation this is the cornerstone of basic airway management it's not a skill easily mastered I think a lot of people will sometimes fly through this because you do this in ACLs if you worked in an ICU you did this a hundred

times but what's different between this and a sedation setting and in a code situation is the patient and the code is already dead the thing that's not going to save them is is you're good you know Ambu bag skills it's gonna be the CPR

what's going to save your patient who is respiratory depressed in a procedural sedation setting is effective airway skills because according to the H a ventilation via an Ambu bag may be just as effective as ventilation via an

endotracheal tube that's huge so you can buy your patients some time while you're getting the reverse or you're calling for an anesthesiologist to come and intubate them if you're not able to effectively

ventilate them and they progress to a CPA as I'm sure you're all aware that just is a major indicator for eventual poor outcomes the patient could experience some airway techniques that are helpful you can do the head tilt

chin lift or a jaw thrust in patients what you do want to be mindful of obviously if they're in c-spine precautions if you are doing the procedure with procedural sedation which I would caution against then you would

just go right to a jaw thrust you're obviously not going to manipulate their cervical spine and capnography I know everyone knows capnography I'm a huge huge fan of capnography I can't stress it enough I think does everyone use it

does anyone not use it you don't use it okay okay just know if you are having trouble getting your institution to provide the finances if that's their concern as I just showed you in the beginning of the presentation there is

very strong evidence showing that there it's a positive outcome for the patient if something was to happen one day with a patient and and maybe it was to go to litigation although guidelines aren't meant to be a

hard and fast rule likely it would be brought up in the litigation they would say why do all of these organizations recommend capnography but it wasn't used in your institution and then they may say well we haven't seen any cost

benefit and then they would say well but there is cost benefit it's level a one evidence so it's really really useful and most importantly pulse-ox is going to report an average saturation overtime so you are going to see some lag so it

could be one to two minutes before you actually see a change in the pulse ox and your patient may not have been breathing for those one to two minutes so once the pulse ox does go down it's going to go down real quick and also if

you want to look at some additional resources I think the air and capnography toolkit they did not ask me to say that but I do think it is actually really really great and it was put out

steer another thing I just want to say to make the capnography work for you I think in our institution we've been using it for a long time but it doesn't always work we use this nasal cannula that's supposed to have this nice little

reservoir but it's really not great because it's cold in the room so the plastic will stiffen and it flips up use some tape or I just put a simple mask over the nasal cannula and then you'll get your waveform you'll have the the

carbon dioxide captured I think there's some fancy masks out there I think Medtronic is may be releasing a mask that does a capnography which will be great but in the meantime just make it work for you and make it work in the

beginning of the procedure sooo as you're giving more and more sedation potentially you're not then worrying about futzing around with making the capnograph you work nonpharmacologic methods I think are really important so

we get this a lot Twilight are you giving me propofol it's the same as a colonoscopy right or you're gonna knock me out right right so these are really important conversations to have in the prep area when you're getting your

patient ready make them aware they're not going to have these things and be honest with them if they're adamant they want to be asleep they want the Twilight you reschedule there it's I have found it's not worth trying to convince them

to do something that they don't want to do because they're just gonna write a really nasty letter later and and I don't and I don't blame them because I think sometimes we're not honest and we think we're doing the right thing and

you know don't worry we'll get you through it were you gonna be really comfortable and sometimes patients aren't going to be comfortable and that's okay and if they're not okay with that then we have to do what we need to

do to make sure that we're meeting what their needs and that leads into setting realistic expectations I always tell patients you might not see me the whole time I'm gonna check on you at least every five minutes if you don't see me

it's because I'm right behind you tell me what you need every five minutes I'm going to say are you okay if you need to be a little bit more asleep if you're in pain you're having anxiety tell me and I'll give you more medication this is a

collaboration and I find that that really eases a lot of the anxiety especially them knowing you're right behind them the whole time if they can't see you like their tented you know without a halo I think yeah the covered

halo we were talking about before if they can't see you it gives them a lot of anxiety if they think no one's in the room and there's just a provider they can't see doing a procedure on them sedation scripts my attending left but

we had a little bit of a healthy argument about this so I talked to him about scripting the way that we talked to patients about sedation so we're all saying the same thing all the time and he said you know I'm an attending and I

I didn't do a residency and a fellowship to be a robot and all these things and you know it was and I he loves giving me a hard time about this stuff so it was kind of funny because he's doing he's currently engaged in a grant project

that's looking at our work flow throughout the institution and he has research assistants that are working on it with him and one of the things that they did was they went on the floor with some of our residents who are consenting

the patients for procedures and she the very next day in a meeting it was totally unrelated it said to him you know they're saying the wackiest things to the patients some of them are saying don't worry about it you'll be asleep

yeah yeah it's like whatever you had last time and they're really not setting them up with realistic expectations so when we get them at least our impatience when we get them down stairs for their procedure they're totally confused about

what they're gonna have done and then I think they feel very anxious because they're about to go right into the room and now we're telling them you're not going to be asleep you'll you'll be able to talk to me during the keys so you're

not saying everyone has to be a robot and say exactly the same thing but I you may want to talk to your staff about hitting the same take-home messages so that they're not hearing all different descriptions of sedation throughout

their stay all right thank you everyone

Kerry go into kind of a refresher from

this morning for you all this is a video from a liver biopsy and let's just start that no we actually don't know how to play this from the clicker okay

so this is just a short clip to show normal bleeding everybody bleeds and all the procedures that we do involve placing needle in the patient so we are going to have some amount of bleeding and it can range from seconds to minutes

and hopefully it's a fairly minimal amount of blood loss typically what happens is the needle is inserted into the patient the body detects the injury clotting mechanisms are activated hemostasis is restored which sounds

pretty simple but as you may remember from this morning there are a lot of different mechanisms involved that make that happen and we wanted to just provide a brief overview for those of us that have been out of nursing school for

a little while so we thought it would be helpful to start with just a brief generalized overview the first step obviously is the endothelial injury platelet plug forms the coagulation cascade starts we get a clot and then we

have the Ambo thrombotic control mechanisms and the fibrinolysis in our practice we're really just concerned with the first two we really just want to make sure that the patient has the ability to clot so here's a fairly

simplified version of the coagulation cascade the factors are the Roman numerals and to keep it simple we've just included a few of them so we have a wound occurring the endothelial cells release the tissue factor which combines

with some factors we get factor 10 release produces thrombin and eventually fibrin we also have this amplification loop that's happening at the same time so we need some of these factors we need the thrombin for this all to work

so at this point we have thrombin being generated by the pathways more being created by the amplification process and that thrombin then binds to these platelet para scepters up here and that initiates cofactors assembling on the

platelets which makes them sticky causing them to adhere to the site of injury when the platelets are activated we have the adenosine diphosphate molecule or ADP that's also binding to some receptors specifically I didn't

include the p2y on this but the p2 y 12 which then eventually winds up activating this molecule down here that molecule is normally this complex I should say is normally folded over but when the platelet is activated it

unfolds and it allows the fibrinogen to bind and then that secures the platelets to each other so with the medications that we run into in our in our practice one of the ones that you learned about this morning where the direct factor 10

inhibitors we typically see Xarelto and Eliquis the most in our practice and as you can see by the red stop signs there are two places that these inhibitors work here and here they bind to the thrombin while the while the drug is

circulating in the blood which essentially removes that factor Xa from the equation if we don't get thrombin we don't get a thrombus we don't have a plat no these things do have a relatively short half-life and in our

practice we do not monitor these with routine labs the direct thrombin inhibitors Pradaxa is the one that we see the most work one step further down the chain these are actually interfering with the power receptors so they bind to

those and that prevents the platelet activation and aggregation these can be monitored with a PTT although research tells us that it doesn't necessarily correlate with the actual levels circulating in the

blood and the different methods of sampling aren't consistent so this is not something that we routinely monitor with labs in our practice as well and I do have agents and clinical trials on here they were in trials I believe at

the time we started doing this research but as we learned this morning some of them are currently available and these do have a short half-life so their effect is relatively limited and they are reversible so the inhibitors that

work on this p2y twelve receptor are actually binding to that receptor and this is irreversible so this is going to affect the playlet for the life of the platelet seven to ten days and as we learned this morning there's a certain

amount of turnover happening all the time so there are always new platelets being produced so if we stop this we don't necessarily need to hold it for the entire seven to ten days but it is something that's going to take a while

for the patient's body to overcome and the thing that we wanted you to note about this this is an inhibitor it's an inhibitory effect so it's not necessarily captured that accurately by lab values the platelets are still there

they just don't work as well and so you can do a platelet count but it's not going to show you how well those platelets are functioning so again this is another medication that doesn't really get captured with lab values

sorry little operator error here on the remote control so the Cox inhibitors aspirin is the one that we're probably most familiar with same kind of thing aspirin is permanently affecting the platelet over its lifespan of seven to

ten days the ibuprofen the naproxen or Aleve the effect is much more limited for these medications so we're going to hold these again these are medication that will not necessarily be accurately reflected by a lab value so in our

practice we rely on oral confirmation of the last dose we literally ask the patient when was your last dose of advil when was your last dose of aspirin and we can compare it to our procedural guidelines

we also talked about these a little bit this morning we have the vitamin K antagonists warfarin is the one that you hear about you also hear about it called to mannan by the other name the liver is producing these clotting factors which

are reliant on a reaction that happens with vitamin K these things actually work by interfering with the vitamin K cycle now if you put more vitamin K in this reaction can still happen or if we add FFP that already has these factors

in it the patient has the ability to clot so this is reversible we can also choose to not reverse patients that are on warfarin Nikhil talked a little bit about the bridging that we sometimes do with patients that are on warfarin but

this is one that we still encounter pretty frequently and typically it is monitored with the pt/inr and we are currently screening for angiogenesis inhibitors in our practice these are used to treat different kinds of cancer

the one that we are primarily concerned with is the imbruvica the mechanism of action how this causes bleeding isn't fully understood but it's thought that since these inhibit the development of endothelial cells those cells aren't

available to release the factors needed to start the clotting cascade and especially if these are used in conjunction with anti platelets or anticoagulation they can really have a it can really have an effect on the

patient's bleeding risk and they can also cause thrombocytopenia thank you

these are our prospective CDT trials it's a lot to go through them so I'm not going to suffice it to say that the only one of these that is randomized is the

one in the top left the ultimate trial with 59 patients the rest of these are single set are single arm studies the optimized trial was randomized but the key arm it did not have was a control arm so all it did was vary the amount of

drug but there was no control arm to tell us how are people doing if they just get heparin well and I'll show you one result from these trials that is the most important result and that is up from the ultimate trial at 24 hours CDT

catheter to thrombolysis reduces the RV to lv ratio to a greater extent than heparin alone what does that mean so you saw all those pictures with the big dilated right ventricles our surrogate measure for right ventricular

dysfunction is the ratio of the diameter the inner diameter of the right ventricle to the left ventricle what we found in this study was that that ratio got reduced to a greater extent at 24 hours in the CDT arm compared to heparin

alone that means that CDT seems to reduce our V dysfunction faster than heparin now importantly 30 days later the echos looked identical so really it's a question of time which is not surprising what we've noticed in

our practice is that patients feel better faster okay I'm gonna go through the rest of this because I'm out of time but I want to give you a little bit of a sense of where we're going because there's bleeding associated with CDT and

maybe I'll show you this that in the Seattle to trial there was an 11% major bleeding rate now this was a pretty conservative definition but there were some serious bleeds and there were no intracranial

hemorrhages in this study but we have realized that CDT is not risk-free it's not like we've all of a sudden gained all of the advantages of systemic thrombolytics and none of the disadvantages now the rate of

intracranial hemorrhage seems to be about tenfold less but it does happen about 0.2 to 0.4% of the time the rate of major bleeding seems to be about 5% which is about half the rate of major bleeding that we see with system or

thrombosis so bleeding is still there it just doesn't seem to be as frequent so that's where some of these other devices are coming in then our a float Reaver the the the extra penumbra indigo cat 8 device and so the the float Reaver is

has actually gone through the full trial and the results are about to be published what is this thing well it's this pretty big hose which is about 20 French and it goes through the right heart and goes up there and it takes

this clot and literally aspirates it out and these are some of the things that will come out and that's sort of your post picture right there the data showed something similar to what we saw with the catheter directed thrombolysis

trials they had looked at 106 patients are vlv ratio was reduced again there's no comparator arm here so this is just the device on its own with a 3.8 percent adverse event rate and so now we're talking about mechanical devices that

don't use a clot-busting medication therefore you're gonna you can expect less bleeding but you're trading some of that off for a mechanical device that can cause injury to either myocardial structures or to the pulmonary artery so

that's something we have to be highly cognizant of as they're introduced into the market this is the penumbra cat 8 this is from Jim Benenati publication basically showing a couple things that's the separator that is the actual

catheter and that's the sheath back there so you've got poor profusion because of a clot in the inter lobar pulmonary artery and then at the end of it you have better perfusion for lung down there so we actually just completed

enrollment into the extract PE trial 120 sub massive PE patients the same efficacy endpoint you have to remember that has been established by the FDA as a way to get approval this is not the final

study nor should it be the final study when we evaluate these devices so to summarize sub massive PE what does the data not tell us CDT probably reduces the RV to LV ratio at 24 hours that is the main outcome that I want you

guys to remember from the ultimate trial it's associated you didn't see this data so don't worry about that we do see major bleeding and sometimes rarely but sometimes we see intracranial bleeding with CDT as well so what we're missing

from catheter directed thrombosis for sub massive PE is what are the clinical outcomes the RV to LV ratio is a surrogate outcome what about death what about clinical deterioration what about recurrent hospitalization what

about recurrent VTE how are people doing in the long term are they walking as well as they were before we don't know any of this none of the data right so far can tell us any of this information so where do we go from here for sub

strategies so some things that we have

in place right now our peer review Grand Rounds CPOE this is one of my one of my favorite process improvements is is making the right thing the easiest thing and you do that through standardization of processes so that's standard work so

that's your order sets that's the things pop-ups although you don't want to get into pop-up fatigue but pop-ups help our providers for little gentle reminders to guide them to what's right for the patient and to cover everything that we

need we need to cover to ensure the safety of our patient so recently in the fall of last year we had a TPA administration err that occurred it involved a 69 year old patient who two weeks prior had had some stenting in her

right SFA she presented to our clinic when our clinics with some heaviness in her leg and some pain and when she was looked at from an ultrasound standpoint it was determined that her stents were from Bost so she was immediately taken

to the cath lab and it was after angiography did indeed show that there was clot inside these stents they did start catheter directed thrombolysis in the cath lab they also did started concurrent heparin often oftentimes done

with CDT what's usual for our institution is that we have templates that pull in the active problem list for a patient in this case the active problem list or a templated HMP was not used had they

used the template at agent p they would have found that the second active problem on this patients list was a cerebral aneurysm so some physicians will tell you some ir docs will tell you that's an absolute

contra contraindication for TPA however the SI r actually lists it as a relative contraindication so usually we're used to when you when you start a final Isis case you know you're gonna be coming in every 24 hours to check in

that patient in this case we started the the CDT on a Thursday the intent was to bring her back on Monday the heparin many ir nurses will know that we will run it at a low rate usually 500 units an hour and we keep the patient sub-sub

therapeutic on their PTT although current literature will show you that concurrent heparin can also be nurse managed keeping the patient therapeutic in their PTT which is what was done in this case so what ended up the the

course progression of this patient was that so remember we started on Thursday on Saturday she regained her distal pulses in her right leg no imaging Sunday she lost her DP pulse it was thought that it was part of a piece of

that clot that was in the the stent had embolized distally so they made the decision with the performing physicians they consulted him to increase the TPA that was at one milligram an hour to 2 milligrams by Sunday afternoon the

patient had an altered mental status she went to the CT scan which showed a large cerebral hemorrhage they ain't we intubated to protect her airway and by Monday we were compassionately excavating her because

she me became bred brain-dead so in the law there's something that's called the but for argument so the argument can be made that this patient would not have died but for the TPA that we gave her in a condition that she should not have had

TPA for namely that aneurysm so this shows how standard work can be very important in our care of our patients and how standard work drives us down the right way making the easiest thing the safest thing so since that time

we've had a process improvement group that we've established an order set specifically for use and thrombolysis from a peripheral standpoint and then also put together a guideline that was not in place so it's some of that Swiss

cheese that just kind of we didn't have a care set we didn't have a guideline you know we didn't use our template so all those holes lined up and we ended up with a very serious patient safety event so global human air reduction strategies

oops sorry let's go back these are listed in a weaker two stronger and some of what we're using in that case is some checklists so we developed a checklist that needs to be done to cover the

absolute contraindications as well as the relative and it's embedded in the Ulta place order that the physician has to review that checklist for those contraindications and also there to receive a phone call from pharmacy

just to double-check and make sure that they have indeed done that that it's not somebody just checking it off so we have a verbal backup sorry so the just

that's background let's talk about what I mean when I say massive sub massive low risk high risk intermediate risk low risk all these definitions they're

actually pretty precise and so I think we need to be on the same page for that so when you see this what do you call it saddle saddle is a reasonable one large because there's I'm not sure automatically did that but would you

call it a massive PE how many would say yes this should be called a massive PE okay how many no okay it's not a big deal I'm not remembering faces but this is not necessarily a massive P I'd be surprised

if it wasn't but it's not necessarily because I haven't given you a key piece of information the hemodynamics massive PE is all about hypotension so what does that mean so this is from the American Heart Association in 2011 a massive PE

is an acute PE with sustained hypotension meaning a systolic blood pressure of less than 90 millimeters of mercury for greater than 15 minutes or requiring inotropic support okay so doesn't matter where the clot is

doesn't matter how much clot there is if you're hypotensive for greater than 15 minutes then you fit in the massive category okay sub massive PE okay you have a normal blood pressure but your right ventricle is dysfunctional so

either by echo CT biomarkers such as BNP or troponin your EKG shows right heart strain basically your right ventricle shows some measure of duress but it has not totally decompensated to the point you're starting to get hypotensive and

I'll give you a pathophysiologic explanation in a couple slides low risk basically means that you have no hypotension no RV dysfunction no myocardial necrosis so you have clot in your pulmonary arteries absolutely but

your right ventricle is acting normal and you have no issues with hypotension that's 60% of pease that present to the hospital fortunately sub massive about 25% and massive five to ten percent okay why do we care about this categorization

is there any functionality this yes massive PE carries about a 25 to 65 percent mortality so it's a coin flip whether these patients are gonna live or die that's how severe this disease is sub massive PE you know these are the

patients that are compensated from a blood pressure standpoint but have RV dysfunction these patients have a three percent mortality or so in the most recent randomized now back in the late 90s and early 2000s

the mortality seemed to be higher on the order of 10% but I think we're settling around a 2 to 4 percent mortality for this group now these patients do have a higher rate of clinical deterioration than the low-risk group meaning they can

progress from the sub massive category to the massive category that's that 5% number there so this this group is a little bit that's why I said in yellow and the top group is in red low-risk patients anticoagulate them they'll be

fine so that was the eh-eh-eh in 2011 well the Europeans have to had to have their own version in 2014 and they said you guys you Americans are not doing this quite right so that's where they I'm sorry I can't put two pointers at

the same time that would be pretty cool but I'll start on this side if I can everybody over there see that all right so this intermediate group here is the same as the sub massive category I'm gonna walk you through this just because

it's you know we're more and more going towards the European Society guidelines so they break down this sub massive category into intermediate high and intermediate low and the reason they did that is they're saying that not all sub

massive pease are the same and that's probably true there's some some sub massives that are really not looking good and going towards massive and sub some some sub masters that are just rock solid stable and beside a little bit of

RV dysfunction they're probably gonna do just fine and just you know go towards the low-risk with a little bit of anticoagulation so what how do they break this down well both of them have this positive especi or pecci I'll show

you on the next slide what that is basically it's a pulmonary embolism severity index okay so you have to have that being abnormal or positive for you to fit in the intermediate category but then this is where it differentiates so

if you have an imaging test such as a CT or an echocardiogram and you have your laboratory biomarkers such as a troponin or BMP being elevated or abnormal then you fit into this intermediate high-risk category but if you have only one of

them or neither of them being positive in the intermediate low-risk category so what's the big deal why does that matter well but we don't really know frankly but what the European guidelines recommend

is if you're in this intermediate high category you should be watched because you have a risk of clinical deterioration and if you're going towards that they say consider reperfusion reperfusion could be

anything it could be systemic thrombolytics it could be catheter directed lytx or it could it could be surgery that's that's the way they put it if you're in the intermediate low-risk category you can be discharged

pretty early this is that pesi score and you can see why they tried to simplify it the s pesky because you have all of these factors and they're all assigned these points the more points you have the worse you are but let's focus on the

simplified pesky scale if you have a score of one or more of these then you're considered to have a 10% mortality in the next 30 days so that's these are what they thought were the highest impact issues in a patient

presenting with PE it doesn't tell you that just because you have a positive s peso you should intervene it just says that this is what may happen with these circumstance and we'll go through the first set just for a second here so age

greater than 80 years that's a that's an issue if you have cancer if you have heart failure or pulmonary disease a heart rate greater than 110 the systolic blood pressure less than 100 or an arterial oxygen saturation off of nasal

canula or supplemental oxygen less than 90% you get a point okay all right are we ready for the first question 65 year old man blood

female recently diagnosed with cervical cancer this is the baseline imaging the

one on the left is pet the one on to your right is pet MRI which one you think the doctor likes better so there is a cervical lesion you could see the abnormal uptick or hypermetabolic uptake in the cervical area that's what we call

hot spots but we do a closer look because the pet MRI this time is used or done for planning for surgery or treatment look at the actual pet MRI you could see the hypermetabolic uptake in the cervical area the normal bladder

and normal uterus those are normal updates under your right you could see the uterus full the full outline of the uterus and exactly where the cervical lesion is located and the bright one at

the bottom is the normal blood er this scan is done to help the doctors plan for the surgery and to check if there is metastasis at this time there's none and the path MRI is choice of modality of choice for this reason because MRI is

the only modality that could do all the planes and it does very good in differentiation of tissues this is the end of our presentation and if you have any questions feel free to do so I did not pass out thank you

[Applause] [Music] [Applause]

includes an interview of the patient abnormalities of major organ systems like cardiac status do they have a reduced ejection fraction do they have coronary artery disease I want to know

if they have an EF of 10% because if they become hemodynamically unstable and I want to give them fluids I'm not going to bolus a patient with a very low ejection fraction with two liters of fluid you're gonna cause

pulmonary edema and you're going to worsen the situation renal status is huge a lot of our patients are renal e impaired and that can affect the way that they clear the sedation medications that we're giving pulmonary status do

they have COPD asthma or sleep apnea sleep apnea is major in procedural sedation neurologic status do they have a history of seizures endocrine status hyper or hypo metabolism of medications can occur if they have a thyroid

disorder we want to know about adverse experiences with sedation in the past do they have a history of a difficult airway for us at NYU if they have been already been identified as a difficult airway that automatically means we're

doing the procedure with anesthesia current medications potential drug interactions is very important we'll go over that a few slides drug allergies and herbal supplements that they're taking tobacco alcohol or

substance use and frequent or repeated exposure to sedation agents is just going to increase their tolerance of the medications physical exam vital signs auscultation of heart and lungs and then their airway assessment sorry excuse me

do they have any Strider snoring or sleep apnea advanced RA they're gonna have a hard time tilting their neck back if they have cervical spine disease or they have rheumatoid arthritis chromosomal abnormalities like

trisomy 21 patients with Down syndrome can have an enlarged tongue that can impair your ability to manually ventilate them if respiratory depression wants to occur body habitus if they have significant obesity especially of the

head and neck areas and head and neck limited neck extension short neck decreased ornamental distance which is basically just looking at how far back they can tilt their head any neck mass and then again cervical spine disease or

trauma do they have a c-spine collar are they on c-spine precautions that's not a patient we're going to be able to manipulate their airway and then mouth opening we do use Mallampati and I'll review

that in a couple of slides so the AFC classification is a categorization of the patient's physiologic status that can be helpful in predicting operative risk it is recommended by the AFA that if a patient is an Asaf or that that

should prompt an evaluation by an anesthesiologist I will tell you at NYU we will still get procedural sedation to some patients who are in Asaf or but we like to identify it ahead of time because if they have significant

comorbidities that will potentially increase their likely hurt likelihood of having an adverse outcome we then have a lower threshold for activating a rapid response or a code if something was to happen if we got concerned about

something so the airway assessment is

kind of the embolic protection because I think with carotid artery stenting the stents there's a lot of different types they're all self expanding for the most

part and there's not a lot to talk about there but there is with regards to embolic protection and there so there's distal and violent protection where you have this where that blue little sheath in the common carotid artery you got a

wire through the ica stenosis and a little basket or filter distally before you put the stent in early on they used to think oh maybe we'll do distal balloon occlusion put a balloon up distally do your intervention aspirate

whatever collects behind the balloon and then take the balloon down not so ideal because you never really asked for it a hundred percent of the debris and then whatever whenever you deflate the balloon it goes back it goes up to the

brain you still have some embolic phenomenon in the cerebral vascular churn and then there's this newer concept of proximal protection where you use either flow reversal reverse the blood flow in the cerebral circulation

or you actually cause a stagnant column of blood in the ica so you can't get you don't get anything that embolize is up distally but you have this stagnant column the debris collects there you aspirate that actively before you take

down the balloons that are in position in the X carotids and common carotid artery and then you take everything out so let's walk through each of these if you really wanted to pick out the perfect embolic

protection device it's got to be relatively easy to use it's got to be stable in position so it's not moving up and down and causing injury to the vessel but even while it's in place cerebral perfusion is maintained so that

balloon the distal balloon not a great idea because you're cutting off all the blood flow to the brain you might stop something from embolizing up distally but in the process of doing that you may patient may not tolerate that you want

complete protection during all aspects of the procedure so when we place a filter as you'll see just crossing the lesion with the initial filter can cause a distal embolus so that's a problem you want to be able to use your guide wire

choice as many of you know when we go through peripheral vasculature there's your go-to wires but it doesn't always work every time with that one go-to wire so you want to be able to pick the wire that you want to use or

change it up if needed for different lesions so if you get to use your wire of choice then then that's gonna be a better system than something that's man deter and then if you have a hard time using that wire to get across the lesion

you have a problem overall and then ultimately where do you land that protection device and a few diagrams here to help illustrate this generally speaking these distal embolic protection these filters that go beyond

the lesion have been used for quite a while and are relatively safe you can see them pretty easily and geographically they have little markers on them that signify if they're open or closed and we look for that overall and

blood flows through them it's just a little sieve a little basket that collects really tiny particles micrometers in size but allows blood flow to pass through it so you're not actually causing any cessation of blood

flow to the brain but you are protecting yourself from that embolic debris and it's generally well tolerated overall we had really good results in fact when not using this device there's a lot of strokes that were occurring in use of

this device dramatic reduction so a significant improvement in this procedural area by utilization of embolic protection however distal embolic protection or filter devices are not a perfect APD as you as you may know

those of you have been involved in carotid stenting there is no cerebral protection when you cross the lesion if you have a curlicue internal carotid artery this filter doesn't sit right and and ultimately may not cause

good protection or actually capture everything that breaks off the plaque and it can be difficult to deliver in those really tortuous internal carotid arteries so ultimately you can cross the lesion but you may not get this filter

up if you don't get the filter up you can't put the stent then ultimately you're out of luck so you gotta have a different option filters may not provide complete cerebral protection if they're not fully opposed and again it does

allow passage of really tiny particles right so your blood cells have to be able to pass but even though it's less than about a hundred microns may be significant enough to cause a significant stroke if it goes to the

right basket of territory so it's not perfect protection and then if you have so much debris you can actually overload the filter fill it up in tile and entirely and then you have a point where when you capture the filter there's some

residual debris that's never fully captured either so these are concerns and then ultimately with that filter in place you can cause a vessel dissection when you try to remove it or if it's bouncing up and down without good

stability you can cause spasm to the vessel as well and so these are the things that we look for frequently because we want to make sure that ultimately if we just sent the lesion but we don't believe the vessel distal

to it intact and we're going to have a problem so here's some kind of illustrated diagrams for this here's a sheath in the common carotid artery you see your plaque lesion in the internal carotid artery and you're trying to

cross this with that filter device that's what's the picture on the right but as you're crossing that lesion you're you're liberating a little plaque or debris which you see here and during that period of time until the filters in

place you're not protected so all that debris is going up to the brain so there's that first part of the procedure where you're not protected that's one of the pitfalls or concerns particularly with very stenotic lesions or friable

lesions like this where you're not protected until that filters in place that first step you never are protected in placement of a filter here's an example where you have a torturous internal carotid artery so you see this

real kink these are kinds of carotid internal carotid arteries that we can see and if you place that filter in that bend that you can see right at the bend there the bottom part the undersurface of the carotid doesn't have good wall

my position of the filter so debris can can slip past the filter on the under under surface of this which is a real phenomenon and you can see that you can say well what if we oversize the filter if you oversize the filter then it then

it just oval eyes Azure or it crimps and in folds on itself so you really have to size this to the specific vessel that you plan to target it in but just the the physics of this it's it's a tube think about a balloon a balloon doesn't

conform to this it tries to straighten everything out this isn't going to straighten the vessel out so it doesn't fully conform on the full end of the filter and you have incomplete a position and therefore

incomplete filtration so this is another failure mode I mentioned before what if it gets overloaded so here's a diagram where you have all this debris coming up it's filling up the really tiny tiny particles go past it because this little

micro sieve allows really small particles to go distal but approximately it's overloaded so now you get all this debris in there you place your stent you take your retrieval filter or catheter to take this filter out and all that

stuff that's sitting between the overloaded filter and your stent then gets liberated and goes up to the brain so you got to worry about that as well I mentioned this scenario that it builds up so much so that you can't get all the

debris out and ultimately you lose some and then when the filter is full and debris particles that are suspended near the stent or if you put that filter too close to the edge of the stent you run into problems where it may catch the

stent overall and you have all of this debris and it looks small and you don't really see it and geographically obviously but ultimately is when you do a stroke assessment and it's not always devastating strokes but mild symptoms

where he had a stroke neurologist and the crest trial or most of the more recent clinical trials we actually evaluate a patient and notice that they had small maybe sub sub clinical or mild strokes that were noted they weren't

perhaps devastating strokes but they had things that caused some degree of disability so not insignificant here's a case example of a carotid stent that was done this is a case out of Arizona proximal carotid

stenosis stent placed but then distal thrombus that developed in this case and had post rhombus removal after the epd was removed so there's thrombus overloaded the the filter you can see the filter at the very top of the center

image you can see the sort of the shadow of the embolic protection device there distally aspirated that took the filter out and then ultimately removed but you can imagine that amount of thrombus up in the brain would have been a

devastating stroke and this is what the filter looks like in real life so this is what the debris may look like so it's not this is not overloaded but that's significant debris and you can see the little film or sieve that's on the

distal part of this basket and that's what captures the debris any of that in the brain is gonna leave this patient with a residual stroke despite a successful stenting procedure so this is what we're trying to avoid so in spite

okay pathophysiology right ventricular the right ventricle is everything when it comes to the pathophysiology of this disease I'm gonna lead you through this because I think it's interesting and important I'm gonna go to this side this

time be fair to both sides of the room so when you have a PE that increases your pulmonary vascular resistance normally the pulmonary vasculature is a very low resistance circuit but when you start putting clots in it it's restive

Gong its its resistance goes up it's kind of analogous to the left an electrical circuit what does that do to the right ventricle well it increases the after load on that right ventricle so what that does is it causes the right

ventricle to blow up like a balloon now by Laplace's law if you take a balloon and you blow it up the intramural pressure is higher in the balloon so if you can imagine that thin walled balloon if you took the pressure at each point

inside of the balloon because it still got a finite thickness the pressure is higher than if it's decompressed now the problem with that is that how does the right ventricle get blood it gets blood from the coronary arteries but if the

pressure inside the ventricle is higher than the pressure differential is less and what what what is Flo rely upon it relies upon a difference in pressure from point A to point B so if that starts to equalize your blood flow to

the right ventricle decreases okay that's why the right ventricle gets ischemic now when the right ventricle becomes ischemic it can't squeeze as hard so it gets hypokinetic when it dilates it also does

not seem to squeeze out as well because the muscle fibers aren't overlapping as well okay so both of those things lead to both so that the right ventricle is now not squeezing is hard and it's not getting blood forward to the left

ventricle so that results in LV preload reduction though LV is not seeing as much blood on top of that when the right ventricle dilates it starts impinging on the left ventricle so now the left ventricular cavity is smaller and it can

accept less blood your output is only as good as your input okay so that's where you start developing systemic hypotension because your left ventricle can't pump out as much blood what happens when your left ventricle can't

pump out as much blood you don't get as much blood into your coronary arteries you don't get as much blood into your coronary arteries you're not getting as much blood into your right ventricle this is the vicious cycle that leads to

right ventricular failure and the progressive death that you see with massive PE now if you were to draw a line like that everything above the line is sub massive PE everything below the line is massive PE okay this is a big

experiment I did we were trying to create sub massive PE we created a massive PE this used to be mostly the L the left-sided chambers and all of a sudden became the right-sided chambers to me this drove home how much the right

side can blow out and dilate that's the only point of this picture I hope I didn't cross you out okay so let's talk

to our case study the first case study is the normal whole body pet MRI the the

image song to your left it's a regular pet MRI the one on the right as you could see it's a big difference there is very vivid image and you could pinpoint the organs they are not to me of the patient this is normal

scan there is normal uptake on the brain the ureters the bladder the kidneys those are normal there's no abnormal uptake or there's no hypermetabolic uptake noted the next case study is a 59

want you to follow follow okay so our again we went from a six-week program now down to a three-week program and

incorporating simulation and so we took a lot of what we wanted to and like what we would recover in our first second and third week and here we're going to go into more detail so really week one as we talked about the basics so really

just doing some introductions you know what we did was a baseline assessment so we gave them a quiz and then we also talked about aseptic technique the cath lab environment essentially and then we also really talked about the team and

the environment and scopes of practice we really wanted to focus on that because this is kind of the Foundation's the fundamentals of working with a team because I know coming from critical care into the cath lab I was usually like the

one that owned the patient and now I have this team and so it was really kind of a difficult transition for me because they didn't understand the RT role and I think vice-versa so what we do is we have the nurses and

the text and so the nurses look up the RT scope of practice and vice versa and it's really an aha moment for some of those nurses and techs to see really what is our scope of practice and how similar they are yeah it's very

different too and so this is a lot of times we get a lot of good feedback of like oh I didn't know that they could do this or oh wow you know so like I said some really great aha moments and then our second day we go into a great detail

about radiation safety a lot again as a nurse I didn't know a lot about radiation safety the RT but we really wanted to blend the best of both worlds and really help learn from each other so that's the hence the

interprofessional approach and then really just basic cases so left heart calf so what wire is what catheters what do we need for this case and we would bring these wires and catheters to class so that they could look at them they

could play with them so especially if they've never been exposed to something like this before they have that hands-on you know the kinesthetic learning essentially so that they get to look at at some of these

pieces of equipment same with right heart cast some of our interventional procedures and structural heart peripheral etc so we wanted to cover a lot of different cases and then day three we really went into more of that

equipment some of the interventional equipment and then looking at radiographic views so we kind of wanted to like put it all in some sort of sequence and then the third day we went into doing some sort of simulation so we

wanted to introduce them to our simulation software the mentis and then our day four and five this is where they would work back at their home facility and do their clinical practice essentially or their orientation so so

segwaying into some of the examples that we've wanted to show everyone just on the first week of our academy and some examples of the activities that we do with our learners in class is trying to identify different areas of the cardiac

cath lab so essentially is your rhythm right your EKGs I think that's pretty number one important part of working in the cath lab is identifying your EKGs and your rhythms right so again our technologists may not have had this

prior experience so we really do need it we needed to start from the ground up identifying what a rhythm is and we asked them to take a class prior to attending the Academy if possible depending on their hire date and

depending on when they start the Academy I think it benefits them to understand a basic you know EKG rhythm what's a p-wave what's a QRS right so down to the very basics once they do that they can come into

class and we can show them examples of abnormal and normal cardiac rhythms and and have them identify them and and ensure that they understand that you know this is something that you see in the cardiac cath lab you need to raise

your hand and call it out rhythm rhythm hello or making sure that you identify that it is a normal rhythm another example that event an activity that we do is identifying our coronary Anatomy that's pretty important as well

injecting contrast and doing angiograms through the coronary arteries to identify any abnormalities or stenosis and so with that comes a little bit of complicated it's complicated for them to identify those arteries and different

views you know we have the left anterior descending we have a right coronary artery well how does it look in different views and as an RT we understand that every time we move that SI arm the image changes not only for

the artis to identify the coronaries but also the RNs we need them to identify what we're looking at some of these are ents have never seen an geographic views in five different ways so where's your Li D if my image intensifier is REO

caudal where is your right coronary artery if my image intensifiers le oh so we really wanted to incorporate that collaborative effort with both parties our T's and our NS learning this activity all right and no pun intended

is my cap nog Rafi reading actually I want to back up a little bit here do I want to back up no I don't I don't want to back up so um let's look at the first

question why is my cap nog Rafi reading abnormal so let's first talk about physiology so a question I get a lot of times is sue the patient comes down for a procedure to the floor I put a sample line set on

them I plug them into the monitor and I'm getting a value of 28 29 30 why are my values abnormal anyone ever see this is anyone still awake okay so there's a few reasons the patients that we are dealing with generally aren't

healthy right I mean sometimes I go to work and I get chest pain I'm like can I just be in an ambulatory gallbladder room today because the patients that are coming from down to IR are sick what their physiology is sick too so we have

Krebs cycle we take oxygen in right it circulates to ourselves it participates in aerobic metabolism we get the byproducts of heat and energy and we get carbon dioxide as a by-product carbon dioxide really diffuse about diffuses

into our blood travels to the lungs and gets exhaled where we measure it so let's talk metabolism really quickly so if someone has a fever if their metabolism is ramped up you think they're gonna be producing more carbon

dioxide yes let's say they're a little hypothermic maybe they're gonna be producing a little bit less you see it for sure in the car patients who are cardiac arrest that are cool to status post cardiac

arrest right those values go way down normal physiology normal physiologic response somebody comes down and they're mildly hypoxic they've got pneumonia or some sort of VQ mismatch and they're hyperventilating to UM debeso

compensate for their hypoxia do you think there's co2 values gonna be a little lower at baseline yeah so these are the patients that you're seeing right so we have reasons that patients could be hyper cap neck like metabolism

right somebody who's in pain someone who's developing a fever early stages of sepsis they may actually have a little bit of a higher value somebody who's sedated or hypoventilating may have a higher value and when we talk about

perfusion is the blood moving round and round is that circulating co2 coming back to the core do we have increased cardiac output with continuous constant ventilation and certainly we can we're gonna look at equipment issues next and

the same goes true more probably in your cases of the hypocapnia patient so someone who is not fully exhaling someone who's in bronchospasm or a COPD or you're not getting that nice square waveform you're only getting some of the

mixed gas ventilation that they're exhaling rights and the conducting airway is mixing with the alveolar gases someone's a little hypothermic someone who's been NPO for 24 hours right it's the opposite of carb-loading right so

you kind of throw them into a little bit of like acidosis you know they're kind of not burning carbs for fuel are they gonna be producing as much carbon dioxide not so much right so when you're coming so when

patients come down to you and you put them on the monitor consider these things so ventilation perfusion gradients so we have what we call our VQ matches and our body is designed beautifully right so when everything is

working great it works great so the way we ventilate all of our lungs owns is very closely matched to the perfusion of all of our lungs ohms so by me standing up here I'd like to think I'm pretty healthy if you did a blood gas and you

put me on one of those filter line sets right now you would hopefully see a gradient that's very small the normal gradient between a PA co2 on a blood gas so the level of carbon dioxide on a blood gas in the arterial blood and what

you see when I fully exhale into the monitor should be between two and five millimeters so these are your patients come down healthy physiology you put them on and you get a value of like 32 then you

could assume that if they were healthy two to five millimeters okay their blood gas would probably like 35 for POC to everyone follow now does any of our patients read the physiology tech books textbooks no they typically don't so

when you have patients come down they may have shunt right so they may have we have our little airway here a and B you're out like picture them as lungs and lung a is blocked so we have no ventilation going to lung a but blood is

still chugging through right so blood is still going through the pulmonary circuit so we're gonna have Patapsco a dia depending on the size of the shunt is this the end of the world are we gonna cancel the case no but just being

aware of the patient's physiology would explain to you why I put this patient on this and I'm getting a value of 30 you follow and it's not the end of the world you document 30 and you monitor for trends as you're going along with your

sedation same thing goes through with dead space dead spaces were ventilating but we have an area of the lung that is not being perfused pulmonary emboli other circulations some medications hypovolemia shocky patients same thing

the VQ mismatch not the end of the world it's part of the patient's physiology maybe part of the reason why they're down there just being aware of these things though so the technology works right our equipment works if just amazed

it's picking up something that we don't connect all the dots on physiologically that sometimes confuses us a little bit so I hope that clears up part of it so when we're monitoring capnography certainly ventilation is what we think

of first and it's important co2 being expired by the lungs that's what we're looking for but if we back up and look at the physiology of carbon dioxide production in the body we are also inferring that

it's being metabolized and being created from Krebs cycle and aerobic metabolism and that we have perfusion occurring okay I'm sure if some of us have seen in our you know nursing careers patients who are kind of peri-arrest and

the capnography kind of drops off it's like a poor man's swan you're watching cardiac output drop in real time because carbon carbon dioxide is not being delivered to the lungs so when we're looking at our patients when

they first come down we first want to establish a baseline value we want to put on a monitor have a patient take some nice deep breaths full ventilations not just one but a few you want to you know have them take a few and look at

their other vital signs their mental baseline status and we're gonna look for trends in their carbon dioxide value so if someone starts off at twenty nine I don't care that they're not 35 to 45 which is textbook normal this person may

not have the stimulus to breathe if I let too much co2 accumulate so we're really looking for the trends okay now somebody will say well how much of you know how much should we look for 10 to 20 percent change from your baseline is

somewhere where you want to start paying attention to what's going on okay maybe like titrating your sedation or just being a little bit more cautious with how much more sedation but again it's more important to look at the trend

value behavior of your carbon dioxide than it is the absolute numbers themselves so first you having a problem let's consider the patient's physiology

study I would like to share to you in personal note that my training school

books and experiences never prepared me for all the different types of cancer I have seen while working at Memorial sloan-kettering I have come to realize that cancer does not discriminate it doesn't matter how old you are

socioeconomic status gender race color of your skin and geographical location and religious beliefs and taking care of the young pediatric patients makes me the saddest if cancer hits you it hits you

the youngest patient that ever took care of is two months old infant diagnosed with glioblastoma I remember that day clearly because I booboo the whole day based on this here comes the third case study this is a four year old child

diagnosed with hepatoblastoma a pet MRI with anesthesia is done the image to your left is pet and on the right is pet MRI you see the difference in the images this scan is done for the doctor to evaluate the extent of the disease you

could see there is a hypermetabolic uptake in the liver and in the pelvic area the color red on top of the head the patient that's normal that's a normal uptake there is no increase in the uptake so this considered normal

we're gonna do our closer look and I would like to show you the difference between the PET CT and the pet MRI the image on the middle is the PET CT done on March you could see how where are the areas that are you could see all the

increased uptake on the areas like the chest the neck thoracic region and the abdominal region the the bright area there at the bottom Dustin or my bladder up take look at the image on to your right that's a close-up loop of the

sagittal PET CT done on same month you could see clear I could see where the location of the abnormal act uptake are circled by the the white circle there is abnormal uptake in the spine and in the chest and

of course where the hepato blastoma is located but looking to your left that's the bet MRI you see how the image is so clear and defined you could now count from the you could count where the exact location is it's on T 11 and is in the

vertebra and there's evidence of the actual cord compression with all you know all you know is a neuro emergency this is a four year old child and the other abnormal app takes you could see also so this child don't only have

hepatoblastoma but also have OSHA's metastases so the scan is done to evaluate the extent of the cancer the last cases study is the 41 year old

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