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Classification of PE | Management of Patients with Acute & Chronic PE
Classification of PE | Management of Patients with Acute & Chronic PE
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Massive PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
Massive PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
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MRI Safety & Screening | PET/MRI: A New Technique to Obtain High Quality Diagnostic Images for Oncology Patients
MRI Safety & Screening | PET/MRI: A New Technique to Obtain High Quality Diagnostic Images for Oncology Patients
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Combining Guidelines with What You Know | Risk Mitigation: Periprocedural Screening and Anticoagulation Guidelines to Reduce Interventional Radiology Bleeding Risks
Combining Guidelines with What You Know | Risk Mitigation: Periprocedural Screening and Anticoagulation Guidelines to Reduce Interventional Radiology Bleeding Risks
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Project Interventions & Improvements- Floor Co-ordination | IR Lean Sigma Team Improves Patient Experience and Throughput
Project Interventions & Improvements- Floor Co-ordination | IR Lean Sigma Team Improves Patient Experience and Throughput
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Clinical Implementation | Respiratory Compromise: Use of Capnography During Procedural Sedation
Clinical Implementation | Respiratory Compromise: Use of Capnography During Procedural Sedation
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Where do we go from here for submassive PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
Where do we go from here for submassive PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
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The Case that Launched the Cornell PERT (PE Response Team) | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
The Case that Launched the Cornell PERT (PE Response Team) | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
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Definitions in PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
Definitions in PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
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Compassion | Gold Medal Lecture - Health of Technologists and Nurses and the Role of Compassion in an AI Focused World
Compassion | Gold Medal Lecture - Health of Technologists and Nurses and the Role of Compassion in an AI Focused World
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Pathophysiology | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
Pathophysiology | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
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The Landscape of PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
The Landscape of PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
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Background to the Project- Challenges | IR Lean Sigma Team Improves Patient Experience and Throughput
Background to the Project- Challenges | IR Lean Sigma Team Improves Patient Experience and Throughput
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How We Established our Practice Guidelines | Risk Mitigation: Periprocedural Screening and Anticoagulation Guidelines to Reduce Interventional Radiology Bleeding Risks
How We Established our Practice Guidelines | Risk Mitigation: Periprocedural Screening and Anticoagulation Guidelines to Reduce Interventional Radiology Bleeding Risks
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What type of PE is this? | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
What type of PE is this? | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
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Factors Contributing to Hypoventilation | Respiratory Compromise: Use of Capnography During Procedural Sedation
Factors Contributing to Hypoventilation | Respiratory Compromise: Use of Capnography During Procedural Sedation
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Disease States, Complications, and more - Curriculum Week 2 | Cath Lab Academy: An Adjunct to an Orientation Program Using an Interprofessional Approach
Disease States, Complications, and more - Curriculum Week 2 | Cath Lab Academy: An Adjunct to an Orientation Program Using an Interprofessional Approach
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Research and Literature | Respiratory Compromise: Use of Capnography During Procedural Sedation
Research and Literature | Respiratory Compromise: Use of Capnography During Procedural Sedation
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Project Interventions & Improvements- Intake | IR Lean Sigma Team Improves Patient Experience and Throughput
Project Interventions & Improvements- Intake | IR Lean Sigma Team Improves Patient Experience and Throughput
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Studies into Equipment | Respiratory Compromise: Use of Capnography During Procedural Sedation
Studies into Equipment | Respiratory Compromise: Use of Capnography During Procedural Sedation
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Non-Invasive Ventilation | Respiratory Compromise: Use of Capnography During Procedural Sedation
Non-Invasive Ventilation | Respiratory Compromise: Use of Capnography During Procedural Sedation
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Overview of Respiratory Compromise | Respiratory Compromise: Use of Capnography During Procedural Sedation
Overview of Respiratory Compromise | Respiratory Compromise: Use of Capnography During Procedural Sedation
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What Makes a Procedure Low Risk? | Risk Mitigation: Periprocedural Screening and Anticoagulation Guidelines to Reduce Interventional Radiology Bleeding Risks
What Makes a Procedure Low Risk? | Risk Mitigation: Periprocedural Screening and Anticoagulation Guidelines to Reduce Interventional Radiology Bleeding Risks
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Submassive PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
Submassive PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
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Clinical Workflow for PET/MRI | PET/MRI: A New Technique to Obtain High Quality Diagnostic Images for Oncology Patients
Clinical Workflow for PET/MRI | PET/MRI: A New Technique to Obtain High Quality Diagnostic Images for Oncology Patients
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Why is the Capnography Reading Abnormal- Assess for Equipment Issues | Respiratory Compromise: Use of Capnography During Procedural Sedation
Why is the Capnography Reading Abnormal- Assess for Equipment Issues | Respiratory Compromise: Use of Capnography During Procedural Sedation
accuracyaccurateairwaybreathingcannulachallengeschapterconnectingdeliveringdilutedevaluatelocatedmaskmonitormonitoringnasalNoneoxygenpatientpatientsportsamplesamplingsedationstopcocktubingwaveform
General Screening Criteria (specific to bleeding risk) | Risk Mitigation: Periprocedural Screening and Anticoagulation Guidelines to Reduce Interventional Radiology Bleeding Risks
General Screening Criteria (specific to bleeding risk) | Risk Mitigation: Periprocedural Screening and Anticoagulation Guidelines to Reduce Interventional Radiology Bleeding Risks
acuityalertanticoagulantanticoagulationbiopsybleedingcardiacchapterchartdysfunctionhematologicalhistoryhypertensivelivermedicationsNonepatientpatientsplavixprocedureprovidersradiologistsriskstablestentthrombocytopenia
How Do I Approach Submassive PE Today? | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
Q&A Uterine Fibroid Embolization | Uterine Artery Embolization The Good, The Bad, The Ugly
Q&A Uterine Fibroid Embolization | Uterine Artery Embolization The Good, The Bad, The Ugly
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Summary of Bleeding RIsks | Risk Mitigation: Periprocedural Screening and Anticoagulation Guidelines to Reduce Interventional Radiology Bleeding Risks
Summary of Bleeding RIsks | Risk Mitigation: Periprocedural Screening and Anticoagulation Guidelines to Reduce Interventional Radiology Bleeding Risks
atwellchaptercloselyguidelineshemamedicationsmoderateNonenursespartneringpatientspracticesradiologyriskworkflow
Transcript

original classification of PE is important to know because it man it helps dictate treatment so it used to be classified as massive which is about 5% of PE patients these are the ones that

we all know how to treat they're usually coding essentially when they show up to the ER or to the angio suite or in the ICU they have a 58% ninety day mortality rate so these patients are doing very poorly they're in hemodynamic collapse

which is the diagnostic factor there that sort of makes that diagnosis because of cardiogenic shock sub massive PE is the biggest group that we'll talk about last I'm sorry the most important group we'll talk about last so

minor PE are about 55% of PE patients those are the ones that show to the ER that just don't feel right and they turns out that they have PE so it was really not even anyone's differential diagnosis and most of these patients do

just fine with outpatient anticoagulation monitoring and monitoring so the main group that matters in that most of the talks about PE are about are the sub massive group which is about 40% of patients and these

are the ones that show up with a moderate amount of clot and some right ventricular strain these are the patients who are able to tolerate their PE but they're not doing very well so they come in with shortness of breath

some chest pain and although they're not in hemodynamic collapse they are the ones who require inpatient monitoring or their good it goes to an ICU and that's really the patients that we worry about those are the ones that we're going to

do an intervention on or systemic TPA so that was the sort of the old way of classifying PE and this is the new way of classifying PE so this is the Europeans Society of Cardiology they had a

consensus in 2014 talking about PE and what we look at now and the way we stratify these are high risk PE intermediate which is intermediate high and intermediate low and then low risk PE so this is

important because it in fact it utilizes patients actual biomarkers imaging as well as their clinical symptoms all in one and so what we look at if you look at a patient with high risk PE they have to be in shock or hypotension that is

one factor that has to be there and actually everything else doesn't matter but the things that we look at are the PE severity index or the PES e score if you google PES e PE SI it's basically a bunch of things it asks for the

patient's age whether they have cancer what their heart rate is if what they're owed to sat and on what oxygen content they're on and it gives you a score and that classifies it in 1 through 5 and basically 5 is really bad which means

that you have a low or you have a higher mortality as an outpatient and 1 is really low some things like cancer give you a lot of points so that sort of pushes it over to automatically kind of 2 3 then you look at the signs of our V

dysfunction and really with PE that's really the thing that that kills you is your right ventricular dysfunction and if your right heart fails then your left heart fails and then you die and so that's really where the issue is

and then the cardiac laboratory biomarkers are what will sort of give you a blood test that you can figure out and see if that patient is going to do poorly so high risk PE shock or hypotension

low risk Pease the other end where you really don't have any of those things but you do have a PE diagnosed either usually on a CT scan but it could be on an echo as well intermediate high and intermediate low is where we all spend

all the time talking about that's what we kind of do all the studies on is really the intermediate high and low groups and what we should do for them and sort of how we can affect their lives but the main point here that I

want you to see is that they don't have shock or hypotension but they do have positive right ventricular strain either on an echo or a CT scan and they have positive biomarkers if you have positive biomarkers and imaging then you have

intermediate high risk PE and those are the patients who may benefit from some sort of intervention or some sort of further ICU monitoring and anticoagulation so I'm gonna just

about massive PE so let's remember this slide 25 to 65 percent mortality what do we do with this what's our goal what's

our role as interventionalists here well we need to rescue these patients from death you know this it's a coin flip that they're going to die we need to really that there's only one job we have is to save this person's life get them

out of that vicious cycle get more blood into the left ventricle and get their systemic blood pressure up what are our tools systemic thrombolysis at the top catherine directed therapy at the right and surgical level that what

unblocked me at the left as I said before the easiest thing to do is put an IV in and give systemic thrombolysis but what's interesting is it's very much underused so this is a study from Paul Stein he looked at the National

inpatient sample database and he found that patients that got thrombolytic therapy with hypotension and this is all based on icd-10 coding actually had a better outcome than those who didn't we have several other studies that support

this but you look at this and it seems like our use of thrombolytics and massive PE is going down and I think into the for whatever reason that that the specter of bleeding is really on people's minds and and for and we're not

using systemic thrombolysis as often as we should that being said there are cases in which thrombolytics are contraindicated or in which they fail and that opens the door for these other therapies surgical unblocked demand

catheter active therapy surgical unblocked mean really does have a role here I'm not going to speak about it because I'm an interventionist but we can't forget that so catheter directed therapy all sorts

of potential options you got the angio vac device over here you've got the penumbra cat 8 device here you've got an infusion catheter both here and here you've got the cleaner device I haven't pictured the inari float

Reaver which is a great new device that's entered the market as well my message to you is that you can throw the kitchen sink at these patients whatever it takes to open up a channel and get blood to the left ventricle you can do

now that being said there is the angio jet which has a blackbox warning in the pulmonary artery I will never use it because I'm not used to using it but you talk to Alan Matsumoto Zieve Haskell these guys have a lot of experience with

the androgen and PE they know how to use it but I would say though they're the only two people that I know that should use that device because it is associated with increased death within the setting of PE we don't really know you know with

great precision why that happens but theoretically what that causes is a release of adenosine can cause bradycardia bradycardia and massive p/e they just don't mix well so

MRA safety is one of our top priorities in our unit we have set up MRI zones zone one being the patient waiting area

zone two is where they change and they get screened zone three is where our control room is and anyone who passes by zone three has to get screened our pet MRI injection room is actually inside zone three and zone four is an MRI

scanner itself we assess risk in our patients for their implants we were iterate to them the importance of bringing their implant card with them just so it's easier for us to assess the compatibility of their their implants

with MRI right now we have the capability of scanning cardiac pacemakers and defibrillators it just needs more coordination with our in-house cardiology service and the implant representative rest assure

expanders and aneurysm clips are so contraindicated inside the skin we tell our patients to remove some items that they are able to remove such as dentures hearing aids piercings and prosthetics if they have it as for radiation safety

we observed the concept of Alera or as low as reasonably achievable you know before we inject the patient with the isotope we keep them comfortable we give them blankets we give them the pillows and we tell them

after they get injected that they are radioactive so we try to limit our exposure to them after they get the injection now we try to keep our distance from them and we have shielding lead shielding within the pet MRI area

now we have lead shield syringes available for the nurses use and we have dedicated a hot hot bath room a hot room and radio pharmacy we Ritter we give these puppies this injection card to the patient after they get the scan and we

were either a to them the importance of this card we have the stories from our patients where after the after they scan gone home and they passed through the tunnels or the bridges that they actually have been pulled over by the

police because the police have very sensitive radioactive detectors there was one patient who may have forgotten his card may have lost his card and he got pulled over and the police had to call our institution to confirm that he

really did have an isotope injected we

and I'm gonna let Carrie go over a case study with you all we printed and gave you one of those and this is just gonna

kind of really show you the importance of yes let's have established guidelines to help guide nursing practice but then let's also take into consideration what we know so I'll just give you all a minute to look over the the patient I'm

not going to read this all to you what's the journal was 28 to the right is right here June 2018 volume 37 number 237 number 2 June 2018 and it's bolded in our reference side - so here's the time for audience feedback if you are a

nurse and you saw this patient what are some things that might concern you about them heading into a procedure there's microphone if anybody wants it or you can just call out liver dysfunction when we were looking

at this patient and this is you know an actual patient that I saw doing a workup and said hmm this is a really complex patient what are we going to do with this person they are having a lowest procedure as Nicky points out so that is

good to note in this patient was actually admitted following a stroke while anticoagulation was being held for another low-risk procedure so that's definitely something that caught our attention and we looked at our lab

values again the INR pretty normal they were taking lovenox at home but they're currently in the hospital they're on IV heparin and a lot of our procedures come up at the last minute so this is it's not uncommon

for us to show up in the morning have half of our day filled and have cases added as the day goes on and I would imagine that's pretty much the standard for most of you so and they wanted this today this was more of a therapeutic

procedure but they really did want it for the patient so we got out our nursing guideline we looked at what medications are they on what's their history what does our guideline tell us and I've included the low-risk procedure

and it tells us IV heparin hold for four hours so normally the nurse would call the floor and say can you have a discussion with your service would you know can they hold the heparin per our procedural guidelines in this case we

didn't feel like it was a good idea to have that nurse to nurse conversation this is a case where we went directly to the radiologist and said here's the patient here's what our guidelines tell us could you please call the service and

have a conversation with them and they did they talked about the risks and benefits you know in our practice we do occasionally do procedures with IV heparin running it's been known to happen it's definitely not preferred but

again it's that risk benefit decision in this case the service felt it would be okay to hold the heparin for four hours the radiologist agreed that they would be okay with and so the heparin was turned off the

flora nurse called us when they turned it off we verified it in the medical record transport order was put in the patient was brought down at exactly four hours and the procedure was performed successfully the patient was returned

directly to the floor and the heparin restarted but we just picked this one as just an interesting patient to look at because it does show we have these guidelines they encourage nurses to look at these things while we're screening

patients but we also need to think critically and say you know does this warrant a little bit of extra consideration should the radiologist and the service have this conversation or is the service managing the patient going

to do what our recommendations say so we do run into this kind of thing quite often and they did say at the session this morning nurses want a guideline but there's no cookbook for these patients and I think that emphasizes that we can

make all the screening guidelines in the world they're very helpful for streamlining triaging patients getting patients in but ultimately we're going to have a lot of these multidisciplinary conversations where radiologists are

talking to the service that's managing the patient and flora nurses radiology nurses everybody is getting involved in the conversation so it's really kind of a collaborative approach even though we do have these guidelines they don't

apply for every situation

right good morning my name is Jeff Andrus I'm one of the rad texts in the department and I function about once a week in the floor coordinator role

sometimes called the FC other places have different names such as an expediter or other names for it one of the things I do in the morning is to go up to the morning conference with all the physicians that includes all the

attendings the fellows the residents myself and whoever is the charge nurse for the day and we'll go through both the inpatients and outpatients to discuss what what the exam is and any sort of special equipment that might be

needed so we can kind of gauge how long these exams are gonna take after that we'll come downstairs and we'll lead the morning huddle and this is with all the texts and the nurses to kind of relay that information so we can kind of get a

idea of what our day is gonna be like and then throughout the day I act as the central hub I hold the phone I do a lot of coordinating between the different floors the icy use the emergency department anesthesia making sure

everyone is getting the support they need any sort of breaks or lunch coverage that's needed and also making sure that when the patients do come down they they're ready you know making sure they've got IVs that they've been NPO

trying to head off any sort of problems like that so everyone has different size departments ours is a a larger one there's 11 rooms altogether there's two neuro angio suites there's an

interventional CT room and interventional MRI and then seven body angio rooms every day one room is designated as an inpatient room between outpatients there might be gaps so if I know what those gaps are I can bring an

inpatient down to help get that get that going we do have piays that'll run one two two line rooms every day usually those are where we focus all of our outpatient line placements and then there is also a bedside service that is

managed by the chief techs and we'll talk about that later one of the things that we did start was we were using two Clint X we started using them as transporters because the hospital has one large pool of

transporters for the entire institution and sometimes that would cause delays you'd you know you're gonna have a room open in half an hour you put in for transport it might be an hour more before the patient makes it down so we

were using these two as transporters just to help expedite the process we found that we could also use them for room turnovers to help get the outpatients move through the department and overtime that role has evolved if

patients do get down to the department they can sit and watch the patients while we're getting the rooms ready like I said before they'll help with turning over so cleaning the area making sure that we're ready to accept the patient

when they come into the room if we need to send someone to the blood bank or the pharmacy to pick up chemo they are capable of doing that and also if we need supplies throughout the day if we need more linens or anything like that

they will communicate that with central storage so we can make sure we've got what we need for our patients you know I'm gonna introduce dr. Hong and you will talk about bedside and team empowerment thank you very much my name

all right so now here's what I want to

spend some more time digging a little deeper and talking about our clinical implementations this is where I get why I do a lot of these events and a lot of speaking with clinicians and this is where I'm gonna address a lot of the

questions that I get very frequently about using capnography and hopefully you leave with a little bit more knowledge and some troubleshooting tips so capnography traditionally when it first came out was used on intubated

patients right for establishing that they have a pain airway the endotracheal tubes in the right place and it's staying in the right place and that was placed in line with the endotracheal tube via adapter but now we're using

more and more capnography with patients who are spontaneously breathing and maintaining their own air and we have this breathing patients who are breathing between their nose in their mouth so they've developed

monitors where we can monitor patients who are exhaling through their nose and/or mouth we are looking at is again that non-invasive continuous plot concentration overtime of the co2 concentration that is being exhaled at

any given moment which is going to tell us instantaneously if there's any change in the patient's ventilation it just this is just a blown up view for those in the back saying if some of this can be difficult to see but what we have

here on the left side of the screen is an image and Michaels gonna start to hand out some of these just so you guys could put your hands on them and feel them and touch them because there's a lot of different advices that have come

out even in the last year that I haven't seen yet that I'm starting to see so we brought some samples that you guys can just touch and play with and such but what we have on the left is a sampling a filter line set which delivers oxygen

through in both nares both nasal you know prongs and also samples out of the nose but also out of the mouth and this is important because we all don't breathe just through our nose and mouth right we we we switch breathe Leone

where I'm talking I'm exhaling through my mouth sometimes I have a stuffy nose and I can't breathe through my mouth through my nose so sometimes when we're monitoring these things we can't if a patient is breathing just through one

air you're not going to get an adequate sample we're using capnography and I think it's more important to use capnography in the patients that have their own airway and our risk for losing their airway rather than ones that

already have an airway established and we're using it certainly in our sedation Suites we're using it pediatrics and neonates all the way up through adult right and we're using it more and more to with non-invasive ventilation with

our CPAP and our BiPAP patients that's another question I get a lot and we're gonna dig into that a little bit more but as you see on the picture on the right when we have patience with our non-invasive ventilation there's

different sampling sites that we can use we can have on the top there this patient is actually wearing a nasal and oral monitor underneath the mask there's also a mask port so a port that can be just plugged right into the

and then there's also ports that are on the circuit the mask ventilator connection which is a little bit more downstream so there's three places that you can attach capnography monitoring to and we're going to talk about the

differences with those as we go through here so let's look at physiology so why

massive PE well let's remember this at this point including all the trials that preceded the pytho trial almost 1 700 patients have been randomized into systemic lytic trials for some massive p yep all we have on the CDT side is the

ultimate trial of 59 patients non-us single was a single trial that's where this initiative is coming from to improve the data this trial called P track and I have preliminary information that we just made our first breakthrough

in fronting from the NIH so very excited that we have a planning grant to potentially get this thing moving so P tract is basically designed to be a randomized control trial of catheter directed therapy versus no catheter

directed therapy for sub massive PE to really try to answer this question just like the pytho trial tried to do for systemic thrombolysis in the setting of catheter Ida thrombolysis and this time we're not just using surrogate endpoints

we're not you the rvw ratio is probably not even gonna be calculated but what we want to know are these are patients doing better in one arm or the other and we're going to use outcomes that are important to both patients and providers

400 to 500 patients most likely looking at sites all across the so but we are still in this time when

let me show you a case of massive PE

this launched our pert pert PE response team 30 year-old man transcranial resection of a pituitary tumor post-op seizures intracranial frontal lobe hemorrhage okay so after his brain surgery developed a frontal lobe

hemorrhage and of course few days after that developed hypotension and hypoxia and was found to have a PE and this is what the PE look like so I'll go back to this one that's clot in the IVC right there and

that's clot in the right main pulmonary artery on this side clot in the IVC clot in the right main pulmonary artery systolic blood pressure was around 90 millimeters of mercury for about an hour he was getting more altered tachycardic

he was in the 120s at this point we realized he was not going the right direction for some reason the surgeon didn't want to touch him still to this day not sure why but that was the case he was brought to the ir suite and I had

a great Mickey attending who came with him and decided to start him on pressors and basically treat him like an ICU patient while I was trying to get rid of his thrombus so it came from the neck because I was conscious of this clot in

the IVC and I didn't want to dislodge it as I took my catheters past it and you see the Selective pulmonary and on selective pulmonary angiogram here and there's some profusion to the left lung and basically none to the right lung

take a sheath out to the right side and do an injection that you see all this cast of thrombus you really see no pulmonary perfusion here you can understand why at this point this man is not doing well what I did at this point

was give a little bit of TPA took a pigtail started trying to spin it through aspirated a little bit wasn't getting anywhere he was actually getting worse I was starting to feel very very nervous I had remembered for my AV

fistula work that there was this thing called the cleaner I don't have any stake in the company but I said you know I don't have a lot to lose here and I thought maybe this would be better than me trying to spin a pigtail through

the clock so the important thing about the cleaners it does not go over a wire so you have to take the sheet out then take out the wire then put the cleaner through that sheath and withdraw the sheath

you can't bareback it especially in the pulmonary circulation the case reports are poking through the pulmonary artery and causing massive hemorrhage and the pulmonary artery does not have an adventitia which is the outer layer just

a little bit thinner than your average artery okay so activated it deployed it and you started to get better and this is what it looked like at the end now this bonus question does somebody see anything on this this picture here that

made me very happy on this side this picture here that made me feel like hey we're getting somewhere I'm sorry the aorta the aorta you start to see the aorta exactly and that that was something I was not seen before the

point being that even though this doesn't look that good in terms of your final image the fact that you see filling in the aorta and mine it might have been some of the stuff I had done earlier I can't I can't pinpoint which

of the interventions actually worked but that's what I'm looking for I'm looking for aortic blood flow because now I've got a hole in that in that clot that's getting blood flow to the left ventricle which starts to reverse that RV

dysfunction that we were concerned about make sure I'm okay with time so we'll

that's background let's talk about what I mean when I say massive sub massive low risk high risk intermediate risk low risk all these definitions they're

actually pretty precise and so I think we need to be on the same page for that so when you see this what do you call it saddle saddle is a reasonable one large because there's I'm not sure automatically did that but would you

call it a massive PE how many would say yes this should be called a massive PE okay how many no okay it's not a big deal I'm not remembering faces but this is not necessarily a massive P I'd be surprised

if it wasn't but it's not necessarily because I haven't given you a key piece of information the hemodynamics massive PE is all about hypotension so what does that mean so this is from the American Heart Association in 2011 a massive PE

is an acute PE with sustained hypotension meaning a systolic blood pressure of less than 90 millimeters of mercury for greater than 15 minutes or requiring inotropic support okay so doesn't matter where the clot is

doesn't matter how much clot there is if you're hypotensive for greater than 15 minutes then you fit in the massive category okay sub massive PE okay you have a normal blood pressure but your right ventricle is dysfunctional so

either by echo CT biomarkers such as BNP or troponin your EKG shows right heart strain basically your right ventricle shows some measure of duress but it has not totally decompensated to the point you're starting to get hypotensive and

I'll give you a pathophysiologic explanation in a couple slides low risk basically means that you have no hypotension no RV dysfunction no myocardial necrosis so you have clot in your pulmonary arteries absolutely but

your right ventricle is acting normal and you have no issues with hypotension that's 60% of pease that present to the hospital fortunately sub massive about 25% and massive five to ten percent okay why do we care about this categorization

is there any functionality this yes massive PE carries about a 25 to 65 percent mortality so it's a coin flip whether these patients are gonna live or die that's how severe this disease is sub massive PE you know these are the

patients that are compensated from a blood pressure standpoint but have RV dysfunction these patients have a three percent mortality or so in the most recent randomized now back in the late 90s and early 2000s

the mortality seemed to be higher on the order of 10% but I think we're settling around a 2 to 4 percent mortality for this group now these patients do have a higher rate of clinical deterioration than the low-risk group meaning they can

progress from the sub massive category to the massive category that's that 5% number there so this this group is a little bit that's why I said in yellow and the top group is in red low-risk patients anticoagulate them they'll be

fine so that was the eh-eh-eh in 2011 well the Europeans have to had to have their own version in 2014 and they said you guys you Americans are not doing this quite right so that's where they I'm sorry I can't put two pointers at

the same time that would be pretty cool but I'll start on this side if I can everybody over there see that all right so this intermediate group here is the same as the sub massive category I'm gonna walk you through this just because

it's you know we're more and more going towards the European Society guidelines so they break down this sub massive category into intermediate high and intermediate low and the reason they did that is they're saying that not all sub

massive pease are the same and that's probably true there's some some sub massives that are really not looking good and going towards massive and sub some some sub masters that are just rock solid stable and beside a little bit of

RV dysfunction they're probably gonna do just fine and just you know go towards the low-risk with a little bit of anticoagulation so what how do they break this down well both of them have this positive especi or pecci I'll show

you on the next slide what that is basically it's a pulmonary embolism severity index okay so you have to have that being abnormal or positive for you to fit in the intermediate category but then this is where it differentiates so

if you have an imaging test such as a CT or an echocardiogram and you have your laboratory biomarkers such as a troponin or BMP being elevated or abnormal then you fit into this intermediate high-risk category but if you have only one of

them or neither of them being positive in the intermediate low-risk category so what's the big deal why does that matter well but we don't really know frankly but what the European guidelines recommend

is if you're in this intermediate high category you should be watched because you have a risk of clinical deterioration and if you're going towards that they say consider reperfusion reperfusion could be

anything it could be systemic thrombolytics it could be catheter directed lytx or it could it could be surgery that's that's the way they put it if you're in the intermediate low-risk category you can be discharged

pretty early this is that pesi score and you can see why they tried to simplify it the s pesky because you have all of these factors and they're all assigned these points the more points you have the worse you are but let's focus on the

simplified pesky scale if you have a score of one or more of these then you're considered to have a 10% mortality in the next 30 days so that's these are what they thought were the highest impact issues in a patient

presenting with PE it doesn't tell you that just because you have a positive s peso you should intervene it just says that this is what may happen with these circumstance and we'll go through the first set just for a second here so age

greater than 80 years that's a that's an issue if you have cancer if you have heart failure or pulmonary disease a heart rate greater than 110 the systolic blood pressure less than 100 or an arterial oxygen saturation off of nasal

canula or supplemental oxygen less than 90% you get a point okay all right are we ready for the first question 65 year old man blood

conversation about okay I am nearly at a time of 3 minutes compassion so I'm going to just summarize this basically

we've a whole focus on AI and how radiology is screwed and you know I don't believe that we still need to be compassionate to our patients there is a small group of people at Geoffrey Hinton and others who feel that I can be

replaced by an algorithm these are probabilistic algorithms that mathematically calculate the probability of something being X or Y if I was a diagnostic radiologist I would be worried yeah I think they've got a real

problem but those of us who do procedures who look after patients who know our patients name who hold their hand feel their pulse we will be okay we just have to manage the other aspects of what we do compassion is a basic human

need like Maslow's hierarchy of needs like water like air like food and we sometimes I think underestimate this I was very sick over the last four years and my son had a massive scoliosis repair and was quite unwell that a cord

injuries recovered but we learned during this that that most health care is delivered by the lowest paid people in the hospital the patient support worker and they've they're often first-generation Americans

first-generation Canadians they got you out of bed they wash you they change your gown they change your pillow they change your sheets they feed you and we don't pay them enough we don't look after the mo enough we don't educate

them enough we don't give them opportunities enough but this is what I learned from this this experience the other thing I learned is that this racial variation in how people wait if you're in the waiting area of a surgical

or you know there'll be one Caucasian son there will be like you know one Norwegian there'll be maybe five Hispanic or Portuguese people and that'll be like seven Indian families and they'll have food with them and

there's nowhere for them to reheat their food so we're still building our hospitals on a Caucasian model of health care that doesn't work certainly doesn't work in Canada I learned that there's some beautiful things

you know I saw vein physicians come out and talk to patients you are so lucky my gifted hands looked after your loved one you know and then we saw beautiful things this young neurosurgeon really remarkable I was very impressed so the

focus should be on the patient and the family and their major life event not the team not the operator certainly not the operator we are just tools that reassembles the 35 millimeter reel of that person's life and reattaches it and

keeps a plane this AI stuff medicine is not the science of healing but the art of wooing nature I don't have much faith in the ability of Amazon or Google or Microsoft or Facebook to be any more empathetic and compassionate to us if

they're delivering our health care then the way they manage us as potential consumers and I worry about their involvement in healthcare I'm going to skip all this physicians interesting you study art or more empathetic but most of

medicine still boils down to this you sit beside the patient you hold their hand you feel their pulse and you talk to them and you make eye contact and that's what you do and that's why I have such respect for what you do I'm out of

time so I'll stop now and I just wanted to thank you very very much for this [Applause]

okay pathophysiology right ventricular the right ventricle is everything when it comes to the pathophysiology of this disease I'm gonna lead you through this because I think it's interesting and important I'm gonna go to this side this

time be fair to both sides of the room so when you have a PE that increases your pulmonary vascular resistance normally the pulmonary vasculature is a very low resistance circuit but when you start putting clots in it it's restive

Gong its its resistance goes up it's kind of analogous to the left an electrical circuit what does that do to the right ventricle well it increases the after load on that right ventricle so what that does is it causes the right

ventricle to blow up like a balloon now by Laplace's law if you take a balloon and you blow it up the intramural pressure is higher in the balloon so if you can imagine that thin walled balloon if you took the pressure at each point

inside of the balloon because it still got a finite thickness the pressure is higher than if it's decompressed now the problem with that is that how does the right ventricle get blood it gets blood from the coronary arteries but if the

pressure inside the ventricle is higher than the pressure differential is less and what what what is Flo rely upon it relies upon a difference in pressure from point A to point B so if that starts to equalize your blood flow to

the right ventricle decreases okay that's why the right ventricle gets ischemic now when the right ventricle becomes ischemic it can't squeeze as hard so it gets hypokinetic when it dilates it also does

not seem to squeeze out as well because the muscle fibers aren't overlapping as well okay so both of those things lead to both so that the right ventricle is now not squeezing is hard and it's not getting blood forward to the left

ventricle so that results in LV preload reduction though LV is not seeing as much blood on top of that when the right ventricle dilates it starts impinging on the left ventricle so now the left ventricular cavity is smaller and it can

accept less blood your output is only as good as your input okay so that's where you start developing systemic hypotension because your left ventricle can't pump out as much blood what happens when your left ventricle can't

pump out as much blood you don't get as much blood into your coronary arteries you don't get as much blood into your coronary arteries you're not getting as much blood into your right ventricle this is the vicious cycle that leads to

right ventricular failure and the progressive death that you see with massive PE now if you were to draw a line like that everything above the line is sub massive PE everything below the line is massive PE okay this is a big

experiment I did we were trying to create sub massive PE we created a massive PE this used to be mostly the L the left-sided chambers and all of a sudden became the right-sided chambers to me this drove home how much the right

side can blow out and dilate that's the only point of this picture I hope I didn't cross you out okay so let's talk

I want this to be as instructive as possible I do have some multiple-choice questions that are peppered in there and hopefully you guys feel comfortable enough to shout out answers I really don't care if you get it right or wrong so but if I teach it right I hope it's

clear what the answers are okay so and and I know the title test says that I'm going to be talking about parts frankly I think there's a lot more to talk about about PE other than parts and I'm not going to be emphasizing that

but if there's time to ask questions or I'm happy to speak about that as well because I think the disease and the treatments are really the crux of PE at this point okay so I start with something called the landscape where are

we with pulmonary embolism well you know I don't know how many of you have seen PE in the IR suite or have dealt with these patients or even have friends or family that have had a PE but I don't think anybody who's interacted with this

disease would argue with the fact that PE is a big deal why do I say that statistically speaking well there are 900 000 VTE events per year that's DVT or PE that's a lot it's almost a million now the number of deaths from PE every

years quoted to be as high as 300 000 but is around 60 150 is what we think so quite a few this affects everybody you know you might have heard of Serena Williams getting a PE Chris Bosh and Serena Williams I think had a massive PE

which I'll tell you the definition of that later but it's a it's it's something that can affect a young person and kill that young person so that's what makes it a little bit tougher than some of the other diseases it's the

third most common cause of cardiovascular death stroke mi then PE ten percent are fatal within the first hour so a lot of these patients you're not even gonna see and when you do see them you've got a big task ahead of you

because they're you're trying to rescue them from death that's basically the same statistic now if you were to take every patient who comes into the hospital and you put an echocardiogram on them and you looked at the right

ventricle their right ventricle would show some evidence of dysfunction and so that's an interesting statistic because right ventricular dysfunction is you'll see on a subsequent slide is actually a pretty big deal and is actually at the

crux the pathophysiology of PE now if you were to do a VQ scan around six months after people got a PE you would find that 1/3 of those patients actually have residual thrombus so we think that you

know PE is a acute disease but what we're finding is that it's actually a cute disease that can become chronic and a lot of people and we're actually revealing unveiling the fact that maybe a year or two years after their PE these

patients aren't doing as well as we thought so that this is a burden it's a chronic it's a chronic disease that causes a burden on their lives so this is the disease and and you know as an IR you look at this and you say well that's

pretty exciting looks like we can intervene on something meaningfully but there are some caveats we should remember first most patients have low risk PE s I'll define that in a little bit but these patients don't need an

intervention they just need anticoagulation to the best of our knowledge that says all this this group needs sub massive PE I'll spend quite a bit of time on and it's a very controversial topic and there's a

lot of different attitudes between interventionalists and non interventionists about sub massive PE when you get a massive PE patient this is the patient that's crashing and burning most of them should receive

systemic thrombolysis which is an IV in the arm and a drug through their vein it's the fastest thing you can do and it doesn't involve corralling an IR suite the team for the IR suite or a surgical team and as I just said there's a wide

range of attitudes regarding treatment aggressiveness so I'm not going to go

on our IR department at Hopkins we have 11 procedure rooms all combined we see roughly 350 patients per week that includes everything outpatient

procedures inpatient procedures our bedside service and all of our consultation clinics so what prompted our project well there were two issues patient delays and patient complaints so for patient delays we were not always

starting our outpatient procedures on time we had three put problems we had some bottlenecks in prep and patio and we had patient complaints so patients are understandably not usually happy about being delayed for a long time

so we wanted to make improvements and we knew we needed to quantify the problem how many delays did we have how long were they but we had huge challenges with this that were not easy for this team to figure out so what were these

challenges there were three basic challenges one on I don't know about everyone else's schedule but on our EMR schedule we were not able to see the delays in real-time the patients were on this schedule but it just there was no

real visual or alert when patients were delayed so in the busy environment of the day the fact that mr. Jones is running two hours late could easily fall off our radar secondly we struggled with how we

were going to quantify the delays we knew we wanted automated data we were extremely determined to find a way to get that we knew we didn't want to use paper we have a lot of patience so we ran a report and that's what we often do

right we want some data we go to our EMR system and we run a report however it turned out we couldn't use the report and why was that well the report was wrong so why does this happen well what happens is let's say mr. Jones is

scheduled in room 6 at 10 o'clock room 6 starts running behind so we just sort of drag mr. Jones over into room 8 and say at 12 o'clock so he hit 2 hours too late when we run the report later this is not reflected because the act of dragging

mr. Jones from room 6 to room 8 on our schedule resets or reschedules his time in the EMR so the EMR system thinks that mr. Jones was scheduled for 12 o'clock start all along when in actuality he was 2 hours delayed we'll imagine running a

report with you know a thousand two thousand patients totally wrong so we weren't able to use that so we had to really get inventive third issue return rate for our patient surveys our old surveys were the paper type the type

that the patients needed to mail back to us and we would get maybe one a month I don't know how your returns are but we had very little virtually no patient feedback or any feedback was really mainly verbal incidental feedback from

the patients or maybe if there were severe delays from the patient relations department so this was really a challenge and this team was really determined to figure this out

establish our guidelines this was something this was a question that we got when we did publish our journal article because you'll see when you do

see our guidelines we are not 100% in alignment with SAR that is because we used SAR in a detailed literature review and examined both of those sources but then we also have our own homegrown radiology database our nurses are

instrumental in collecting this data every biopsy patient we collect their medication list as well as their current lab values we've been doing this since 2002 and we currently have over 50 000 patients within that database so we pull

from that database to identify what is best what trends are we seeing what medications are we seeing that are causing issue in our practice so we're taking from our own clinical expertise and then we also have a great panel

within Mayo Clinic it's called ask me Oh expert this panel is made up of multiple physicians we have physicians from Department of Laboratory Medicine physicians from our anticoagulation practices we have our liver physicians

can need lots of different doctors we have two radiologists that also sit on that committee so it's a combined specialty panel so we take we took into consideration all of these factors to establish our guidelines our nurses use

these guidelines when they are performing pre-procedure phone calls so I love to the presentation yesterday from Johns Hopkins I believe where they're doing pre procedure phone calls but often times a whole week before we

don't have that yet but I would love to get to that point but right now our nurses are doing pre procedure phone calls within a few days prior to a patient's procedure and we are going through these guidelines to identify

what medication or risk factors these patients have and we're alerting our radiologists to see if there's any type of considerations that we may need to take if for example a patient has not stopped warfarin and

then they also look for if within our guidelines the patient needs lab values we determine if there's lot values ordered or if they have any within the medical record we want them within 30 days except for if the patient has known

or suspected liver disease we do want them more recently within 14 days or if a patient's on chemotherapy or one of those anti antagonists this is something I really need to stress to our nurses and I think I've gotten the point across

to you that these are guidelines only clinical decisions are made by the supervising radiologist so we've we've put this right in all of our guidelines in that yes these are guidelines that we can use those nurses to help triage our

patients and move and streamline our assessment process but sometimes it does further critical thinking and then discussion you want to go into what you

pressure of 60 over 40 minimally responsive I'll give you that

there are probably two right answers if you were going to figure to go by the book on this this PE qualifies as a good I agree with a now what about e somebody pointed this out the other day and I was like oh yeah it's a reasonable point

exactly it has to be greater than 15 minutes so theoretically e is correct as well but that's not what I meant when I put question together all these pitfalls okay

multiple choice question number two seventy year old woman blood pressure of 128 over eighty heart rate of 115 RV strain on echo elevated troponin what type of PE is this I hear a lot of C's that's correct

so let's go through this so yes this person has RV strain on both echo and an elevated troponin so meets that criterion but how do we know the especi is or the passier the especi is positive here the heart rate exactly so the heart

rate on that scale had to be greater than 110 it's 115 so positive especi RV strain and echo elevated troponin high risk intermediate PE 24 year old woman blood pressure of 150 over 80 heart rate of 95 no RV strain large central embolus

what type of PE is this sorry can someone be a little louder dee dee is correct so just the the the thing I was trying to trip you up on is the large central embolus at this point we still do not use where the embolus is as

a criterion for stratification okay now I will say that large central embolus tends to correlate with our V strain so you will see a lot more patients with central embolus have our V dysfunction at the same time and so they'll often

meet the criteria for the sub massive are massive but if you have just a totally normal right ventricle no elevation and the in their troponin and their BNP that is still technically a low risk PE and we'll see this sometimes

some of the contributing factors to hypoventilation well certainly will we give sedation we give you know a benzodiazepine we give other medications we combine those with opioids right that

decreases our responsiveness to elevated co2 levels but we also have muscle relaxation certainly in patients with obstructive sleep apnea history undiagnosed or undiagnosed they lose their muscle tone in the airway patency

kind of diminishes very very quickly and they also have a decreased response to hypoxia all again creating that perfect storm of an adverse event waiting to happen and even patients that have don't normally have obstructive sleep apnea

can have it under our sedation so the key signs and symptoms you know clearly respiratory rate is one that we monitor but we also want to monitor the quality of ventilation right one look at patients tidal volumes and how much

they're expiring with each breath we want to look at their sedation scores whether you're using the rasp score or any of the other standardized scores spo2 less than 90 for at least thirty seconds that's pretty significant

hypoxia especially if somebody's on oxygen and hopefully you would detect somebody who's deteriorating much earlier than that but that certainly would be a terminal sign before they became bradycardic and you were pulling

out the code card but certainly using capnography you could tell breath by breath right instantaneous looking at those waveforms and look to see if the patient is not only taking enough breaths per minute but are they

taking quality ones so let's look at a little bit of a case study here we're gonna kind of look at this case study throughout so this is Jane Doe she's 39 years old she's being worked up for a nonspecific abdominal pain they've ruled

her out for gallbladder issues and appendicitis and they want to do an upper endoscopy in a colonoscopy she's treated with chronic pain medications gabapentin and oxycodone and she's had some surgeries in the past no allergies

to anything so concerns with this patient so what risk factors does this Jane Doe have for during for at risk for respiratory compromise during sedation possibility of undiagnosed OSA be a bio t mass index obesity high risk

comorbidities medical condition or advanced age there's more than one right answer so just make mental note here and these are the correct ones so she potentially has obstructive sleep apnea she does have an elevated BMI and she

has medical conditions she's sick acutely and she has pain medications as part of her chronic therapy so now let's look into solutions so again with our case studies after we give her some versed and a hundred Mike's of fentanyl

the patient develops the following pattern on the monitor so what should your first step be in this scenario nothing because her pulse oximetry is normal be stimulate the patient to take a deep breath perform jaw thrust and

place patient at a sniffing position to open the airway give a reversal agent or D intubate the patient good B you guys are all anesthetists now we have a bunch of positions open at Yale if you're

but the heart of the program really is the second week and so we really talked about some of those disease states so renal diabetes heart failure getting into some of those basics and so the artis didn't necessarily get that in

school but we wanted to make sure that there's just a really basically a review of systems so that their understanding kind of again the whys behind like why is this important so you know why are we so

obsessed with the renals etc and contrast and then again we do more some basic ECG review day to is pretty much primarily the hemodynamic so we're looking at the heart heart cath we're looking at manipulating our human

dynamic monitoring system etc and then our third day we go into the deteriorating patient doing mock codes etc and looking at what kind of complications can happen and how to treat those or how to intervene if

you're circulating scrubbed in etc and then again day four and five is basically what they're as the clinical experience with their preceptor so again after the second week we've incorporated our real-time monitoring system how many

of you who have used the expert system monitoring system not too many okay it's okay so this is our this is what we monitor our patients with our nurses and our techs are trained to use the real-time monitoring system okay so it

is a little bit of intimidating when you see that especially if you're new to the lab so not only do you have your your normal monitoring system where you measure a lines and your arterial pressures and your blood pressures now

we're measuring waveforms cardiac rhythms possibly you know right heart pressures I'm sorry there's a lot of functions that are involved in our expert monitoring system so we really want to introduce our staff and our

learners to what they're going to expect when they hit the lab this is intimidating so we really want to focus on identifying the basics on these monitors so what is the right heart waveform look like what does right

arterial waveform look like atrial sorry right atrial pressure look like a Oh pressures etc so we really wanted to incorporate that so there's a lot of functions that we basically go over this is another example of an activity where

we ask them to identify waveforms and pressures normal and normal and the other picture is our mock code simulation we have a great simulation facility and our system we have to actually in the system and our

simulation specialists and our sim Center provide us with the one of the best facilities for practicing and simulating different scenarios we have a feedback mannequin it's a high fidelity feedback mannequin and for our

technologists who have not gone through ACLs and have BLS will experience pre learning if you will before they do receive their ACLS certification so compressions showing you effective compressions showing you how to insert

an OPA are you going deep enough are you going fast enough so this is a mock code experience for our technologists and our nurses which helps them prepare them for the lab experience and how many of you probably trained on the job like you

know here this is how we handle the code oh here it is this is what's happening so we want to really go over like what's happening you know kind of define those rules beforehand so that people can know what to expect or at least try to

anticipate what to happen or what to do when a code happens and so the last week

interested okay let's look at the

literature so when we look at the AAA say they were the ones that you know they look at a lot of sedation claims and the close claims are what they look at the causative factors of adverse incidents and when they look at sedation

claims that occurred outside the o.r it's sometimes it's been referred to as the wild wild west of anesthesia yeah when you're outside the o.r environment and you're in remote locations the incidence of things going really wrong

increases significantly and I'm sure you guys are no stranger to that right but in remote locations a lot of the claims were judges being preventable thirty-two percent of the time versus eight percent of the times

that that happens in the operating room 62 percent of claims with over sedation as their cause could have been prevented by better monitoring and these are anesthesia providers that are looking at this right and we're seeing the

anesthesia providers have been using capnography and other advanced monitoring as their standard of care for a very long time certainly sedation and claims in monitored anesthesia care these are you

know cases where we're not into baiting the patient very common 21 percent in the specific claims related to Mac anesthesia and again the common denominator here was lack of monitoring or better monitoring could have improved

outcomes so when we look at the professional associations we have UAS a we have the European Society of anesthesiology the Society of gastroenterology nurses and then certainly your organization right the

association of radiology and imaging nursing and what your statement is with capnography it's a RN endorses the routine use of capnography for all patients who receive moderate sedation and analgesia during procedures in your

imaging environments right and and there's certainly there's their statements from many organizations that are all along these lines one of the questions I often get is - well how come we have these recommendations we have

these you know endorsements and such but we're not you know mandated to use it and a lot of that is political there's a lot of pushback from organizations that are gonna come out and say you must use this you know or else they could

strongly recommend things in the anesthesia world it is one of those things that but it's been a long time and I think in time you're gonna see the movement become more strong as far as recommendations go but for now that's

where a lot of the claims are strongly encouraged strongly recommend and such but that means that we should be doing it because the evidence is proven that that it is safer for patients so let's look back at our case study so later in

the procedure our patient develops the following pattern on the monitor you stimulate the patient and position the airway and you have no response what should your next step be nothing because the pulse oximetry is

normal hold additional sedation meds until breathing normalized supplement breathing with a BVM if if required to maintain acceptable and tidal co2 give a reversal agent or intubate the patient well the correct answer would be

to hold additional meds monitor the breathing and supplement the breathing with a BVM see if you can increase the ventilation to maintain acceptable levels well now we're further deteriorating so our same Jane Doe

patient is does not respond to your previous efforts and the end tidal co2 continues to rise followed by a sharp drop in our spo2 concentration despite being on oxygen then the following waveform appears what do we do nothing

decrease our oxygen give a reversal agent or intubate okay I heard some C's what do we want to immediately do she's kind of acutely dropping so yes C would've been correct maybe a slight ago you know before she's really started to

desaturate and certainly that would be correcting the problem but immediately before she decreases her SATs any further becomes any further hypoxic recommendation is to establish an airway

morning thank you Andrew hi everybody my name is Monique Dawson and I'm an RN patient care coordinator in the PCC

office here is a list of our team interventions and we implemented many many interventions for this project our team selected what we thought were some of the most important valuable interventions to share with you so what

is a patient care coordinator well the patient care coordinators our nurse known as a PCC that works in the intake Center and this intake Center is a central hub for the I our department I mean it literally sits in the center of

the department we have the prep and PACU on one side with the I our procedure lab on the other the intake Center houses nurses schedulers and insurance presearch staff the nurses responsibility is to include which

includes outpatient procedures we manage a variety of triage calls we lead rounds with the physicians in the teams for the next day we also make pre-op phone calls we do a lot of patient teaching and we see patients in the IR consult clinic

several times a week with our attendings and our pas the intake center I would say is fairly unique I call it the one-stop shop which makes it convenient for providers and patients to give you an idea of the intake center workflow

the clinician or provider calls the PCC directly they request an outpatient procedure so say for instance its patient were Marie who needs a single meda port placement for chemotherapy because she has breast cancer so we then

take this information and we confirm that we have a correct order in the system we also complete any clinical screening questions which would include labs any blood thinners

airway issues we're able to decide upfront at the patient needs general anesthesia or sedation we also get calls from the patients directly like my tube fell out or my tube is leaking which I'm sure some of you can relate to when the

nurse finishes the clinical piece we then hand off to the scheduler who verifies the demographics the insurance and does all the non nursing scheduling tasks and one of the things we really love about our own insurance presearch

staff is that they are experts in explaining indications for procedures to the insurance companies which then helps get things approved and on a short notice so so some of the improvements that we did and implemented in the

intake center just to mention a few was the pregame Huddle's so it's a PCC and the text would get together every week and talk through the next week schedule as indicated that's myself and one of the techs named John going through the

weekly schedule we look at case length equipments and resources that are needed and this helped us learn from each other and to schedule more effectively the other super exciting thing that we implemented was to stop using requiring

tons of labs unnecessary labs for the pre-op labs and to introduce and to tell you more about that I like to bring up dr. hardy Singh who's going to elaborate on our lab reduction initiative thank you

clicker okay hi so first I'm gonna do a

physiology knowing that we want to measure true ventilation let's kind of dive deeper into the equipment issues so looking at some studies here this is a

study that compared the different techniques for interfacing capnography with adult and pediatric supplemental oxygen masks in really the main finding of this study was regardless of the measuring device that was used this

signal for the of the entitled carbon side it varies as the oxygen concentration varies especially in very high levels so levels and adults that are less than 15 if you have a good location of your sampling you're going

to get a pretty accurate sample of your carbon dioxide but what this study found is an extremely high flow rates and that's adults greater than 15 liters per minute and in Pediatrics greater than 8 liters per minute that's when you're

gonna start to see some data quality decrease and I'm gonna tell you a little secret if you have an adult that's on 15 liters per minute and you're having oxygenation issues your problems are bigger than that okay no one should

really be on that much oxygen right you know there's a certain point where you have to change the ventilation or maybe they have a perfusion mismatch or they need peep or they need some other physiologic intervention camp Nagato

masks they provide really stable measurements without significantly breathing with commonly used oxygen flows and these are capnography masks that were designed for that not the rigged up ones that we sometimes you'll

have creatively used in the past and because and if you've seen some of the masks coming by some of because of the open design the carbon dioxide measured with the High Flow oxygen rates if we need to use higher flow rates you make

it artificially lower readings a greater again greater than 15 liters per minute and they may not reflect adequately like that gradient may be much bigger than compared with lower flows so using a standard o2 mask the one we pick up off

the shelf in combination with our you know nasal oral scope monitor can provide us with really good monitoring because it's going to be right close to the patient where they're exhaling but you have to watch the risk of patients

rebreathing okay so this is a little bit of a change in practice because we've recommended this for a long time now you put your sampling line on you use your regular oxygen but just by doing these studies we've found that

patients are rebreathing carbon dioxide more than we thought just something to be aware of you're looking at your baseline and if your monitor is calibrated appropriately and I've been doing

for 15 years and I've never seen a Capon ography monitor you know when you turn it on and it calibrates itself where the baseline was not zero okay so usually it's something related to the patient rebreathing and such so again food for

thought this is just the comparisons okay so when we have patients that are breathing I know it's a little hard to see from the back so we're comparing the end tidal co2 concentration between devices and at our supplemental oxygen

rates as we're going up on our flow rates so with patients that were normal ventilating their co2 on a blood gas was 39:39 on the monitor so very very little change and that's actually true for the cap one mask the oxy mask and the

different capital lines that's what they looked at they looked at for when they went up to five liters per minute 38 plus or minus point five 38 plus or minus point seven and then no change for the capital line the two different

capital lines so again nothing's statistically significant as far as using five liters per minute and same thing with ten liters per minute with normal ventilation really no change in the monitoring from no oxygen to oxygen

where you start to see some changes in normal ventilation with using all four of those the cap one the oxy mask and the capital lines very very little difference even at 20 but when you looked at the regular oxygen mask that

wasn't designed for it that's when you see the statistic differences and certainly the same goes true for patients who are a hypoventilating and hyperventilating to using the proper equipment again with normal flows and

even higher flows you really don't see a whole lot of changes and this is just a this in a graphical form here so we have patients with a simple mask on the first column cap one and then the oxy mask and you can see the simple mask between no

flow and flow there's a difference in our siege of co2 readings where the cap one and the oxy mask not as much of a difference right and then the same things when we I'm sorry I'm the right when we

turn the oxygen on and the flow rates go up minimal difference in the concentration that we're monitoring there so careful attention to positioning the mask where the mask is located on the patient the inspired

concentration of carbon dioxide and the waveform itself right the quality of the waveform should be looked at very carefully and then looking at the location the gas sampling should be right over where the patient is exhaling

right you want to avoid having any distance between the two of those which I know can be a challenge in the environments that you're working in so

now let's look at non-invasive ventilation and I know about like five

percent of the patient population that you are seeing is on some form of non-invasive whether they're on by level ventilation or continuous positive airway pressures right so see if HAP using to stent the Airways open and

maintain a pro a Peyton airway and improving oxygenation but BiPAP and patients that need co2 elimination right need help with the by level support so there's a lot of questions that come up when we give

these talks I'm like how does capnography work effectively with these different technologies of non-invasive ventilation and especially because more and more of our patients are requiring these so we're gonna look at some of the

comparisons of co2 capnography data from three different sample sites and remember I showed you that picture so that picture I showed you with the patient wearing the sampling line with a nasal oral scoop and then there was the

mask sampling port and then there was the port on the ventilator circuit distally so that's what we're looking at here so the diamonds that go I wish I had a pointer I don't have a laser pointer I'm sorry but across the top the

diamonds represent our end tidal capnography values from one liter all the way up to eight liters so as the props are as the pressures go up for CPAP they were monitoring leak rates and what they found is the cat nog rafi

values across all of those were pretty accurate when we're monitoring right here the squares and the diamonds represent the mask sampling port and the the ventilator in the circuit distal to the mask and as you could see that

quality of our monitoring goes down as we progress okay to use yes but just know the limitations of your equipment right and again this is the same thing for our BiPAP Dave data are by level ventilation we're seeing again

across the top if we're sampling right at the airway we have pretty consistent readings but then they start to fall off and we look at the other devices that are further down the downstream what we're seeing here is our end tidal

measurements again with CPAP data and what we're looking at is the patient leak so there's always leaks right when we have these devices on and that's a question well sue if I have a leak how accurate am i okay so now the red is our

nasal oral scoop and if you look at the red graph all the way across depending on the leak rate pretty consistent values right the charcoal color is the mask sampling port and that's pretty consistent probably until about like 10

right until our patient like leak rate 10 liters per minute coming out of that mast and then that value starts to fall off and even more so even further distal down our circuit when we're sampling from the circuit at the past the mask

that's the cream color pretty accurate when there's a minimal leak but as the leak goes up that falls off pretty significantly and the same holds true for our by level ventilation pretty similar distribution here with the

patient leak and the sampling so when we're using non-invasive ventilation yes it's accurate and yes it's accurate we're using high flows and yes it's accurate if we have a huge leak only if we're sampling right where the patient

is exhaling so now I hope that clears that up with the patients that are getting supplemental pressure support with your sampling and you know in those just whatever it can sample from the mouth and the nose right at the source

of exhalation has proven to be the most reliable out of all of the different sampling devices so third evaluate your

so reviewing the evidence in relation to respiratory depression and airway

compromise respiratory depressions been identified in ninety and ninety two claims of which seventy seven percent have resulted in severe brain damage or death eighty-eight percent of respiratory

depression events occur within 24 hours of a surgery or sedation related event and 97 percent of these were judged to have been preventable with better monitoring so where does capnography fit in with all of this with with your areas

well if you're starting capnography monitoring in your procedure and carrying that over into the post-operative or the post sedation care unit or in your own recovery units where you're recovering them before you send

these patients to the floor that could be part of a bigger picture they can continue on the capnograph even monitoring onto the floor and be monitored with that so that they are monitored throughout the entire time so

by starting capnography you may be actually implementing a monitoring strategy that hopefully could be carried through for that patient for the next 24-48 hours if they're receiving pain medications and such so when we look at

some of the factors for respiratory compromise we have patient factors right intrinsically they may have diagnosis that we do not know of like obstructive sleep apnea there hasn't been diagnosed polypharmacy some of the treatment

factors things medications that we give illnesses that they're coming in with or lying in bed developing atelectasis maybe have pneumonia they bring in their own illnesses and then the area of care factors right weather monitoring is

continuous or episodic in nature and certainly the interventions and you take all of these things together in this Venn diagram sometimes that can create the perfect storm for creating an adverse event related to either opioids

or sedative use and how do we monitor for that how do we figure out which patients we need to monitor there's so many complex factors we really need to anticipate the consequences right and monitor appropriately so moving on to

etiology and I keep the slide in here and I know it looks very basic oxygenation and ventilation oxygenation process of getting oxygen into the body onto the red blood cells and transported to these cells for cellular metabolism

and Krebs cycle whereas ventilation is removing carbon dioxide from the body these are two separate physiologic processes and sometimes these terms are used appropriately interchangeably they are

related to one another but they are separate processes we can oxygenate patients with ECMO with passive oxygen APNIC oxygenation High Flow oxygen but can we eliminate carbon dioxide without ventilation and the answer is no we need

to ventilate to get the co2 out and the co2 is a very important regulator of pH so how do we monitor ventilation and

all right so in our practice what defines our low-risk bleeding procedures very simple in our lower breast relieving procedures bleeding is easily detectable at the time of the procedure so we have identified those procedures

as our paracentesis thoracentesis our simple superficial aspirations or fine needle aspiration x' as well as any of our msk aspirations superficial biopsies meaning within the body wall or superficial to

the neck our deep neck biopsies are considered a high risk bleeding procedure and then any of our superficial drain placements most of these are done under ultrasound guidance in our practice and to define these what

does the literature say so we took a lot of our recommendations from SAR we do identify the same procedures that SAR does as low risk versus moderate to high risk and then we found within the literature that lab values recommended

our inr for patients with known or suspected impaired liver function as they went over again this morning or for patients who are on warfarin so any patients who are in warfarin whether it's a low risk or high risk bleeding

procedure we do recommend in our practice in INR for these patients

much more controversial so you it was pretty clear that we have to rescue

massive PD patients from death but with these statistics what are we supposed to do with sub massive PE well are we supposed to prevent mortality it's gonna be hard to do if the mortality is only 2 to 3% because you're trying to really

improvements of a very low statistic are you trying to reduce the rate of hemodynamic deterioration that's a possibility what about long-term disability if you remove clot upfront

will these patients do better six months one year or two years down the road frankly we don't know the answer to any of this and the reason is that the pytho trial made things quite difficult for us to interpret the pytho trial was the

trial that was going to answer all uncertainty this was a trial where it took some massive PD patients in that high-risk intermediate category and randomized them to receive a bolus of tenecteplase which is similar to TPA but

is not the same versus anticoagulation alone what did it show well it showed there was no difference in death between tenecteplase and placebo so they actually gave a placebo drug so that no it was a double blinded

study now if you look at the next line though a lot more patients decompensated if they receive the placebo than that's not to place this is not a bad thing you know it's not it's not great when you have to intubate somebody or initiate

pressors so if you can avoid that outcome that's it that's a pretty good thing so maybe it is the right thing to give systemic thrombolysis in the setting of sub massive PE problem was this the bleeding you look down here

there was an eleven percent rate of major bleeding in the tenecteplase arm there was a two percent rate of intracranial hemorrhage so now we've got this therapeutic window that's hard to interpret so we seem to be improving

outcomes from an efficacy standpoint but then we're also increasing the rate of bleeding so basically what we've sort of coalesced around is that systemic thrombolysis has a questionable risk benefit profile because the rate of

bleeding and the rate of really serious bleeding is makes us nervous so is that an opportunity for catheter director thrombolysis and I'll call this the poster child for Catherine throwing license if this is how it worked every

time we might have a homerun so this is gentleman looked terrible well still in the sub massive category but breathing at 35 times a minute hypoxic had his main PA systolic pressure of 60

millimeters of mercury you look over here and there's this large clot in the right upper lobe go to the left side and then there's all this clot in the left lower lobe as well so what do we do we put in bilateral infusion catheters this

can be an E Coast catheter it can be a standard catheter these areyou nafeez catheters have side holes starting from here and ending it's hard to see but there's another radiopaque marker somewhere down there on this side there

and somewhere over there and between those markers you have multiple side holes and those are put up inside the clot so you're dripping TPA at a rate of about 0.5 to 1 milligram per hour and you're getting it directly into the

clock that's the theory and so after 20 to 24 hours of that you know you're given 20 to 24 milligram of TPA that's compared to 50 or a hundred that you get was sitting with systemic thrombolysis you get something

that looks like this where the pulmonary arteries look pristine the PA still the systolic pressures come down the patient feels great now the skeptic would look at this and say well if you just tried some heparin and you just infuse saline

would you have the same result and frankly if you were to conduct the experiment you might find something interesting or not interesting but we never have conducted that experiment but you know I'll tell you a little bit

about the ultimate trial if I have time I don't want to go to overtime though

I good afternoon everyone my name is Ross Lozada and today with Murphy Aldana we will be presenting pet MRI and you technique to obtain high quality diagnostic images for oncology patients we have no disclosures Murphy and I live in New York City it is the place with

over 8 million in population 3 million of which are foreign-born about 800 different languages are being spoken other than English and they love in floor MRI of Memorial sloan-kettering Cancer Center we are reflection of these

statistics we speak about 10 languages which includes Sigala Chinese Russian Korea and Albanian just to name a few and about 70% of our staff are foreign-born actually I can count in one hand or how many are born in the United

States but despite our differences we have a few things in common one is that we all love our jobs and we take pride at what we do and T in taking care of our cancer patients and also we love food

this is a typical potluck in our Union we love our pot Luck's we do it for every holiday for every birthday in even random days where we just say hey you want to eat here we have some stuffed cabbage some rice biryani some mac and

cheese and quiche some caldereta and adobo some curry goat and a Haitian rice called John John but back to our topic our objectives for today is to provide an overview of pet and MRI imaging modalities discuss the application of

pet MRI imaging of oncology patients describe the care of the patient undergoing paddan-aram identify the nursing implications and to review some case studies so what is pet pet or

workflow for pet MRI upon arrival the patient have to fill out questionnaires the MRI screening for contrast and allergy assessment pet screening form

the RT will review MRI screening for after he checked that the patients at MRI safe and no presence of a Mia Ferris fragments or anything he would give the paper to the RN the patient then will be escorted through the change room and

asked to put on robe and non slip shots this is these are the responsibilities of the nurse in our clinical workflow for pet MRI RN to review pet screening form and contrast questionnaire if patient have to receive gadolinium check

kidney function EGFR below 15 you notify the radiologist except for a of s below 30 you notify the radiologist check for allergies if allergic make sure patients is properly pre-medicated

check for Medicaid presence of medication patches and implanted infusion pumps now also you have to check for patient's blood glucose monitoring I have one but I would but I don't go inside the scanner so I'm safe

check for pregnancy status with pediatric patients we have a special process to follow the iron then obtains blood glucose and record if blood glucose is 70 to 199 we proceed with the scan anything above 200 we follow the

glycemic management with PET imaging flow chart and here's how our PET imaging flow chart looks like it looks complicated by its color coded it's three pages but I would like to show you some key points like the administration

of insulin is also based on the level of BMI you see on the arrow says BMI below 25 and there's another flow chart is if it's above 25 after that the patient will be brought back to the pet designated injection room

remember our pet MRI is located in zone three of the MRI area so prior to that the RT would the screen the patient again the patient would pass through the wall-mounted metal detector and nobody could go into song free without escorted

by the IRT or a nurse you have to swipe your ID to open the door mission when the patients in the hot room are in would obtain the height in centimeters and weight in kilos after that the RN now could do IV access once

secured you call the range of pharmacists that you're ready to inject so we wait until and the FDG dose would come up through the pneumatic children this is how our hot lab looks like the pneumatic tube to your left above is the

shower and we have the hoop to prepare for the dose or check for the dose and the wash station and once the those arrives the nurse injecting and the RT is scanning or the RT assisting just always two artists in one machine in our

MRI Department we have four magnets and only one is for MRI PET MRI it's always two artists in each machine so one RT is assisting you and with the patient so once the FDG arrives we do a patient identification using two patient

identifiers we check the label and the dose if it's correct the FDG then will be injected to the patient once injected we tell the patient they have to wait for 40 minutes during this time we instruct them to stay still not stay

still but limit movement and stimulation and inform them that we have a camera inside that room and the nurses in a and the nurses could monitor them in the nurse's station one RT will set up the scanner and computer

and patient will be screen and wondered prior to so on for so you get wandered twice check for ferrous presence patient then will be positioned on the scanner table by the pet mr technologies it takes 15

to 20 minutes for setup you have seen how the patient is position the whole body is covered by the coils and head is covered by another coil as anybody among he works in the institution who requires time out prior to injection raise your

hand please at ms KCC we do this is done by the injecting nurse and the RT is scanning the RT is reading information directly from the monitor not anywhere in the monitor while the nurse is comparing and listening into the using

the documents on hand this is done to ensure the five rights the right patient the right scan the right area your scanning the right contrast those and rate and method of administration as you all know is either given IV push or by

the dynamic or the injector timeout will be done if patient will be receiving gadolinium once the scan is finished IV access will be removed our artists are trying to remove and inject also so they are capable of removing the IV the

radiation card will be handed to the patient and paste after that patient would be assisted to the change room and discharge there is good thing when you change the patient into the robe and the non-skid

sucks because just in case there's a spill you're not sending that patient into the paper outfit they're not gonna be happy at all now I'm gonna bring you

want to look at now third this is the area that I really wanted to get to today did we pass along out no yeah hand me up one if you don't mind

so third let's look for equipment issues anyone in here do yoga a couple hands okay so some of this is from a yoga exercise and it will play into what we're gonna discuss here but on the left here this is an example

of some of there's all different products out there so on the Left we have a nasal cannula that on one side is delivering oxygen and on the other side is monitoring our carbon dioxide so everyone just humor me if you're not

eating take your finger and plug your right nostril and just take a few breaths in and out through your left okay now let's do the other side so plug the other side it's supposed to be calming we do this in yoga anyone having

trouble breathing through one nostril over the other okay I see a quite a bit of hands so physiologically we have deviated septums we have nasal congestion we have you know our blood capillaries getting gorged on one side

you know I know if I sleep on one side I wake up all stuffed up I have to take a nap on the other side to even it out at least that's what I tell myself right but we preferentially breathe through different nostrils so if we have a

patient on a monitor there's only monitoring from one side do you think that's the most effective monitor we can use probably not just take notice right now who's breathing through their mouths because a lot of us breathe through our

mouths especially patients who are respiratory compromise under sedation or are sick and these are the patients we take care of so for monitoring just through the nose are we doing the best job of monitoring we could be doing no

and we found this out I mean there's all different products out there but what we have found that is most effective is using something that is delivering oxygen through both nares but also monitoring exhaled gases from both nares

but also from the mouth and evidence proves us so I'm not just making this up so we're looking at here is a study that was looking at the accuracy of non intubated capnography patients different sampling lines and what we see in the

navy blue on the left is the first is when they had patients just under a mer and then they put patients on a couple liters of oxygen per minute and you can see use the nasal canula with a scoop was pretty

accurate for both those patients who are breathing room air and supplemental oxygen when we look at two different other designs of nasal canula that just had like a little like a little port to kind of hung down the accuracy not as

great okay same patient group but what happens when we add oxygen to those nasal canula they just they dipped in their accuracy so I'm not saying not to use whatever you have you know if you may only have those kind of nasal canula

but just know that you might not be getting a full sample especially if you're adding oxygen if you're just using a nasal cannula port you follow so just knowing the limitations of your equipment so the monitor the little

machine can only evaluate the gas analyzer can only evaluate what's being delivered to it so if the sample line is not receiving an adequate sample it's going to give you an a waveform that is certainly not accurate so we want to

consider a few things are you connecting multiple tubes to get like multiple you know sampling lines together and connecting them with a stopcock yes no I see some nods of heads and sometimes we have to do what we have to

do right to reach the monitor to the patient but if you're connecting those sampling lines is the connector tight I've seen a number of times where I've seen abnormal waveforms and someone stepped on the stopcock that was

connecting two pieces of tubing and then you just correct the stopcock or tighten up the connection and then all of a sudden your waveform improves but also where the sampling port is located on the patient is important so remember

that picture I showed you of the non-invasive ventilation and the person had the oral and nasal scoop on and they also had the port on the mask and the port on the circuit three different locations we're gonna look at that a

little closer but where is the sampling port located doesn't it make sense to have the sampling port located right where the patient's exhaling especially for delivering oxygen and especially if we're delivering oxygen and kind of

higher flow rates right greater than 12 or greater than 8 and P because it's gonna do potentially dilute our samples and these are some of the challenges that when I talk to people that they are bringing to me like it

just doesn't seem accurate when I have patient on oxygen how can I know that it's accurate so that's what we're going to look at a little bit more here so the farther the sampling ports are from where the patient is exhaling the higher

the chance of your sample being diluted and not being completely accurate when you're looking at your exhaled gas and you may see something like this picture here so there's some challenges like I said we can do the exhaled co2 can be

diluted the masks we're passing around some masks here some of the masks may allow for rebreathing so when I started and you know in healthcare and especially in anesthesia and such and providing sedation we used to take a

non-rebreather put on the patient and then cut tubing and stick the tubing in one of the little holes okay see a couple of nods of heads here right we make our own and that's how we monitored air going in now but do you think those

non rebreather czar really allowing patients to exhale fully and to get all that co2 out where it's all that carbon dioxide going you you see the mask fog up right now they at risk for rebreathing co2 absolutely so we're

looking at all these challenges right and do you think that little like rigged up mask design was getting a really accurate sample really close to the airway not so much so and you guys are assuming do you guys do T E's and

things where you're putting mouth guards and patients yes no some their sampling issues with that right how do we sample when someone's working in the airway well there are bite blocks now that are integrated and I think we may even have

some here that we can actually capture an accurate sample so knowing the

guys do so when we do our screening phone calls and our pre screens before

the actual procedure there's a few factors that we look at for the patients with blood pressure the patient needs to be vitally stable before we do a procedure there may be a slightly increased risk of bleeding for kidney

biopsy if patients are hypertensive although it hasn't been noted to be statistically significant in the literature so we are always aware of patients being hypertensive we do want them to be taking their medications the

day of the procedure we also do a full medication reconciliation with the patient making sure that we're checking on any anti platelets anticoagulant medications and we have a list of our hold times that we use for a reference

we already discussed for those of you who are at this session this morning the issue of liver disease is it stable liver disease they may have adequate he stasis even though their INR is not within the normal range and so we

recommend a stable INR of less than 2.5 for those patients and in our practice a lot of the providers are going away from correcting the INR s for our patients we also screen for hematological disorders do they have some known condition that

makes them more likely to bleed or conversely more likely to clot and that may factor into whether or not anticoagulation can be held do they have a current diagnosis of cancer are they going to be getting one of those

angiogenesis inhibitors might they have thrombocytopenia and we just do a brief review of the patient's chart before we call them to kind of look for those diagnoses do they have a history of bleeding especially if they have no one

platelet dysfunction you know a known history of bleeding can be a reliable predictor of bleeding risk for some patients and do they have a cardiac or a neurological history as we learned this morning patients that have recently had

a cardiac stent placed we can't just say yeah stop your plavix hold off 5 days it'll be fine that could be a very serious risk to the patient did they recently have a stroke have they had a PE why are they on their anticoagulation

if they're on it so we really need to be aware of the whole patient and having that pre-screening phone call with them can allow our nurses to figure out a lot of these problems and then alert the radiologists and try and troubleshoot

before the patient walks in the door and says yeah I took my warfarin this morning I'm all ready for my liver biopsy the radiologists don't like that much in it you know it's really a bad thing for our high volume area to have

that happen and this is just another chart of our oh did I get mixed up here you guys are gonna fire me from running this clicker there we go so the whole times are again based on the half-life and the mechanism of action and this is

pretty similar to what you saw in the the presentation earlier today and specifically that imbruvica that's something that we alert the radiologists who they have a discussion with the patient decide is this something that we

want to continue with and I will say that in our practice with the volume and the the level of acuity of our patients I think that a lot of our providers are fairly comfortable with a certain level of risk because that's just who our

patient population is you know we have a very large hospital two large hospitals and very sick patients so that's something that we you know some of them are more comfortable than others but it's a risk-benefit thing that they have

to decide on themselves with the patient obviously all right so here are our

sub massive PE is an unknown entity so we still have these patients coming to us how do I approach it today

well those patients that are high-risk sub massive so high risk intermediate just like that ESC slide who look like they're about to Crump or look bad like they have an elevated lactate even if they don't meet the criteria for

hypotension those are patients that I'll almost always try to repr fuse and and that can be reproducing with any technique it could be surgical unbel ectomy it could be systemic thrombosis it could be Katherine directed therapy

but that's where the PERT concept where you bring together multiply multiple disciplines in a relatively short time and and make a consensus life decision that is thought to be the added value of the pert these other ones are getting

less and less common in terms of intervention so I used to intervene on a lot of these patients but as the data has come out and I've noticed that with the tincture of time 24 hours of heparin actually gets these people out of the

danger zone I've actually made my practice a little more conservative than it used to be and low risk sub massive Pease should pretty if if you're frequently doing this it's probably a time to re-examine your practice because

it may not be based on evidence or truth

questions comments and accusations please hello this topic is very personal to me I've had it actually had a UFE so this is like one of my big things I work in the outpatient center as well as a

hospital where we perform you Effy's and frequently the radiologist will have me go in and talk to the patient it's from a personal perspective one of the issues which it may just have been from my situation was pain control post UFE

whether you normally tell your patients about pain control after the UFE someone say we are all struggling with this yeah oh it's not what's your question is going to be okay good I'm gonna get doctor Dora to answer Shawn the question

is what do you what do we do with this pain issue you know what are you doing for the home there at Emory there you know and a lot of practices we we don't rely on one magic bullet for pain control recently we've been doing

alternate procedures for two adjunctive procedures to help with pain control for example there are nerve blocks that you can do like a superior hypogastric nerve block there's there's Tylenol that can be given intravenously which is seems to

be a little more effective than by mouth there's there's a you know it and a lot of times it's it's a delicate balance right between pain post procedural pain because you can often get the pain well controlled with with narcotics opioid

with a pain pump but the problem is 12 hours later the patients is extremely nauseous and that's what keeps her in the hospital so it's a it's a balance between pain control and nausea you can you can hit the nausea

beforehand using a pain and scopolamine patch that that'll get built up in the system during the procedure and that kind of obviates the nausea issues like I said that the the nerve blocks the the tile and also there are some other

medicines that can can be used adjunctive leaf or for pain control in addition to to the to the opioids so the answer the question is there are multiple there multiple answers to the question there's not one magic bullet so

that helped it did one of the things that I tell the patients is that you know everyone is different and yet some people I've seen patients come out and they have no pain they're like perfect and then some come out and they are

writhing in the bed and they're hurting and they're rolling all around what and I always ask the acid docs are you telling them they could possibly have you know pain after the procedure because some have the expectation that

I'm going to be pain-free and that's not always the case so they have an unrealistic expectation that I'm gonna have the UFE but not have pain what I also tell them is that the pain it's kind of like an investment right and

this is easy for a guy to say that right but but it's it's an investment the worst part the worst pain you should be feeling is the first 12 12 hours or so every day I tell my patient you're gonna be getting better and better and better

with far as the pain as long as you is you follow our little cookbook of medicines that we give you on the way home and I want you to make sure that you fill these prescriptions on the way home or you have someone fill those

prescriptions for you before he or she picked you up in the hospital and lately we have been and I see that you're there as well lots of other little tricks that are out there right and again there are all

little tricks so ensure arterial lidocaine doctor there is near alluded to and if you're on si R Connect you may it may spill over on some of your chat rooms here people have been using like muscle relaxant like flexural or

robertson with some success but just know that we don't have any studies that tell us how that's supposed to do so when i have someone that is like writhing in pain i just use everything so i do it superior hypogastric nerve

vlog and i actually will do some intra-arterial lidocaine although not so much lately i have been using the muscle relaxant but i will warn you that i've had two patients with extreme anticholinergic effects where they are

now not able to pee from that so you know where we're doing that balance act I see that you're there can I take that question here first just so we're we're doing the same thing we're using the multimodal just throwing all these

things at people and we're trying the superior hypogastric blocks but we're collaborating with anesthesia to do that right now do you all do your own blocks or do you collaborate with anesthesia we do our own blocks okay it isn't it is

not that difficult I would tell you that but again it's kind of like you know you got to do if you start feeling better and then you're like we don't really need them we'll just do it on our own okay thank you again yes what's the

acceptable interval between UFE and for IBF oh that's a your question what is the interval between UFE and IVF so if you wanted to get pregnant yeah and can you have a you Fe and then have an IVF like how long would you have to wait

wait and tell you before you can have that the IBF it I guess it really depends on the age of the patient because we know that that the threshold for which patient tend to have that inability to conceive

is around 45 years old so you know it did below the you know below the age of 45 the risk of causing ovarian failure or or the inability to conceive is significantly less it's zero zero to three percent so I would say that you

know you probably want the effects of the fibroid embolization to two to take effect it takes around 12 months for these fibroids to shrink down to their most weight that they're gonna they're going to shrink down the most I wouldn't

say you need to wait 12 months to put our nine vitro fertilization there's no good there's no good literature out there I don't believe that's your next and so I would say just remember that if you came to my practice and you said you

wanted to get pregnant I will be sending you to talk to fertility specialists beforehand we do not perform embolization procedures as a way to become pregnant there's no data to support that but if you saw your

gynecologist and they said let's do this then I'm sure they'll be doing lots of adjunct things to figure out what would be an ideal time then to for you to have IVF and if I dove not having any data to inform me I would ask you to wait a year

and what will be the effect of those hormones that they gave you if for example a patient has existing fibroids what would be the effect of those hormones that IVF doctors prescribed their patients yeah so fibroids actually

can grow during pregnancy so I would say that most of those hormones are pro fertility hormones so I would expect that maybe you can see some of that effect as well yeah alright if you have any other questions you can grab me oh

you're I'm sorry go with it okay yes we we have time I don't want to keep anybody here for that so I have a two-fold question the first one is post-procedure can you use a diclofenac patch or a 12-hour pain

patch that is a an NSAID have you have any experience with that and your next question my second part of the question is there a patient profile or a psychological profile that tips you that the patient is not going to be able to

candidate because of their issues around pain so they're two separate but we have in success sending people home that first day so I'm looking to just make it better I haven't had experience with the Clos

phonetic patch it's in theory it seems ok you know these are all the these are they're all these are non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs so there are different potency levels for all of them they you know they range from very low

with with naproxen to to a little bit higher with toradol like that clover neck I think is somewhere in between so we found that at least I found that that q6 our our tour at all it tends to help a lot so with that said I I don't have

much experience with it with the patch in answer to your second question the only thing I can say is there there is a strong correlation between size of fibroids and the the amount of a post procedural pain and post embolization

syndrome so there really you know we often say we don't really care too much about the number of fibroids but the size of the fibroid is is is should be you know you should you should look at that on pre procedural imaging because

if it gets too big it may not be worth it for the patient because they may be in severe pain the more embolic you put into the blood supply's applying the the fibroid the the greater the pain post procedural pain

are there multiple other factors that would contribute to pain but that's that's one aspect you can you can look at post procedurally on imaging okay thank you very much yes ma'am hi what what kind of catheter do you use

to catheterize the fibroid artery when you pass by radio access yeah so over the last three years the companies have been really very good about that so there are a few things that I without endorsing one company or the other that

you need to make sure that the sheath that you're using is one of those radial sheets a company that makes a radio sheath you should not use a femoral sheath for radial access so no cheating where that's concern you may get away

with it once or twice but it will catch up to you and you need a catheter that is long enough to go from the radio to the to the groin so I'm looking for like a 120 or 125 centimeter kind of angled catheter whether it's hydrophilic the

whole way or just a hydrophilic tip or not at all you can you can choose which one in our practice most of us still tend to use a micro catheter through that catheter although if I'm using a for French and good glide calf and it

just flips into like a nice big juicy uterine artery then I may just go ahead and take that and do the embolization if the fellow is not scrubbed in as well so thanks a lot but they make they make many different kinds like that and more

of those are to come all right I'm you can please please please send us any other questions that you have thanks for your time and attention and enjoy the rest of the living

all right we're gonna go into summary I wanted to leave room for questions too so we'll summarize everything up for you all but as you know and I love I love radiology and I know you all do too

that's why you're here and that's why we stick with radiology but as you know our imaging image-guided therapeutic and diagnostic procedural practices are growing and we're partnering especially at our institution I'm sure at yours but

I can't speak to yours we're partnering more closely with Hema and we're doing a lot more things with our patients so our practices are growing and it's very important to create some type of guidelines something that our nurses can

refer to to help really minimize some questions that we may have when we're triaging or screening our patients and it's very important for us as nurses to understand the mechanism of action of medications that our patients are on as

well as what happens to our patients when they are undergoing biopsies and then something that was kind of hard for our practice to kind of grip is that it's not always safe to hold medications we may have the guideline that says we

should hold warfarin or we should hold that aspirin but it's not always safe for patients sometimes it puts them at an increased risk and then that we we have linked our procedures to low or moderate and high risk bleeding

guidelines and that it's important to still use critical thinking and understand the difference between low and high risk procedures and then knowing that it's really important that these standardized guidelines have been

implemented to allow for our nurses to have something to refer to to reduce questions asked by our nurses and then it helps to allow a streamline workflow for a high throughput area this is an acknowledgment to our team members

these were great individuals that helped to us when we were first looking at this Celeste and Aaron are two of our nurses that really helped me dig into our own data and pull out what medications we seen

were linked and correlated to a high-risk bleeding procedure dr. Thomas Atwell dr. John Knutson in dr. John Schmidt's all three of them chair within our department CT in ultrasound operations dr. John Schmidt says our

chair of our contrast and medication and moderate sedation committee so we worked really closely with those three to determine what their recommendations were and what they have pulled from their discussions with members of SAR

so we had to get that in there because unfortunately they couldn't come here with us today all right so now we're

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