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CT Imaging- Acute PE | Management of Patients with Acute & Chronic PE
CT Imaging- Acute PE | Management of Patients with Acute & Chronic PE
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Treatment Options- TransCarotid Artery Revascularization- TCAR | Carotid Interventions: CAE, CAS, & TCAR
Treatment Options- TransCarotid Artery Revascularization- TCAR | Carotid Interventions: CAE, CAS, & TCAR
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The Journey Together | Gold Medal Lecture - Health of Technologists and Nurses and the Role of Compassion in an AI Focused World
The Journey Together | Gold Medal Lecture - Health of Technologists and Nurses and the Role of Compassion in an AI Focused World
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The Landscape of PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
The Landscape of PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
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The Ways to Recanalize the Below the Knee Vessels | AVIR CLI Panel
The Ways to Recanalize the Below the Knee Vessels | AVIR CLI Panel
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Practice Guidelines | Procedural Sedation: An Education Review
Practice Guidelines | Procedural Sedation: An Education Review
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Airway Assessment | Procedural Sedation: An Education Review
Airway Assessment | Procedural Sedation: An Education Review
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Renal Ablation | Interventional Oncology
Renal Ablation | Interventional Oncology
ablationcardiomyopathycentimeterchaptereffusionembolizedfamiliallesionmetastaticparenchymalpatientpleuralrenalspleensurgerytolerated
Massive PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
Massive PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
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The Case that Launched the Cornell PERT (PE Response Team) | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
The Case that Launched the Cornell PERT (PE Response Team) | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
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Bland Embolization | Interventional Oncology
Bland Embolization | Interventional Oncology
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Why is Staging Important | Interventional Oncology
Why is Staging Important | Interventional Oncology
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Q&A- Documentation, Before and After results, Leadership, Culture | Innovation and Application of Real Time Nursing Dashboards
Q&A- Documentation, Before and After results, Leadership, Culture | Innovation and Application of Real Time Nursing Dashboards
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Pulmonary Ablation | Interventional Oncology
Pulmonary Ablation | Interventional Oncology
ablationactivitycancercandidatechaptercolorectalcryodiseaselesionslobelungmetastaticnodulepatientpulmonaryrecurrecurredresectionresidualscansurgical
Why is the Capnography Reading Abnormal- Physiology | Respiratory Compromise: Use of Capnography During Procedural Sedation
Why is the Capnography Reading Abnormal- Physiology | Respiratory Compromise: Use of Capnography During Procedural Sedation
abnormalairwaybaselinebloodcarboncardiacchapterdioxidefeverhealthykrebslunglungsmetabolismmismatchmonitorNonenormalpatientpatientsperfusionphysiologyproducingpulmonarysedationshunttrendsvaluesventilation
Treatment Options- CAS- Embolic Protection Device (EPD)- Distal Protection | Carotid Interventions: CAE, CAS, & TCAR
Treatment Options- CAS- Embolic Protection Device (EPD)- Distal Protection | Carotid Interventions: CAE, CAS, & TCAR
arteriesarteryaspirateballoonbasketbloodbraincapturecarotidcarotid arterycerebralchapterclinicaldebrisdevicedistaldistallyembolicfilterfiltersflowincompleteinternalinternal carotidlesionlesionsoversizeparticlespatientperfectphenomenonplaqueprotectedprotectionproximalsheathstenosisstentstentingstrokestrokesthrombustinyultimatelyvesselwire
Prospective CDT Trials | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
Prospective CDT Trials | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
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MRI Safety & Screening | PET/MRI: A New Technique to Obtain High Quality Diagnostic Images for Oncology Patients
MRI Safety & Screening | PET/MRI: A New Technique to Obtain High Quality Diagnostic Images for Oncology Patients
aneurysmassesscardchaptercontraindicateddefibrillatorsimplantimplantsinjectedinjectionmraMRINonepacemakerspatientpatientsradioactiveremovescanscreenedshieldingzone
Cone Beam CT | Interventional Oncology
Cone Beam CT | Interventional Oncology
ablationanatomicangioarteriesarteryartifactbeamchaptercombconecontrastdoseembolicenhancementenhancesesophagealesophagusgastricgastric arteryglucagonhcchepatectomyinfusinglesionliverlysisoncologypatientsegmentstomach
Mentice Simulator | Cath Lab Academy: An Adjunct to an Orientation Program Using an Interprofessional Approach
Mentice Simulator | Cath Lab Academy: An Adjunct to an Orientation Program Using an Interprofessional Approach
angioangiogramarteriescardiologistscardiologychaptercollimationcontrastcoronarydimensiondimensionsdrapefellowFellowsinjectinterventionallabsMenticemoveNonePhoenixpicturessimulationsimulatorstentstablewires
Submassive PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
Submassive PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
anticoagulationbleedingcategorycathetercatheterschapterclotdecompensatedhemodynamichemorrhagehypoxicinterpretintracraniallobemassivemilligrammortalitypatientsplacebopressorsradiopaqueratesystemicsystolictenecteplasethrombolysistpatrial
The Last 5 Years in PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
The Last 5 Years in PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
aspiratecathetercatheterizedchapterdatadeviceembolismenrollmentinflectionmassiveoptimizedpatientspulmonaryrandomizedsystemicthrombolysisthrombolyticsthrombustrialtrials
Treatment Options- CAS- Embolic Protection Device (EPD)- Proximal Protection | Carotid Interventions: CAE, CAS, & TCAR
Treatment Options- CAS- Embolic Protection Device (EPD)- Proximal Protection | Carotid Interventions: CAE, CAS, & TCAR
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Case 1 - Non-healing heel wound, Rutherford Cat. 5, previous stroke | Recanalization, Atherectomy | Complex Above Knee Cases with Re-entry Devices and Techniques
Case 1 - Non-healing heel wound, Rutherford Cat. 5, previous stroke | Recanalization, Atherectomy | Complex Above Knee Cases with Re-entry Devices and Techniques
abnormalangioangioplastyarteryAsahiaspectBARDBoston Scientificcatheterchaptercommoncommon femoralcontralateralcritical limb ischemiacrossCROSSER CTO recanalization catheterCSICTO wiresdevicediseasedoppleressentiallyfemoralflowglidewiregramhawk oneHawkoneheeliliacimagingkneelateralleftluminalMedtronicmicromonophasicmultimultiphasicocclusionocclusionsoriginpatientsplaqueposteriorproximalpulserecanalizationrestoredtandemtibialtypicallyViance crossing catheterVictory™ Guidewirewaveformswirewireswoundwounds
Why Do We Need Different Directions For Occlusions? | AVIR CLI Panel
Why Do We Need Different Directions For Occlusions? | AVIR CLI Panel
angiogramarteriesaxialchapterclinicalcomplicationscondyleembolicembolizationenhancementhematomaimagekneemedialmicronnervenumbnessocclusivepainparticlespatientsplantarpoplitealsynovialtibialtumorvessel
Indirect Angiography | Interventional Oncology
Indirect Angiography | Interventional Oncology
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Where do we go from here for submassive PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
Where do we go from here for submassive PE | Pulmonary Emoblism Interactive Lecture
catheterchapterdirectedmassivepatientsrandomizedsystemictherapythrombolysistrialtrials
Patient Education PET/MRI | PET/MRI: A New Technique to Obtain High Quality Diagnostic Images for Oncology Patients
Patient Education PET/MRI | PET/MRI: A New Technique to Obtain High Quality Diagnostic Images for Oncology Patients
assesscervicalchaptercontrastdiabeteslymphMRImrisneuroendocrinenodesNoneoncologypatientpatientspelvicperfusionphysicianreferegimenresumetreatmenttumors
Clinical Workflow for PET/MRI | PET/MRI: A New Technique to Obtain High Quality Diagnostic Images for Oncology Patients
Clinical Workflow for PET/MRI | PET/MRI: A New Technique to Obtain High Quality Diagnostic Images for Oncology Patients
arrivesbloodchapterchartcheckcontrastdoseflowgadoliniumglucoseimaginginjectinjectedinjectinginjectionmonitorMRINonenursepatientpatientspneumaticpresencepriorradiologistrobescanscannerscanningscreeningworkflow
Education Strategies to Reduce Human Errors | Looking for risk in all the Right Places: The Anatomy of Errors in Healthcare
Education Strategies to Reduce Human Errors | Looking for risk in all the Right Places: The Anatomy of Errors in Healthcare
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Q&A PET/MRI  | PET/MRI: A New Technique to Obtain High Quality Diagnostic Images for Oncology Patients
Q&A PET/MRI | PET/MRI: A New Technique to Obtain High Quality Diagnostic Images for Oncology Patients
apronsbodychaptercontrastDialysisdischargeinjectinstitutioninstructionslinedminutesMRINonepatientpatientspediatricpediatricsportionprotocolsradiationradiologistrequirescanstechnologist
Transcript

plan as well so I wanted to talk a

little bit about imaging I know with our residents and fellows and radiology that's all we do is talk about the imaging and then when go on to IR we talked to them about the intervention but I think it's important

for everyone in this room to see more imaging and see what we're looking at because it's very important for us all to be doing on the same page whether you're a nurse a technologist a physician or anybody else in the room

we're all taking care of that patient and the more information we all have the better it is for that patient so quick primer on a PE imaging so this is a coned in view of a CT pulmonary angiogram so yeah sometimes you'll see

CTS that are that are set for a pulmonary artery's and you'll see some that are timed for the aorta but if the pulmonary arteries are well pacified you're gonna see thrombus so I have two arrows there showing you thrombus that's

sort of blocking the main pulmonary arteries on the left and right side on the patient's left so the one with the arrow that is a sort of very classic appearance of an intro luminal thrombus you can see a little rim of contrast

surrounding it and it's usually at branch points and it's centered in the vessel the one on the right with the arrow head is really at a big branch point so that's where the right lower lobe segmental branches are coming off

and you can see there's just a big amount of thrombus there you can see distal infarct so if you're looking in the long windows you'll see that there's this kind of it's called a mosaic perfusion but it also what kind of looks

like a cobweb and that's actually pulmonary infarct and maybe some blood there which actually will change what we're gonna do because in those cases freaken we will not perform PE thrombolysis it's also important to note

that acute and chronic PE which we're here to talk about today may look very similar on a CT scan and they have completely different treatment methods so here's a sagittal view from that same patient you can see the CT scan so

between the arrow heads is with the tram track appearance so you'll see that there's thrombus the grey stuff in the middle and you'll see the white contrasts surrounding it and kind of like a tram track and that's very

classic for acute PE and then of course where the big arrow is is just the big thrombus sitting there here's another view of a coronal this is actually on a young woman which I think we show some images on but you can see cannonball

looking thrombus in the main pulmonary arteries very classic variants for acute PE and then this is that same patient in a sagittal view again showing you in the left pulmonary kind of those big cannon balls of

thrombus here's some examples from the literature showing you the same thing when you're looking at an acute PE it's right centered on all the image all the way in the left if the classic thrombus is centered right in the middle of the

vessel you can usually see a rim of normal contrast around it and you can see on a sagittal or coronal view kind of like a thin strip of floating thrombus so the main therapies for acute

quick I did want to mention t-carr briefly and try to get you guys closer to back on time this is a hybrid procedure this is combining the surgical procedure we talked about first and carotid stenting it takes combined

carotid exposure at the base of the clavicle or just above the clavicle and reverses blood flow just like we talked about but tastes slightly different technique or approach to doing this and then you put the stent in from a drug

carotid access here's the components of the device right up by the neck there is where the incision is made just above the clavicle and you have this sheet that's about eight French in size that only goes in about us to 2 cm or 1 and a

half cm overall into the vessel and then that sheath is sutured to the the chest wall and then it's got a side arm that goes what's labeled number six here is this flow reversal urn enroute neuroprotection kit it reverses the

blood flow and then you get a femoral sheath in the vein right in the common femoral vein and you reverse the blood flow so this is a case a picture from our institution up on the right is the patient's neck and that's the carotid

exposure and the initial sheath is in place so the sidearm of that sheath is the enroute protection system which is going up up at the top of the image there we're gonna back bleed that let that sidearm of that sheath continue to

bleed up to the very top and then connect that to the common femoral venous sheet that we have in place there's a stepwise of that and then ultimately what we see at the end of the procedure is that filter inside that

little canister can be interrogated after and you can see the debris this is in the box D here on the bottom left the debris that we captured during the flow reversal and this is a what we call a passive and then active flow reversal

system so once the system is in place the direct exposure carotid sheath in place the flow controller and AV shunt in place you see the direction of blood flow so now all that blood flow in that common carotid artery is going reverse

direction and so when you place a sheath or wire and and ultimately through that sheath up by the carotid artery there's no risk for distal embolization because everything is flowing in Reverse here's a couple

case examples ferns from our institution this is a patient who had a symptomatic critical greater than 90% stenosis has tandems to nose he's so one proximal at the origin and one a little bit more distal we you can see the little

retractors down at the base of the image there in the sheath that's essentially the extent of the sheath from the bottom of that image into the vessel only about a cm or two post angioplasty instant patient tolerated that quite well here's

another 71 year-old asymptomatic patient greater than 90% stenosis pretty calcified lesion a little more extensive than maybe with the CT shows there's the angiography and then ultimately a post stent placement using the embolic

protection device and overall the trials have shown good good safety met profile overall compared to carotid surgery so it's a minimum minimal exposure not nearly as large the risk of stroke is less because you're not mucking around

up there you're using the best of a low profile system with flow reversal albeit with a mini surgical exposure overall we've actually have an abstract or post trip this year's meeting this is just a snapshot of that you can check it out

this is our one year experience we've had comparable low complication rates overall in our experience so in summary

thank you very much for this you know Irish people aren't great at taking compliments it's just not something we do you know and the more we like somebody the worse the things we say about them it's sort of unlike how we communicate with each other you know we

say terrible things about each other like I was watching television one night and this Irish journalist goes mother Teresa not a great nun you know it's like the kind of people we are so um so thank you for this I'm really honored

and I guess it means I'm old if this kind of thing is starting to happen so I'm going to talk about our health and our well-being and I'm going to talk about compassion which is often the most important thing that we do a good

bedside manner you know shaking somebody's hand feeling their pulse and this over-emphasised role of AI in radiology which you don't have to worry about given what you do you will be fine because you practice medicine

so we're going to talk about that I want to thank all the people I've worked with through my career you know Albany med was so good to me letting me into radiology and when I moved from Ireland to the u.s.

Albany was a in the matchbook so I applied there first and they took me I couldn't believe it you know so I've been very lucky always with the people that I worked with and often my techs and nurses you know when my kids were

young and my son had an imaginary friend you know I'd say to one of my nurses it's just normal they go yeah Kieran don't worry about it so it wasn't just the fact that I was working with folks every day this is a

photo of a photo this is my team at Hopkins who we shared enormous risks together and this issue of shared risk is really important you know the patient the procedure the risks the thing we see the stress this this this shared risk is

a huge element in the community that we have when we practice together and you know we work in these highly technical environments if you took physicists like Albert Einstein and you shared with them what you take for

granted they would think that you deserved the Nobel Prize because of your physics knowledge which he didn't have with your knowledge of ultrasound which our knowledge of MRI flipping protons are on the place creating images cone

beam CT the the physics of of you know CT perfusion CT a the physicists who created the quantum field movement the atomic bomb would think you were all greater than them as physicists because of the knowledge you take for granted

every day so this is the group I work with in Toronto there are about as respectful and irreverent as the group in in Baltimore and it's a great place it's very different the patient never sees a bill ever it's a phenomena that's

quite incredible the cost of the healthcare is not part of the patient getting better like when I have my aortic valve replaced and I was in hospital for about three months I never saw a bill I still be dealing with

co-pays and things you know if I was in Baltimore a better title for this talk

I want this to be as instructive as possible I do have some multiple-choice questions that are peppered in there and hopefully you guys feel comfortable enough to shout out answers I really don't care if you get it right or wrong so but if I teach it right I hope it's

clear what the answers are okay so and and I know the title test says that I'm going to be talking about parts frankly I think there's a lot more to talk about about PE other than parts and I'm not going to be emphasizing that

but if there's time to ask questions or I'm happy to speak about that as well because I think the disease and the treatments are really the crux of PE at this point okay so I start with something called the landscape where are

we with pulmonary embolism well you know I don't know how many of you have seen PE in the IR suite or have dealt with these patients or even have friends or family that have had a PE but I don't think anybody who's interacted with this

disease would argue with the fact that PE is a big deal why do I say that statistically speaking well there are 900 000 VTE events per year that's DVT or PE that's a lot it's almost a million now the number of deaths from PE every

years quoted to be as high as 300 000 but is around 60 150 is what we think so quite a few this affects everybody you know you might have heard of Serena Williams getting a PE Chris Bosh and Serena Williams I think had a massive PE

which I'll tell you the definition of that later but it's a it's it's something that can affect a young person and kill that young person so that's what makes it a little bit tougher than some of the other diseases it's the

third most common cause of cardiovascular death stroke mi then PE ten percent are fatal within the first hour so a lot of these patients you're not even gonna see and when you do see them you've got a big task ahead of you

because they're you're trying to rescue them from death that's basically the same statistic now if you were to take every patient who comes into the hospital and you put an echocardiogram on them and you looked at the right

ventricle their right ventricle would show some evidence of dysfunction and so that's an interesting statistic because right ventricular dysfunction is you'll see on a subsequent slide is actually a pretty big deal and is actually at the

crux the pathophysiology of PE now if you were to do a VQ scan around six months after people got a PE you would find that 1/3 of those patients actually have residual thrombus so we think that you

know PE is a acute disease but what we're finding is that it's actually a cute disease that can become chronic and a lot of people and we're actually revealing unveiling the fact that maybe a year or two years after their PE these

patients aren't doing as well as we thought so that this is a burden it's a chronic it's a chronic disease that causes a burden on their lives so this is the disease and and you know as an IR you look at this and you say well that's

pretty exciting looks like we can intervene on something meaningfully but there are some caveats we should remember first most patients have low risk PE s I'll define that in a little bit but these patients don't need an

intervention they just need anticoagulation to the best of our knowledge that says all this this group needs sub massive PE I'll spend quite a bit of time on and it's a very controversial topic and there's a

lot of different attitudes between interventionalists and non interventionists about sub massive PE when you get a massive PE patient this is the patient that's crashing and burning most of them should receive

systemic thrombolysis which is an IV in the arm and a drug through their vein it's the fastest thing you can do and it doesn't involve corralling an IR suite the team for the IR suite or a surgical team and as I just said there's a wide

range of attitudes regarding treatment aggressiveness so I'm not going to go

they travel together so that's what leads to the increased pain and sensitivity so in the knee there have been studies like 2015 we published that study on 13 patients with 24 month follow-up for knee embolization for

bleeding which you may have seen very commonly in your institution but dr. Okun Oh in 2015 published that article on the bottom left 14 patients where he did embolization in the knee for people with arthritis he actually used an

antibiotic not imposing EMBO sphere and any other particle he did use embolus for in a couple patients sorry EMBO zine in a couple of patients but mainly used in antibiotic so many of you know if antibiotics are like crystalline

substances they're like salt so you can't inject them in arteries that's why I have to go into IVs so they use this in Japan to inject and then dissolve so they go into the artery they dissolve and they're resorbable so they cause a

like a light and Baalak effect and then they go away he found that these patients had a decrease in pain after doing knee embolization subsequently he published a paper on 72 patients 95 needs in which he had an

excellent clinical success clinical success was defined as a greater than 50% reduction in knee pain so they had more than 50% reduction in knee pain in 86 percent of the patients at two years 79 percent of these patients still had

knee pain relief that's very impressive results for a procedure which basically takes in about 45 minutes to an hour so we designed a u.s. clinical study we got an investigational device exemption actually Julie's our clinical research

coordinator for this study and these are the inclusion exclusion criteria we basically excluded patients who have rheumatoid arthritis previous surgery and you had to have moderate or severe pain so greater than 50 means basically

greater than five out of ten on a pain scale we use a pain scale of 0 to 100 because it allows you to delineate pain a little bit better and you had to be refractory to something so you had to fail medications injections

radiofrequency ablation you had to fail some other treatment we followed these patients for six months and we got x-rays and MRIs before and then we got MRIs at one month to assess for if there was any non-target embolization likes a

bone infarct after this procedure these are the clinical scales we use to assess they're not really so important as much as it is we're trying to track pain and we're trying to check disability so one is the VA s or visual analog score and

on right is the Womack scale so patients fill this out and you can assess how disabled they are from their knee pain it assesses their function their stiffness and their pain it's a little

bit limiting because of course most patients have bilateral knee pain so we try and assess someone's function and you've improved one knee sometimes them walking up a flight of stairs may not improve significantly but their pain may

improve significantly in that knee when we did our patients these were the baseline demographics and our patients the average age was 65 and you see here the average BMI in our patients is 35 so this is on board or class 1 class 2

obesity if you look at the Japanese study the BMI in that patient that doctor okano had published the average BMI and their patient population was 25 so it gives you a big difference in the patient population we're treating and

that may impact their results how do we actually do the procedure so we palpate the knee and we feel for where the pain is so that's why we have these blue circles on there so we basically palpate the knee and figure

out is the pain medial lateral superior inferior and then we target those two Nicollet arteries and as depicted on this image there are basically 6 to Nicollet arteries that we look for 3 on the medial side 3 on the lateral side

once we know where they have pain we only go there so we're not going to treat the whole knee so people come in and say my whole knee hurts they're not really going to be a good candidate for this procedure you want focal synovitis

or inflammation which is what we're looking for and most people have medial and Lee pain but there are a small subset of patients of lateral pain so this is an example patient from our study says patient had an MRI beforehand

so my name's Heather I'm a nurse in interventional radiology at NYU Langone health in New York and I am the clinical resources for our department so what that means is I'm responsible for individualizing our education to meet the needs of our department and one of

the first things I wanted to look at when I took on the role was our procedural sedation practices and how we can improve by enhancing our knowledge this presentation includes many of the lessons and concepts that I learned

along the way that I think are really important to understanding how to effectively administer procedural sedation so our learning objectives are going to be a review of the guidelines pre-procedure assessment components

including airway assessment pharmacology of the medications that we give and intra procedure assessment so this is the 2018 AAS a practice guidelines for a procedural sedation by non anesthesiologist has everyone seen this

good great as so this is especially important because as you'll see the American College of Radiology and Society of interventional radiology were involved in its development so this is our guideline and I think it's really

important to look at this look at the practice recommendations and see how they align with your own practice and if there may be some changes you need to make first thing you always want to look at when you're reviewing any sort of

literature whether it's evidence-based guidelines or maybe just a review article is you want to look at the methodology that the author used to create the guideline so anybody know why that's important you just shout it out

so if I want to write a guideline for procedural sedation I could find a bunch of studies or review articles that fit my point of view and use them throw them at the bottom and that would be that but even if I use for an demise control

trials which are considered the gold standard of experimental research those randomized controlled trials could be poorly constructed randomized controlled trials so they may have introduced bias at some point into the study

that's skewed the outcome and the findings so you really want to make sure that the authors of the guideline that you're looking at appraise the research that they're using to support their recommendations and that's what the

aasa' task force did so they used randomized control trials and observational studies and then they categorize the strength and the quality of the study findings so as you're going through you'll see that statistically

significant was deemed a p-value of less than 0.01 and outcomes were designated as either beneficial harmful or equivocal equivocal meaning this findings were not significant one way or the other and then they also used

opinion based evidence from experts so they surveyed members of their task force and they did take into account some informal opinion from message boards and letters to the editor so I think a good example here is one of

their recommendations about capnography so they did a meta-analysis of randomized control trials that indicated that the use of continuous and title carbon dioxide monitoring was associated with a reduced frequency of hypoxemic

events when compared to monitoring without capnography and then you'll see at the end of the recommendations this category so for this particular recommendation they labeled it as category a1 - B evidence and what that's

telling you as category a means it was a randomized control trial which is great it was a level one meaning it's a high level of strength and quality and B is telling you that there was statistically significant findings that demonstrated

benefit to the patient now another recommendation that you may see as you're reading through would be the NPO guidelines so if you look at any of the literature about NPO recommendations it's really all expert

opinion because all of the evidence has shown equivocal findings so for example one of the studies they looked at compared the outcomes of patients who had clear liquids one hour prior to the procedure versus two hours and they

found no change in the outcome I think it's important when you're a provider and you're looking at that because you're gonna base your judgment calls on the evidence so you may have a patient come in who had tea up until one hour

prior to their procedure and you have to make a decision whether or not you want to cancel or proceed and you could look at the findings of the literature that shows that there really hasn't been a proven difference in outcomes so you may

decide to just do the procedure versus capnography there's very strong evidence showing it's beneficial to the patient always so I think this is a real big take-home point of why we do everything we do about procedural sedation all of

our assessments and enhancing our practice as a sedation is a continuum and practitioners intending to produce a given level of sedation should be able to rescue the patients whose level of sedation becomes deeper than initially

intended pre-procedure our assessment

all about effective bag-valve-mask it's the mainstay of airway management and procedural sedation but also in the o.r so you're gonna see if you're ever working with an anesthesiologist that

the first thing they want to see is how easily they can ventilate the patient with a mask and if they have trouble they know that's potentially going to be a patient that may give them difficulty later on when they're attempting to

intubate because when they go to intubate the patient if they're not successful they immediately stop and go back to bagging the patient they want to know that that's gonna be there their failsafe and that they have an

effective way of delivering breaths the difficult airway is going to be defined in terms of whether effective gas exchange can take place with an Ambu bag so at NYU we use the sorry we use the Mallampati so this classification system

attempts to grade the degree of airway difficulty the foundation of the assessment is that the tongue is the largest anatomical structure that can inhibit mask ventilation now again if you look at the research surrounding

this Mallampati used in isolation it's not useful you really want to look at all of the other airway assessment criteria that I just previously discussed because it's on our required documentation you know it can be

something that maybe providers get focused on just open your mouth cool and move on but it really is important to look at all the other components not to call out my attending sitting over there so this is a great mnemonic that I like

moans it's just a quick easy way to identify a patient that may give you a little bit of trouble when it comes to manual ventilation so M is for mask o for OB 3a for age and for no teeth and s for stiff lungs so you can see with this

patient here with the beard he has a lot of facial hair so that's a patient that you're gonna have a difficulty getting a good seal with and if you can see they actually covered his beard with Tegaderm in order to get an effective seal right

painful later but great for his airway um last thing yes at this point oh great this points you guys can still hear me okay so for this patient for for obese patients in general my biggest pain point I guess you could say is when I

see patients inappropriately position during procedural sedation and a nurse will call and say the patient's not really well sedated but his his capnography waveform looks all off he's occasionally having periods of apnea can

you come and help and the patient looks like this so a patient who's sedated is not going to be able to comfortably spontaneously mentally win their position like that you can see his airway is a little bit compressed here

he has to overcome extra body habitus in order to effectively take a breath so what you want to do is just ramp your patient and this is obviously extreme like if you're doing an angiogram you're not the providers gonna say what on

earth are you doing but what you can do is take that pillow out and put a little roll underneath the shoulders and you're gonna see the airway open up and if I get patients who come in and they can't be flat maybe they have congestive heart

failure so they have that pillow orthopnea you can position them like this give them the sedation and then take everything out that's what I always do you you want to make sure that you have

good positioning and that's going to set you up for success patients who are elderly or have no teeth are going to be what we call a dentist and they essentially just have loss of musculature in the face which is going

to correlate with surface area which means you're not gonna be able to get a good seal so what they did in this particular patient is they actually put gauze in to just increase that surface area and then patients with stiff lungs

are going to be patients who have a history of COPD or any other restrictive lung disease and they just may be difficult to ventilate Pharmacology and

different applications renal ablation is very common when do we use it

high surgical risk patients primary metastatic lesions some folks are actually refused surgery nowadays and saying I'll have a one centimeter reno lesion actually want this in lieu of surgery people have

familial syndromes they're prone to getting a renal cancer again so we're trying to preserve renal tissue it is the most renal parenchymal sparing modality and obviously have a single kidney and a lot of these are found

incidentally when they're getting a CT scan for something else here's a very sizable one the patient that has a cardiomyopathy can see how big the heart is so it's you know seven centimeter lesion off of the left to superior pole

against the spleen this patient wouldn't have tolerated bleeding very much so we went ahead and embolized it beforehand using alcohol in the pide all in a coil and this is what it looks like when you have all those individual ice probes all

set up within the lesion and you can see the ice forming around I don't know how well it projects but in real time you can determine if you've developed your margin we do encompass little bit of spleen with that and you can see here

that you have a faint rim surrounding that lesion right next to the spleen and that's the necrotic fat that's how you know that you got it all and just this ablation alone caused a very reactive pleural

effusion that you can see up on the CT over there so imagine how this patient would have tolerated surgery pulmonary

about massive PE so let's remember this slide 25 to 65 percent mortality what do we do with this what's our goal what's

our role as interventionalists here well we need to rescue these patients from death you know this it's a coin flip that they're going to die we need to really that there's only one job we have is to save this person's life get them

out of that vicious cycle get more blood into the left ventricle and get their systemic blood pressure up what are our tools systemic thrombolysis at the top catherine directed therapy at the right and surgical level that what

unblocked me at the left as I said before the easiest thing to do is put an IV in and give systemic thrombolysis but what's interesting is it's very much underused so this is a study from Paul Stein he looked at the National

inpatient sample database and he found that patients that got thrombolytic therapy with hypotension and this is all based on icd-10 coding actually had a better outcome than those who didn't we have several other studies that support

this but you look at this and it seems like our use of thrombolytics and massive PE is going down and I think into the for whatever reason that that the specter of bleeding is really on people's minds and and for and we're not

using systemic thrombolysis as often as we should that being said there are cases in which thrombolytics are contraindicated or in which they fail and that opens the door for these other therapies surgical unblocked demand

catheter active therapy surgical unblocked mean really does have a role here I'm not going to speak about it because I'm an interventionist but we can't forget that so catheter directed therapy all sorts

of potential options you got the angio vac device over here you've got the penumbra cat 8 device here you've got an infusion catheter both here and here you've got the cleaner device I haven't pictured the inari float

Reaver which is a great new device that's entered the market as well my message to you is that you can throw the kitchen sink at these patients whatever it takes to open up a channel and get blood to the left ventricle you can do

now that being said there is the angio jet which has a blackbox warning in the pulmonary artery I will never use it because I'm not used to using it but you talk to Alan Matsumoto Zieve Haskell these guys have a lot of experience with

the androgen and PE they know how to use it but I would say though they're the only two people that I know that should use that device because it is associated with increased death within the setting of PE we don't really know you know with

great precision why that happens but theoretically what that causes is a release of adenosine can cause bradycardia bradycardia and massive p/e they just don't mix well so

let me show you a case of massive PE

this launched our pert pert PE response team 30 year-old man transcranial resection of a pituitary tumor post-op seizures intracranial frontal lobe hemorrhage okay so after his brain surgery developed a frontal lobe

hemorrhage and of course few days after that developed hypotension and hypoxia and was found to have a PE and this is what the PE look like so I'll go back to this one that's clot in the IVC right there and

that's clot in the right main pulmonary artery on this side clot in the IVC clot in the right main pulmonary artery systolic blood pressure was around 90 millimeters of mercury for about an hour he was getting more altered tachycardic

he was in the 120s at this point we realized he was not going the right direction for some reason the surgeon didn't want to touch him still to this day not sure why but that was the case he was brought to the ir suite and I had

a great Mickey attending who came with him and decided to start him on pressors and basically treat him like an ICU patient while I was trying to get rid of his thrombus so it came from the neck because I was conscious of this clot in

the IVC and I didn't want to dislodge it as I took my catheters past it and you see the Selective pulmonary and on selective pulmonary angiogram here and there's some profusion to the left lung and basically none to the right lung

take a sheath out to the right side and do an injection that you see all this cast of thrombus you really see no pulmonary perfusion here you can understand why at this point this man is not doing well what I did at this point

was give a little bit of TPA took a pigtail started trying to spin it through aspirated a little bit wasn't getting anywhere he was actually getting worse I was starting to feel very very nervous I had remembered for my AV

fistula work that there was this thing called the cleaner I don't have any stake in the company but I said you know I don't have a lot to lose here and I thought maybe this would be better than me trying to spin a pigtail through

the clock so the important thing about the cleaners it does not go over a wire so you have to take the sheet out then take out the wire then put the cleaner through that sheath and withdraw the sheath

you can't bareback it especially in the pulmonary circulation the case reports are poking through the pulmonary artery and causing massive hemorrhage and the pulmonary artery does not have an adventitia which is the outer layer just

a little bit thinner than your average artery okay so activated it deployed it and you started to get better and this is what it looked like at the end now this bonus question does somebody see anything on this this picture here that

made me very happy on this side this picture here that made me feel like hey we're getting somewhere I'm sorry the aorta the aorta you start to see the aorta exactly and that that was something I was not seen before the

point being that even though this doesn't look that good in terms of your final image the fact that you see filling in the aorta and mine it might have been some of the stuff I had done earlier I can't I can't pinpoint which

of the interventions actually worked but that's what I'm looking for I'm looking for aortic blood flow because now I've got a hole in that in that clot that's getting blood flow to the left ventricle which starts to reverse that RV

dysfunction that we were concerned about make sure I'm okay with time so we'll

we're gonna move on to embolization there a couple different categories of embolization bland embolization is when

you just administering something that is choking off the blood supply to the tumor and that's how it's going to exert its effect here's a patient with a very large metastatic renal cell lesion to the humerus this is it on MRI this is it

per angiogram and this patient was opposed to undergo resection so we bland embolized it to reduce bleeding and I chose this one here because we used sequentially sized particles ranging from 100 to 200 all

the way up to 700 and you can actually if you look closely can see sort of beads stacked up in the vessel but that's all that it's doing it's just reducing the blood supply basically creating a stroke within the tumor that

works a fair amount of time and actually an HCC some folks believe that it were very similar to keep embolization which is where at you're administering a chemo embolic agent that is either l'p hi doll with the chemo agent suspended within it

or drug eluting beads the the Chinese have done some randomized studies on whether or not you can also put alcohol in the pie at all and that's something we've adopted in our practice too so anything that essentially is a chemical

outside of a bland agent can be considered a key mobilization so here's a large segment eight HCC we've all been here before we'll be seeing common femoral angiogram a selective celiac run you can make sure

the portals open in that segment find the anterior division pedicle it's going to it select it and this is after drug living bead embolization so this is a nice immediate response at one month a little bit of gas that's expected to be

within there however this patient had a 70% necrosis so it wasn't actually complete cell death and the reason is it's very hard to get to the absolute periphery of the blood supply to the tumor it is able to rehab just like a

stroke can rehab from collateral blood supply so what happens when you have a lesion like this one it's kind of right next to the cod a little bit difficult to see I can't see with ultrasound or CT well you can go in and tag it with lip

Idol and it's much more conspicuous you can perform what we call dual therapy or combination therapy where you perform a microwave ablation you can see the gas leaving the tumor and this is what it looks like afterwards this patient went

to transplant and this was a complete pathologic necrosis so you do need the concept of something that's ablative very frequently to achieve that complete pathologic necrosis rates very hard to do that with ischemia or chemotherapy

alone so what do you do we have a

so why staging important well when you go to treat someone if I tell you I have a lollipop shaped tumor and you make a lollipop shape ablation zone over it you have to make sure that it's actually a lollipop shaped to begin with so here's

a patient I was asked to ablate at the bottom corner we had a CT scan that showed pretty nice to confined lesion looked a little regular so we got an MRI the MRI shows that white signal that's around there then hyperintensity that's

abnormal and so when we did an angiogram you can see that this is an infiltrate of hepatocellular carcinoma so had I done an ablation right over that center-of-mass consistent with what we saw on the CT it

wouldn't be an ablation failure the blasian was doing its job we just wouldn't have applied it to where the tumor actually was so let's talk about

about you rolled out the radiant in 2015 and all of this data is great but it's reliant on the nurses documenting it in

all their different areas so how did you did you actually when you built this dashboard did you leave blanks because you just didn't have the data available or did you circle back around and hold the nurses accountable how did you do

that trying to motivate them and engage them rather than it looking like a disciplinary action because you're showing that they're not documenting appropriately yes and that's part of our journey from 2013 we started all these

projects it became evident that document documentation was important when it came to the data and so we actually started training from our technologists and and then to our nurses we created standard work for how they documented time stamps

I'm at different points in the process we audit we audited that for a while to make sure that they were compliant with that documentation so so we embarked on a lot of projects and I did a to greenbelt projects I did one in

interventional radiology and I did one on beginning complete because you really have to start at the ground and if people's reporting is not good you have to fix it so we have a definition for beginning complete for our

technologists which cleaned their data up then we did a project with Jeannie's nurses around and Tommy did some auditing around the time stamps in their system and that took a long time so yes you have to clean your data up first

and that takes projects in order and we also did Tommy led all of us to look at our data and a data validate sort of like Gilbert's thing you know so is it really valid and so we did a lot of work around that as well

the nurses do with themselves and the nursing supervisor did it as well to make sure and the technologists help you with that because what we found is when we handed the data to the nurses and we had them do their audits it was more

impactful than when we did it how would you say your start times improved from pre project pre dashboard to current how did you measure that was the time yes so that was actually interesting especially in interventional radiology because it

it when we started rolling off the Huddle's and the dashboards we had some participation in the with the technologists and the nurses and the providers doing their Huddle's and looking at the information and then

there was a period of time when they stopped doing that and they actually and they actually saw a drop in there on time starts so when we started up they were around maybe 40% on-time start and then when they consistently did their

Huddle's and looked at the - would I use the information they quickly jumped to 60 65 percent so and when they stopped dropped again so it was sort of it proved that that the tools actually worked and now they're actually going

back and owning the work of their own to continue T their Huddle's and use the dashboards in real time yeah rome wasn't built in a day and would you say that this is significantly impacted employee engagement yes I will definitely say it

has previously we had a real sort of segmented nursing work you know silo's and now we have like this cohesive team of nursing and and physicians and technologists working together in IR I will say also part of

our leadership team crisp as part of this as well our senior leaders we did a job we did a change in sort of our leadership structure so before it was like the physicians they led their physicians the technologists led their

technician technologists and the nurses led theirs well we in got a team together so we have a nurse manager the chair of interventional radiology the nursing supervisor and the nursing technologist

and supervisor and we lead as a team now and so we look at volumes together we look at budgets together we look at staffing together so it's not no longer just leading in silos so with that consistency in that that that sort of

got them all together and then so then they see that you can't hit a technologist against a nurse in a physician against a nurse or a technologist because we're all one team and that was a big part of helping this

out yeah sorry before that I was just going to talk about how important leadership was in this so Chris is our operations manager and I would say she made all of this perseverance tommy's the brains I'm the Brawn so I

would like to ask you give more details on the culture like what you were just describing about becoming a multidisciplinary team sure um that's a good vision but practically how did you accomplish so the culture was really

really hard and my Greenbelt project that I did back in 2013 was not successful because of the culture and what we learned was that we had to do something about the culture Jeannie alluded to the fact that our our

department chair dr. chair Toth and our administrative director Karen Buttrey talked to me about this and and they decided it was important that they had leadership teams in each modality so every modality and radiology has a

leader it is the division director the technologists lead and if there's a nurse a nursing lead they meet once a month tommy's does the score cards for them they bring their score cards they bring their a3 reports on

their strategic plan and they sit as a group I sit with them as well and we talk about how they're aligning their strategy to their work what the culture is like and do we need help sometimes we bring HR in if we think we need help

and geney's done a lot of leadership training with the nurses she's very good at it we have Conaty so we've partnered with Dartmouth and we send different teams to Conaty to learn leadership training this

has been really this all started really in 2013 and it continues today and we work just as hard on it as we did in 2013 Neverending yeah and I was part of that Conaty training and it was phenomenal so

it was two of the IR physicians myself the business manager and another radiology technologist supervisor and so really we had to work on a project together and it really brought us together to understand each other's work

and for um I feel like probably the strongest you know asset I have is relationships and and making those connections and nursing wasn't my first career I did practice management and so I worked for a doctor's office and I

kind of know that you have to sort of make sure that everyone understands that we're all trying to get we're all trying to take care of the patient and we all have different responsibilities to do so and there's a crossover if we fight

against each other then nothing's going to work and so that was where I I feel like I probably did the best these again you know brains and brawn and I was just sort of like let's make it all work together people with it so

was that something that you had to work into the amount of hours that it takes to maintain the new task that was being asked for yes so the documentation is part of their work to take care of the patient so for a technologist for

example when they go get the patient from the waiting room they start the beginning the exam in Radian those are things they need to do - as part of the EMR to actually accomplish their work so that was by design already part of their

workflow we just had to make sure that they were all doing it at the same point in time so for example before we standardized the definitions we would have some technologists who would begin the exam when they went to go again the

patient some will do it after they had set up the rooms so we have to standardize all of it so the data was measuring at the same points and for the nurses as well as part of their documentation as they work up the

patient so it's all part of the flow the other thing we do that I want to mention quickly because we're out of time is rounding so rounding is really important so I am the operations manager I probably around three times a day in

every modality and as an example I was just in mr and I saw a red button on their dashboard and I said why aren't we 19 minutes behind and somebody had forgot to complete the exam and everybody was there and they were

talking to me about it and they said yep and they ran back and they you know so I stay engaged the supervisors Jeanne I have two other supervisors tomy rounds you have to keep the conversation going you can't just build these and think

they're gonna take care of themselves because they're not you have to really do that disciplined rounding work so thank you everyone very much yeah thank you and just some related articles that

other other institutions have used for healthcare dashboards I found really really great so I don't know if this is true but I think they're going to send the slides after yeah conference oh yeah yeah afterwards we're happy to stay here

thank you

blasian it's well tolerated and folks with advanced pulmonary disease there's a prospective trial that showed that

there are pulmonary function does not really change after an ablation but the important part here is a lot of these folks who are not candidates for surgical resection have bad hearts a bad coronary disease and bad lungs to where

a lot of times that's actually their biggest risk not their small little lung cancer and you can see these two lines here the this is someone who dr. du Puy studied ablation and what happens if you recur and how your survival matches that

and turns out that if you recur and in if you don't actually a lot of times this file is very similar because these folks are such high risk for mortality outside or even their cancer so patient selection is really important for this

where do we use it primary metastatic lesions essentially once we feel that someone is not a good surgical candidate and they have maintained pulmonary function they have a reasonable chance for surviving a long

time we'll convert them to being an ablation candidate here's an example of a young woman who had a metastatic colorectal met that was treated with SPRT and it continued to grow and was avid so you can see the little nodule

and then the lower lobe and we paste the placement prone and we'd Vance a cryo plugs in this case of microwave probe into it and you turn off about three to five minutes and it's usually sufficient to burn it it cavitate s-- afterwards

which is expected but if you follow it over time the lesion looks like this and you say okay fine did it even work but if you do a PET scan you'll see that there's no actually activity in there and that's usually pretty definitive for

those small lesions like that about three centimeters is the most that will treat in a lot of the most attic patients but you can certainly go a little bit larger here's her follow-up actually two years

that had no recurrence so what do you do when you have something like this so this is encasing the entire left upper lobe this patient underwent radiation therapy had a low area of residual activity we followed it and it turns out

that ended up being positive on a biopsy for additional cancer so now we're playing cleanup which is that Salvage I mentioned earlier we actually fuse the PET scan with the on table procedural CT so we know which part of all that

consolidated lung to target we place our probes and this is what looks like afterwards it's a big hole this is what happens when you microwave a blade previously radiated tissue having said that this

was a young patient who had no other options and this is the only side of disease this is probably an okay complication for that patient to undergo so if you follow up with a PET scan three months later there's no residual

activity and that patient actually never recurred at that site so what about

is my cap nog Rafi reading actually I want to back up a little bit here do I want to back up no I don't I don't want to back up so um let's look at the first

question why is my cap nog Rafi reading abnormal so let's first talk about physiology so a question I get a lot of times is sue the patient comes down for a procedure to the floor I put a sample line set on

them I plug them into the monitor and I'm getting a value of 28 29 30 why are my values abnormal anyone ever see this is anyone still awake okay so there's a few reasons the patients that we are dealing with generally aren't

healthy right I mean sometimes I go to work and I get chest pain I'm like can I just be in an ambulatory gallbladder room today because the patients that are coming from down to IR are sick what their physiology is sick too so we have

Krebs cycle we take oxygen in right it circulates to ourselves it participates in aerobic metabolism we get the byproducts of heat and energy and we get carbon dioxide as a by-product carbon dioxide really diffuse about diffuses

into our blood travels to the lungs and gets exhaled where we measure it so let's talk metabolism really quickly so if someone has a fever if their metabolism is ramped up you think they're gonna be producing more carbon

dioxide yes let's say they're a little hypothermic maybe they're gonna be producing a little bit less you see it for sure in the car patients who are cardiac arrest that are cool to status post cardiac

arrest right those values go way down normal physiology normal physiologic response somebody comes down and they're mildly hypoxic they've got pneumonia or some sort of VQ mismatch and they're hyperventilating to UM debeso

compensate for their hypoxia do you think there's co2 values gonna be a little lower at baseline yeah so these are the patients that you're seeing right so we have reasons that patients could be hyper cap neck like metabolism

right somebody who's in pain someone who's developing a fever early stages of sepsis they may actually have a little bit of a higher value somebody who's sedated or hypoventilating may have a higher value and when we talk about

perfusion is the blood moving round and round is that circulating co2 coming back to the core do we have increased cardiac output with continuous constant ventilation and certainly we can we're gonna look at equipment issues next and

the same goes true more probably in your cases of the hypocapnia patient so someone who is not fully exhaling someone who's in bronchospasm or a COPD or you're not getting that nice square waveform you're only getting some of the

mixed gas ventilation that they're exhaling rights and the conducting airway is mixing with the alveolar gases someone's a little hypothermic someone who's been NPO for 24 hours right it's the opposite of carb-loading right so

you kind of throw them into a little bit of like acidosis you know they're kind of not burning carbs for fuel are they gonna be producing as much carbon dioxide not so much right so when you're coming so when

patients come down to you and you put them on the monitor consider these things so ventilation perfusion gradients so we have what we call our VQ matches and our body is designed beautifully right so when everything is

working great it works great so the way we ventilate all of our lungs owns is very closely matched to the perfusion of all of our lungs ohms so by me standing up here I'd like to think I'm pretty healthy if you did a blood gas and you

put me on one of those filter line sets right now you would hopefully see a gradient that's very small the normal gradient between a PA co2 on a blood gas so the level of carbon dioxide on a blood gas in the arterial blood and what

you see when I fully exhale into the monitor should be between two and five millimeters so these are your patients come down healthy physiology you put them on and you get a value of like 32 then you

could assume that if they were healthy two to five millimeters okay their blood gas would probably like 35 for POC to everyone follow now does any of our patients read the physiology tech books textbooks no they typically don't so

when you have patients come down they may have shunt right so they may have we have our little airway here a and B you're out like picture them as lungs and lung a is blocked so we have no ventilation going to lung a but blood is

still chugging through right so blood is still going through the pulmonary circuit so we're gonna have Patapsco a dia depending on the size of the shunt is this the end of the world are we gonna cancel the case no but just being

aware of the patient's physiology would explain to you why I put this patient on this and I'm getting a value of 30 you follow and it's not the end of the world you document 30 and you monitor for trends as you're going along with your

sedation same thing goes through with dead space dead spaces were ventilating but we have an area of the lung that is not being perfused pulmonary emboli other circulations some medications hypovolemia shocky patients same thing

the VQ mismatch not the end of the world it's part of the patient's physiology maybe part of the reason why they're down there just being aware of these things though so the technology works right our equipment works if just amazed

it's picking up something that we don't connect all the dots on physiologically that sometimes confuses us a little bit so I hope that clears up part of it so when we're monitoring capnography certainly ventilation is what we think

of first and it's important co2 being expired by the lungs that's what we're looking for but if we back up and look at the physiology of carbon dioxide production in the body we are also inferring that

it's being metabolized and being created from Krebs cycle and aerobic metabolism and that we have perfusion occurring okay I'm sure if some of us have seen in our you know nursing careers patients who are kind of peri-arrest and

the capnography kind of drops off it's like a poor man's swan you're watching cardiac output drop in real time because carbon carbon dioxide is not being delivered to the lungs so when we're looking at our patients when

they first come down we first want to establish a baseline value we want to put on a monitor have a patient take some nice deep breaths full ventilations not just one but a few you want to you know have them take a few and look at

their other vital signs their mental baseline status and we're gonna look for trends in their carbon dioxide value so if someone starts off at twenty nine I don't care that they're not 35 to 45 which is textbook normal this person may

not have the stimulus to breathe if I let too much co2 accumulate so we're really looking for the trends okay now somebody will say well how much of you know how much should we look for 10 to 20 percent change from your baseline is

somewhere where you want to start paying attention to what's going on okay maybe like titrating your sedation or just being a little bit more cautious with how much more sedation but again it's more important to look at the trend

value behavior of your carbon dioxide than it is the absolute numbers themselves so first you having a problem let's consider the patient's physiology

kind of the embolic protection because I think with carotid artery stenting the stents there's a lot of different types they're all self expanding for the most

part and there's not a lot to talk about there but there is with regards to embolic protection and there so there's distal and violent protection where you have this where that blue little sheath in the common carotid artery you got a

wire through the ica stenosis and a little basket or filter distally before you put the stent in early on they used to think oh maybe we'll do distal balloon occlusion put a balloon up distally do your intervention aspirate

whatever collects behind the balloon and then take the balloon down not so ideal because you never really asked for it a hundred percent of the debris and then whatever whenever you deflate the balloon it goes back it goes up to the

brain you still have some embolic phenomenon in the cerebral vascular churn and then there's this newer concept of proximal protection where you use either flow reversal reverse the blood flow in the cerebral circulation

or you actually cause a stagnant column of blood in the ica so you can't get you don't get anything that embolize is up distally but you have this stagnant column the debris collects there you aspirate that actively before you take

down the balloons that are in position in the X carotids and common carotid artery and then you take everything out so let's walk through each of these if you really wanted to pick out the perfect embolic

protection device it's got to be relatively easy to use it's got to be stable in position so it's not moving up and down and causing injury to the vessel but even while it's in place cerebral perfusion is maintained so that

balloon the distal balloon not a great idea because you're cutting off all the blood flow to the brain you might stop something from embolizing up distally but in the process of doing that you may patient may not tolerate that you want

complete protection during all aspects of the procedure so when we place a filter as you'll see just crossing the lesion with the initial filter can cause a distal embolus so that's a problem you want to be able to use your guide wire

choice as many of you know when we go through peripheral vasculature there's your go-to wires but it doesn't always work every time with that one go-to wire so you want to be able to pick the wire that you want to use or

change it up if needed for different lesions so if you get to use your wire of choice then then that's gonna be a better system than something that's man deter and then if you have a hard time using that wire to get across the lesion

you have a problem overall and then ultimately where do you land that protection device and a few diagrams here to help illustrate this generally speaking these distal embolic protection these filters that go beyond

the lesion have been used for quite a while and are relatively safe you can see them pretty easily and geographically they have little markers on them that signify if they're open or closed and we look for that overall and

blood flows through them it's just a little sieve a little basket that collects really tiny particles micrometers in size but allows blood flow to pass through it so you're not actually causing any cessation of blood

flow to the brain but you are protecting yourself from that embolic debris and it's generally well tolerated overall we had really good results in fact when not using this device there's a lot of strokes that were occurring in use of

this device dramatic reduction so a significant improvement in this procedural area by utilization of embolic protection however distal embolic protection or filter devices are not a perfect APD as you as you may know

those of you have been involved in carotid stenting there is no cerebral protection when you cross the lesion if you have a curlicue internal carotid artery this filter doesn't sit right and and ultimately may not cause

good protection or actually capture everything that breaks off the plaque and it can be difficult to deliver in those really tortuous internal carotid arteries so ultimately you can cross the lesion but you may not get this filter

up if you don't get the filter up you can't put the stent then ultimately you're out of luck so you gotta have a different option filters may not provide complete cerebral protection if they're not fully opposed and again it does

allow passage of really tiny particles right so your blood cells have to be able to pass but even though it's less than about a hundred microns may be significant enough to cause a significant stroke if it goes to the

right basket of territory so it's not perfect protection and then if you have so much debris you can actually overload the filter fill it up in tile and entirely and then you have a point where when you capture the filter there's some

residual debris that's never fully captured either so these are concerns and then ultimately with that filter in place you can cause a vessel dissection when you try to remove it or if it's bouncing up and down without good

stability you can cause spasm to the vessel as well and so these are the things that we look for frequently because we want to make sure that ultimately if we just sent the lesion but we don't believe the vessel distal

to it intact and we're going to have a problem so here's some kind of illustrated diagrams for this here's a sheath in the common carotid artery you see your plaque lesion in the internal carotid artery and you're trying to

cross this with that filter device that's what's the picture on the right but as you're crossing that lesion you're you're liberating a little plaque or debris which you see here and during that period of time until the filters in

place you're not protected so all that debris is going up to the brain so there's that first part of the procedure where you're not protected that's one of the pitfalls or concerns particularly with very stenotic lesions or friable

lesions like this where you're not protected until that filters in place that first step you never are protected in placement of a filter here's an example where you have a torturous internal carotid artery so you see this

real kink these are kinds of carotid internal carotid arteries that we can see and if you place that filter in that bend that you can see right at the bend there the bottom part the undersurface of the carotid doesn't have good wall

my position of the filter so debris can can slip past the filter on the under under surface of this which is a real phenomenon and you can see that you can say well what if we oversize the filter if you oversize the filter then it then

it just oval eyes Azure or it crimps and in folds on itself so you really have to size this to the specific vessel that you plan to target it in but just the the physics of this it's it's a tube think about a balloon a balloon doesn't

conform to this it tries to straighten everything out this isn't going to straighten the vessel out so it doesn't fully conform on the full end of the filter and you have incomplete a position and therefore

incomplete filtration so this is another failure mode I mentioned before what if it gets overloaded so here's a diagram where you have all this debris coming up it's filling up the really tiny tiny particles go past it because this little

micro sieve allows really small particles to go distal but approximately it's overloaded so now you get all this debris in there you place your stent you take your retrieval filter or catheter to take this filter out and all that

stuff that's sitting between the overloaded filter and your stent then gets liberated and goes up to the brain so you got to worry about that as well I mentioned this scenario that it builds up so much so that you can't get all the

debris out and ultimately you lose some and then when the filter is full and debris particles that are suspended near the stent or if you put that filter too close to the edge of the stent you run into problems where it may catch the

stent overall and you have all of this debris and it looks small and you don't really see it and geographically obviously but ultimately is when you do a stroke assessment and it's not always devastating strokes but mild symptoms

where he had a stroke neurologist and the crest trial or most of the more recent clinical trials we actually evaluate a patient and notice that they had small maybe sub sub clinical or mild strokes that were noted they weren't

perhaps devastating strokes but they had things that caused some degree of disability so not insignificant here's a case example of a carotid stent that was done this is a case out of Arizona proximal carotid

stenosis stent placed but then distal thrombus that developed in this case and had post rhombus removal after the epd was removed so there's thrombus overloaded the the filter you can see the filter at the very top of the center

image you can see the sort of the shadow of the embolic protection device there distally aspirated that took the filter out and then ultimately removed but you can imagine that amount of thrombus up in the brain would have been a

devastating stroke and this is what the filter looks like in real life so this is what the debris may look like so it's not this is not overloaded but that's significant debris and you can see the little film or sieve that's on the

distal part of this basket and that's what captures the debris any of that in the brain is gonna leave this patient with a residual stroke despite a successful stenting procedure so this is what we're trying to avoid so in spite

these are our prospective CDT trials it's a lot to go through them so I'm not going to suffice it to say that the only one of these that is randomized is the

one in the top left the ultimate trial with 59 patients the rest of these are single set are single arm studies the optimized trial was randomized but the key arm it did not have was a control arm so all it did was vary the amount of

drug but there was no control arm to tell us how are people doing if they just get heparin well and I'll show you one result from these trials that is the most important result and that is up from the ultimate trial at 24 hours CDT

catheter to thrombolysis reduces the RV to lv ratio to a greater extent than heparin alone what does that mean so you saw all those pictures with the big dilated right ventricles our surrogate measure for right ventricular

dysfunction is the ratio of the diameter the inner diameter of the right ventricle to the left ventricle what we found in this study was that that ratio got reduced to a greater extent at 24 hours in the CDT arm compared to heparin

alone that means that CDT seems to reduce our V dysfunction faster than heparin now importantly 30 days later the echos looked identical so really it's a question of time which is not surprising what we've noticed in

our practice is that patients feel better faster okay I'm gonna go through the rest of this because I'm out of time but I want to give you a little bit of a sense of where we're going because there's bleeding associated with CDT and

maybe I'll show you this that in the Seattle to trial there was an 11% major bleeding rate now this was a pretty conservative definition but there were some serious bleeds and there were no intracranial

hemorrhages in this study but we have realized that CDT is not risk-free it's not like we've all of a sudden gained all of the advantages of systemic thrombolytics and none of the disadvantages now the rate of

intracranial hemorrhage seems to be about tenfold less but it does happen about 0.2 to 0.4% of the time the rate of major bleeding seems to be about 5% which is about half the rate of major bleeding that we see with system or

thrombosis so bleeding is still there it just doesn't seem to be as frequent so that's where some of these other devices are coming in then our a float Reaver the the the extra penumbra indigo cat 8 device and so the the float Reaver is

has actually gone through the full trial and the results are about to be published what is this thing well it's this pretty big hose which is about 20 French and it goes through the right heart and goes up there and it takes

this clot and literally aspirates it out and these are some of the things that will come out and that's sort of your post picture right there the data showed something similar to what we saw with the catheter directed thrombolysis

trials they had looked at 106 patients are vlv ratio was reduced again there's no comparator arm here so this is just the device on its own with a 3.8 percent adverse event rate and so now we're talking about mechanical devices that

don't use a clot-busting medication therefore you're gonna you can expect less bleeding but you're trading some of that off for a mechanical device that can cause injury to either myocardial structures or to the pulmonary artery so

that's something we have to be highly cognizant of as they're introduced into the market this is the penumbra cat 8 this is from Jim Benenati publication basically showing a couple things that's the separator that is the actual

catheter and that's the sheath back there so you've got poor profusion because of a clot in the inter lobar pulmonary artery and then at the end of it you have better perfusion for lung down there so we actually just completed

enrollment into the extract PE trial 120 sub massive PE patients the same efficacy endpoint you have to remember that has been established by the FDA as a way to get approval this is not the final

study nor should it be the final study when we evaluate these devices so to summarize sub massive PE what does the data not tell us CDT probably reduces the RV to LV ratio at 24 hours that is the main outcome that I want you

guys to remember from the ultimate trial it's associated you didn't see this data so don't worry about that we do see major bleeding and sometimes rarely but sometimes we see intracranial bleeding with CDT as well so what we're missing

from catheter directed thrombosis for sub massive PE is what are the clinical outcomes the RV to LV ratio is a surrogate outcome what about death what about clinical deterioration what about recurrent hospitalization what

about recurrent VTE how are people doing in the long term are they walking as well as they were before we don't know any of this none of the data right so far can tell us any of this information so where do we go from here for sub

MRA safety is one of our top priorities in our unit we have set up MRI zones zone one being the patient waiting area

zone two is where they change and they get screened zone three is where our control room is and anyone who passes by zone three has to get screened our pet MRI injection room is actually inside zone three and zone four is an MRI

scanner itself we assess risk in our patients for their implants we were iterate to them the importance of bringing their implant card with them just so it's easier for us to assess the compatibility of their their implants

with MRI right now we have the capability of scanning cardiac pacemakers and defibrillators it just needs more coordination with our in-house cardiology service and the implant representative rest assure

expanders and aneurysm clips are so contraindicated inside the skin we tell our patients to remove some items that they are able to remove such as dentures hearing aids piercings and prosthetics if they have it as for radiation safety

we observed the concept of Alera or as low as reasonably achievable you know before we inject the patient with the isotope we keep them comfortable we give them blankets we give them the pillows and we tell them

after they get injected that they are radioactive so we try to limit our exposure to them after they get the injection now we try to keep our distance from them and we have shielding lead shielding within the pet MRI area

now we have lead shield syringes available for the nurses use and we have dedicated a hot hot bath room a hot room and radio pharmacy we Ritter we give these puppies this injection card to the patient after they get the scan and we

were either a to them the importance of this card we have the stories from our patients where after the after they scan gone home and they passed through the tunnels or the bridges that they actually have been pulled over by the

police because the police have very sensitive radioactive detectors there was one patient who may have forgotten his card may have lost his card and he got pulled over and the police had to call our institution to confirm that he

really did have an isotope injected we

know we're running a bit short on time so I want to briefly just touch about

some techniques with comb beam CT which are very helpful to us there are a lot of reasons why you should use comb beam CT it gives us the the most extensive anatomic understanding of vascular territories and the implications for

that with oncology are extremely valuable because of things like margin like we discussed here's an example of a patient who had a high AF P and their bloodstream which tells us that they have a cancer in her liver we can't see

it on the CT there but if you do a cone beam CT it stands up quite nicely why because you're giving levels of contrast that if you were to give them through a peripheral IV it would be toxic to the patient but when you're infusing into a

segment the body tolerates at the problem so patient preparation anxa lysis is key you have them exhale above three seconds prior to that there's a lot of change to how we're doing this people who are introducing radial access

power injection anywhere from about 50 to even sometimes thirty to a hundred percent contrast depends on what phase you're imaging we have a Animoto power injector that allows us to slide what contrast concentration we like a lot of

times people just rely on 30% and do their whole the case with that some people do a hundred percent image quality this is what it looks like when someone's breathing this is very difficult to tell if there's complete

lesion enhancement so if you do your comb beam CT know it looks like this this is trying to coach the patient and try to get them to hold still and then this is the patient after coaching which looks like this so you can tell that you

have a missing portion of the lesion and you have to treat into another segment what about when you're doing an angio and you do a cone beam CT NIT looks like this this is what insufficient counts looks like on comb beam so when you see

these sort of Shell station lines that are going all over the screen you have to raise dose usually in larger patients but this is you know you either slow down the acquisition speed of your comb beam or

you raise dose this is what it looks like after we gave it a higher dose protocol it really changes everything those lines are still there but they're much smaller how do you know if you have enhancement or a narrow artifact you can

repeat with non-contrast CT and give the patient glucagon and you can find the small very these small arteries that pick off the left that commonly profuse the stomach the right gastric artery you can use your comb beam CT to find

non-target evaluation even when your angio doesn't suggest it so this is a patient they have recurrent HCC we didn't angio from here those arteries down there where those coils were looked funny even though the patient was

quote-unquote coiled off we did a comb beam CT and that little squiggly C shape structures that duodenum that's contrast going in it this would be probably a lethal event for the patient or certainly would require surgery if you

treated that much with y9t reposition the catheter deeper towards the lesion and you can repeat your comb beam CT and see that you don't have an hands minh sometimes you have these little accessory left gastric artery this is

where we really need your help you know a lot of times everyone's focused and I think the more eyes the better for these kind of things but we're looking for these little tiny vessels that sometimes hop out of the liver and back into the

stomach or up into the esophagus there's a very very small right gastric artery in this picture here this patient post hepatectomy that rides along the inferior surface of the liver it's a little curly cube so and this is a small

esophageal branch so when you do comb beam TT this is what the stomach looks like when it enhances and this is what the esophagus looks like when it enhances you can do non contrast comb beam CTS to confirm ablation so you have

a lesion this is the comb beam CT for enhancement you treat with your embolic and this is a post to determine that you've had completely shin coverage and you can see how that correlates a response so the last thing we're going

of the simulation and mentis simulator that we purchased that our system and purchased it's used in conjunction with

the cardiologists and first second third year cardiac fellows interventional fellows who also have the opportunity to practice on this but what I really liked about this and what really surprised me is how real it

is for learners and for our texts that come in our technologists using this piece to move the C arm to move it left to move it right injecting contrast which is actually air but you know we want to say it's contrast I'm moving the

table understanding how to pan the table how to move the CRM there's a lot of different functions that they can use collimation magnification so this board this panel is pretty much what they're going to do on a daily basis so this is

extraordinary and the picture next to it shows us some 3d dimension three-dimensional pictures of the coronary arteries laid out in different projections so depending on how you move your C arm you'll be able to see the

different angles of your coronary arteries again this is live real-time simulation 3d dimensions so we don't have to actually inject the contrast to visualize our coronary arteries in our a Horta there's a function button that you

can push and it automatically displays the three dimensions so it makes it easier for us to identify those arteries without having to inject and show the different views so it's fascinating in more pictures that showing doctor Lee

came who came to Phoenix Banner University Phoenix to help demonstrate so this is our first week after we've introduced the mentis to our learners and had them play with some of the functions again following up with dr.

Lee's visit he's the one that questioned our staff our learners and reiterated what Michael and I have taught in the first week so basically just understanding and reiterating everything that we went through and having our

learners hear it again from the physician what does he want how does he expect his staff to participate in how do his how does he expect his so what are the expectations of our learners so he was really forward he

asked them great questions they answer them because we taught them but we also showed that he also was able to show them some techniques that they as physicians would like the learners to know right so um he is the clinical

expert obviously so it was really nice to see them interacting together and answering questions again just another photograph of one of our learners using the mentis and showing the actual x-ray view on the left and showing the 3d

dimension on the right these are this is our photograph so we took these pictures during our last week of our programs so this is our final wrap-up putting it all together so we basically took them to the lab we we borrowed one of the labs

we asked our operational leaders if we could borrow one of the labs they weren't using that day and we came in and we set it all up we wanted to make sure they knew how to open a tray how does that how to set the table how to

set the back table how to prep the table how to get their power injections their med rads or their assists put together so we really went from A to Z during this wrap up final simulation study so our learners gound and glove they put on

their PPE and we did have the mentis underneath the drape so they were able to drape as if it was a real patient and also manipulating those wires so we had our cardiology fellow interventional fellow first I think it was first year

in second year who came to assist they were gracious enough to come in and help us assist that piece while Michael and I could focus on the learners helping them navigate through that lab calling out for supplies calling out for wires

calling out for stents calling out for balloons so it was pretty realistic and I think I think our learners really enjoyed that this is just another view of our table being set up one of our learners

scrubbed in she was an RN and she was learning kind of moved the table again you don't really get to do that in real life but in simulation all is game so they got to play and here's an image of our cardiology fellow it's not playing

so what it shows is the simulation of the angio angiogram of the coronary arteries so while we inject the contrast you can see the arteries filling in that simulation unfortunately we can't seem to get it to play again more pictures of

me teaching them how to move the table and the position that they needed to be in so and so we also wanted to make it

much more controversial so you it was pretty clear that we have to rescue

massive PD patients from death but with these statistics what are we supposed to do with sub massive PE well are we supposed to prevent mortality it's gonna be hard to do if the mortality is only 2 to 3% because you're trying to really

improvements of a very low statistic are you trying to reduce the rate of hemodynamic deterioration that's a possibility what about long-term disability if you remove clot upfront

will these patients do better six months one year or two years down the road frankly we don't know the answer to any of this and the reason is that the pytho trial made things quite difficult for us to interpret the pytho trial was the

trial that was going to answer all uncertainty this was a trial where it took some massive PD patients in that high-risk intermediate category and randomized them to receive a bolus of tenecteplase which is similar to TPA but

is not the same versus anticoagulation alone what did it show well it showed there was no difference in death between tenecteplase and placebo so they actually gave a placebo drug so that no it was a double blinded

study now if you look at the next line though a lot more patients decompensated if they receive the placebo than that's not to place this is not a bad thing you know it's not it's not great when you have to intubate somebody or initiate

pressors so if you can avoid that outcome that's it that's a pretty good thing so maybe it is the right thing to give systemic thrombolysis in the setting of sub massive PE problem was this the bleeding you look down here

there was an eleven percent rate of major bleeding in the tenecteplase arm there was a two percent rate of intracranial hemorrhage so now we've got this therapeutic window that's hard to interpret so we seem to be improving

outcomes from an efficacy standpoint but then we're also increasing the rate of bleeding so basically what we've sort of coalesced around is that systemic thrombolysis has a questionable risk benefit profile because the rate of

bleeding and the rate of really serious bleeding is makes us nervous so is that an opportunity for catheter director thrombolysis and I'll call this the poster child for Catherine throwing license if this is how it worked every

time we might have a homerun so this is gentleman looked terrible well still in the sub massive category but breathing at 35 times a minute hypoxic had his main PA systolic pressure of 60

millimeters of mercury you look over here and there's this large clot in the right upper lobe go to the left side and then there's all this clot in the left lower lobe as well so what do we do we put in bilateral infusion catheters this

can be an E Coast catheter it can be a standard catheter these areyou nafeez catheters have side holes starting from here and ending it's hard to see but there's another radiopaque marker somewhere down there on this side there

and somewhere over there and between those markers you have multiple side holes and those are put up inside the clot so you're dripping TPA at a rate of about 0.5 to 1 milligram per hour and you're getting it directly into the

clock that's the theory and so after 20 to 24 hours of that you know you're given 20 to 24 milligram of TPA that's compared to 50 or a hundred that you get was sitting with systemic thrombolysis you get something

that looks like this where the pulmonary arteries look pristine the PA still the systolic pressures come down the patient feels great now the skeptic would look at this and say well if you just tried some heparin and you just infuse saline

would you have the same result and frankly if you were to conduct the experiment you might find something interesting or not interesting but we never have conducted that experiment but you know I'll tell you a little bit

about the ultimate trial if I have time I don't want to go to overtime though

individually into each one of these trials but I want to just point out to you how busy the last 5 years have been because it has really caused a

resurgence in our interest in both treating PE better and what the gaps are in our knowledge so I will point out in 2014 this was an inflection point for 10 years we didn't have a major trial actually more like 12 or 15 years we

hadn't had a major trial in in PE and pytho was a 1000 patient study that informed us about how systemic thrombolytics interact with sub massive P and I'll go through the data that same year

catheterized thrombolysis is everybody familiar with catheter at the thrombolysis for submasters before Pease that's totally off the grid okay good well this was the first time we had a randomized trial for catheter directly

thrombolysis with some with some massive PE only problem was it was 59 patients in Europe so and that's all we have as far as randomized trials for CDT this is my soapbox issue I'm sorry if you've heard me say this but that's that's my

big goal is to try to change that 2015 had some follow-on CDT trials 2017 this is when we started thinking about the long term effects of PE on patients both of these studies started to examine the issue where a year after the PE patients

are not normal if you did a for example this elope long term study almost 50% of patients had an abnormal cardio pulmonary function test one year later 2018 we started to experiment with the dosage that we're

administering during CDT that's the optimized trial and we saw the first trial completed for a mechanical device called the NRA flow trailer which I'll show you later in the talk as well so that was an exciting inflection point as

well the extract PE trial which uses the indigo cat 8 device to aspirate thrombus in pulmonary embolism we just completed enrollment this year the future is hopefully bright for generating more data the PERT consortium registry is up

and running and is hopefully going to help us aggregate data and make better decisions and then you have a couple more devices coming in and I'll tell you our efforts to try to really improve the knowledge base on what CDT for sub

massive P that's the P track trial that's the last bullet point there okay

of these issues filters are generally still use or were used up until a few years ago or five years ago almost exclusively and then between five years and a decade ago there was this new concept of proximal protection or flow

reversal that came about and so this is the scenario where you don't actually cross the lesion but you place a couple balloons one in the external carotid artery one in the common carotid artery and you stop any blood flow that's going

through the internal carotid artery overall so if there's no blood flowing up there then when you cross the lesion without any blood flow there's nothing nowhere for it to go the debris that that is and then you can angioplasty and

or stent and then ultimately place your stent and then get out and then aspirate all of that column of stagnant blood before you deflate the balloons and take your device out so step-by-step I'll walk through this a couple times because

it's a little confusing at least it was for me the first time I was doing this but common carotid artery clamping just like they do in surgery right I showed you the pictures of the surgical into our directa me they do the vessel loops

around the common carotid approximately the eca and the ICA and then actually of clamping each of those sites before they open up the vessel and then they in a sequential organized reproducible manner uncle Dee clamp or unclamp each of those

sites in the reverse order similar to this balloon this is an endovascular clamping if you will so you place this common carotid balloon that's that bottom circle there you inflate you you have that clamping that occurs right

so what happens then is that you've taken off the antegrade blood flow in that common carotid artery on that side you have retrograde blood flow that's coming through from the controller circulation and you have reverse blood

flow from the ECA the external carotid artery from the contralateral side that can retrograde fill the distal common carotid stump and go up the ica ultimately then you can suspend the antegrade blood flow up the common

carotid artery as I said and then you clamp or balloon occlude the external carotid artery so now if you include the external carotid artery that second circle now you have this dark red column of blood up the distal common carotid

artery all the way up the internal carotid artery up until you get the Circle of Willis Circle of Willis allows cross filling a blood on the contralateral side so the patient doesn't undergo stroke because they've

got an intact circulation and they're able to tolerate this for a period of time now you can generally do these with patients awake and assess their ability to tolerate this if they don't tolerate this because of incomplete circle or

incomplete circulation intracranial injury really well then you can you can actually condition the patient to tolerate this or do this fairly quickly because once the balloons are inflated you can move fairly quickly and be done

or do this in stepwise fashion if you do this in combination with two balloons up you have this cessation of blood flow in in the internal carotid artery you do your angioplasty or stenting and post angioplasty if need be and then you

aspirate your your sheath that whole stagnant column of blood you aspirate that with 320 CC syringes so all that blood that's in there and you can check out what you see in the filter but after that point you've taken all that blood

that was sitting there stagnant and then you deflate the balloons you deflate them in stepwise order so this is what happens you get your o 35 stiff wire up into the external carotid artery once it's in the external cart or you do not

want to engage with the lesion itself you take your diagnostic catheter up into the external carotid artery once you're up there you take your stiff wire right so an amp lats wire placed somewhere in the distal external carotid

artery once that's in there you get your sheath in place and then you get your moment devices a nine French device overall and it has to come up and place this with two markers the proximal or sorry that distal markers in the

proximal external carotid artery that's what this picture shows here the proximal markers in the common carotid artery so there's nothing that's touched that lesion so far in any of the images that I've shown and then that's the moma

device that's one of these particular devices that does proximal protection and and from there you inflate the balloon in the external carotid artery you do a little angiographic test to make sure that there's no branch

proximal branch vessels of the external carotid artery that are filling that balloon is inflated now in this picture once you've done that you can inflate the common carotid artery once you've done that now you can take an O on four

wire of your choice cross the lesion because there's no blood flow going so even if you liberated plaque or debris it's not going to go anywhere it's just gonna sit there stagnant and then with that cross do angioplasty this is what

it looks like in real life you have a balloon approximately you have a balloon distally contrast has been injected it's just sitting there stagnant because there's nowhere for it to go okay once the balloons are inflated you've

temporarily suspends this suspended any blood flow within this vasculature and then as long as you confirm that there's no blood flow then you go ahead and proceed with the intervention you can actually check pressures we do a lot of

pressure side sheath pressure measurements the first part of this is what the aortic pressure and common carotid artery pressures are from our sheath then we've inflated our balloons and the fact that there's even any

waveform is actually representative of the back pressure we're getting and there's actually no more antegrade flow in the common carotid artery once you've put this in position then you can stent this once the stent is in place and you

think you like everything you can post dilated and then once you've post dilated then you deflate your balloon right so you deflate your all this debris that's shown in this third picture is sitting there stagnant

you deflate the external carotid artery balloon first and then your common carotid artery and prior to deflating either the balloons you've aspirated the blood flow 320 CC syringes as I said we filter the contents of the third syringe

to see if there's any debris if there's debris and that third filter and that third syringe that we actually continue to ask for eight more until we have a clean syringe but there's no filter debris out because

that might tell us that there's a lot of debris in this particular column of blood because we don't want to liberate any of that so when do you not want to use this well what if the disease that you're dealing with extends past the

common carotid past the internal carotid into the common carotid this device has to pass through that lesion before it gets into the external carotid artery so this isn't a good device for that or if that eca is occluded so you can't park

that kampf balloon that distal balloon to balloon sheath distally into the external carotid artery so that might not be good either if the patient can't tolerate it as I mentioned that's something that we assess for and you

want to have someone who's got some experience with this is a case that it takes a quite a bit of kind of movement and coordination with with the physician technologists or and co-operators that

so just a compliment what we everybody's talked about I think a great introduction for diagnosing PID the imaging techniques to evaluate it some of the Loney I want to talk about some of the above knee interventions no disclosures when it sort of jumped into

a little bit there's a 58 year old male who has a focal non-healing where the right heel now interestingly we when he was referred to me he was referred to for me for a woman that they kept emphasizing at the anterior end going

down the medial aspect of the heel so when I literally looked at that that was really a venous stasis wound so he has a mixed wound and everybody was jumping on that wound but his hour till wound was this this right heel rudra category-five

his risk factors again we talked about diabetes being a large one that in tandem with smoking I think are the biggest risk factors that I see most patient patients with wounds having just as we talked about earlier we I started

with a non-invasive you can see on the left side this is the abnormal side the I'm sorry the right leg is the abnormal the left leg is the normal side so you can see the triphasic waveforms the multiphasic waveforms on the left the

monophasic waveforms immediately at the right I don't typically do a lot of cross-sectional imaging I think a lot of information can be obtained just from the non-invasive just from this the first thing going through my head is he

has some sort of inflow disease with it that's iliac or common I'll typically follow within our child duplex to really localize the disease and carry out my treatment I think a quick comment on a little bit of clinicals so these

waveforms will correlate with your your Honourable pencil Doppler so one thing I always emphasize with our staff is when they do do those audible physical exams don't tell me whether there's simply a Doppler waveform or a Doppler pulse I

don't really care if there's not that means their leg would fall off what I care about is if monophasic was at least multiphasic that actually tells me a lot it tells me a lot afterwards if we gain back that multiphase the city but again

looking at this a couple of things I can tell he has disease high on the right says points we can either go PITA we can go antegrade with no contralateral in this case I'll be since he has hide he's used to the right go contralateral to

the left comment come on over so here's the angio I know NGOs are difficult Aaron when there's no background so just for reference I provided some of the anatomy so this is the right you know groin area

right femur so the right common from artery and SFA you have a downward down to the knee so here's the pop so if we look at this he has Multi multi multiple areas of disease I would say that patients that have above knee disease

that have wounds either have to level disease meaning you have iliac and fem-pop or they at least have to have to heal disease typically one level disease will really be clot against again another emphasis a lot of these patients

since they're not very mobile they're not very ambulatory this these patients often come with first a wound or rest pain so is this is a patient was that example anyway so what we see again is the multifocal occlusions asta knows

he's common femoral origin a common femoral artery sfa origin proximal segment we have a occlusion at the distal sfa so about right here past the air-duct iratus plus another occlusion at the mid pop to talk about just again

the tandem disease baloney he also has a posterior tibial occlusion we talked about the fact that angio some concept so even if I treat all of this above I have to go after that posterior tibial to get to that heel wound and complement

the perineal so ways to reach analyze you know the the biggest obstacle here is on to the the occlusions i want to mention some of the devices out there I'm not trying to get in detail but just to make it reader where you know there's

the baiance catheter from atronics essentially like a little metal drill it wobbles and tries to find the path of least resistance to get through the occlusion the cross or device from bard is a device that is essentially or what

I call is a frakking device they're examples they'll take a little peppermint they'll sort of tap away don't roll the hole peppermint so it's like a fracking device essentially it's a water jet

that's pulse hammering and then but but to be honest I think the most effective method is traditional wire work sorry about that there are multiple you know you're probably aware of just CTO wires multi weighted different gramm wires 12

gram 20 gram 30 gram wires I tend to start low and go high so I'll start with the 12 gram uses supporting micro catheter like a cxi micro catheter a trailblazer and a B cross so to look at here the sheath I've placed a sheet that

goes into the SFA I'm attacking the two occlusions first the what I used is the micro catheter about an 1/8 micro catheter when the supporting my catheters started with a trailblazer down into the crossing the first

occlusion here the first NGO just shows up confirmed that I'm still luminal right I want to state luminal once I've crossed that first I've now gone and attacked the second occlusion across that occlusion so once I've cross that

up confirm that I'm luminal and then the second question is what do you want to do with that there's gonna be a lot of discussions on whether you want Stan's direct me that can be hold hold on debate but I think a couple of things we

can agree we're crossing their courageous we're at the pop if we can minimize standing that region that be beneficial so for after ectomy couple of flavors there's the hawk device which

essentially has a little cutter asymmetrical cutter that allows you to actually shave that plaque and collect that plaque out there's also a horrible out there device that from CSI the dime back it's used to sort of really sort of

like a plaque modifier and softened down that plaque art so in this case I've used this the hawk device the hawk has a little bit of a of a bend in the proximal aspect of the catheter that lets you bias the the device to shape

the plaque so here what I've done you there you can see the the the the the teeth itself so you can tell we're lateral muta Liz or right or left is but it's very hard to see did some what's AP and posterior so usually

what I do is I hop left and right I turned the I about 45 degrees and now to hawk AP posterior I'm again just talking left to right so I can always see where the the the the AP ended so I can always tell without the the teeth

are angioplasty and then here once I'm done Joan nice caliber restored flow restored then we attacked the the common for most enosis and sfa stenosis again having that device be able to to an to direct

that device allows me to avoid sensing at the common femoral the the plaque is resolved from the common femoral I then turn it and then attack the the plaque on the lateral aspect again angioplasty restore flow into the common firm on the

proximal SFA so that was the there's the plaque that you can actually obtain from that Hawk so you're physically removing that that plaque so so that's you know that's the the restoration that flow just just you know I did attack the

posterior tibial I can cross that area I use the diamond back for that balloon did open it up second case is a woman

and you can see on this t1-weighted image that increased area of enhancement which is the area of synovial thickening you actually see this on MRI beforehand and there it is located over the lateral aspect of the knee on the axial image

and so what we're doing sorry in the medial aspect of the knee so what we're doing here on the angiogram is and you solve these leg angiograms where everyone doesn't really care about these Janicki lit arteries they're really

important when you have sfa or popliteal occlusive disease because they serve as a collateral source but otherwise and people have arthritis they can be a real pain and pain in the knee if you will so this is a this is the superior medial

genicular artery it always drapes over the femoral condyle and you'll see here on this image you don't really see very much once we get into the vessel look at this it almost looks like a small about a cellular carcinoma like when you're in

the liver you get this tumor type blush vascularity that's what we're looking for that corresponds to the patient's area of pain and then after embolization this is what it looks like takes a very small amount

of embolic we're using maybe 0.4 2.6 sometimes 1 CC at most of dilute embolic that we're injecting this is another case again before and after if you look here on the right and then on the left you don't really see much until you

select the vessel out once you get into that super medial vessel you can see how much enhancement there is so in our clinical study of 20 patients this is what we did you'll see on the bottom here we used embassy and 75 micron in 9

patients and 1111 patients got a 100 micron and I'll explain why we upsized our particles so initially we wanted to go very small because that's what dr. o Cano had done in Japan but then we wanted to actually up size our particles

and I'll explain this here in our complications so like all clinical studies the purpose of doing really good clinical research is because this is early and we don't know if they're going to be complications and it's always fun

when you're the first one to figure it out and you tell patients I don't really know what's gonna happen and this is what happens so 13 patients had this kind of skin discoloration over their knee now we knew this because we've been

doing knee embolization for about 10 years in bleeding patients not necessarily arthritic patients so we had seen this before but none of these patients in this clinical study went on to have any alteration of the skin and

it resolved in all patients there was some minor side effects from basically medications and one small groin hematoma but there were two patients who developed plantar numbness over their great toe so under their great toe

basically in the medial distribution of their tibial nerve they ended up getting plantar numbness and this is believed at least in our experience to probably be related to non-target embolization to the tibial nerve the tibial nerve

probably gets its blood supply from many of these generic arteries so we decided

to talk about is indirect angiography this is kind of a neat trick to suggest to your intervention list as a problem solver we were asked to ablate this lesion and it looked kind of funny this patient had a resection for HCC they

thought this was a recurrence so we bring the comb beam CT and we do an angio and it doesn't enhance so this is an image here of indirect port ography so what you can do is an SMA run and see at which point along the

run do you pacify the portal vein and you just set up your cone beam CT for that time so you just repeat your injection and now your pacifying the entire portal vein even though you haven't selected it and what to show

well this was a portal aneurysm after resection with a little bit of clot in it the patient went on some aspirin and it resolved in three months so back to our first patient what do you do for someone who has HCC that's invading the

heart this patient underwent 2y 90s bland embolization microwave ablation chemotherapy and SBRT and he's an eight-year survivor so it's one of those things where certainly with the correct patient selection you can find the right

things to do for someone I think that usually our best results come from our interdisciplinary consensus in terms of trying to use the unique advantages that individual therapies have and IO is just one of those but this is an important

lesson to our whole group that you know a lot of times you get your best results when you use things like a team approach so in summary there are applications to IO prior to surgery to make people surgical candidates there are definitive

treatments ie your cancer will be treated definitively with curative intent a lot of times we can save when people have tried cure intent and weren't able to and obviously to palliate folks to try to buy them time

and quality of life thermal ablation is safe and effective for small lesions but it's limited by the adjacent anatomy y9t is not an ischemic therapy it's an ablative therapy you're putting small ablative radioactive particles within

the lesion and just using the blood supply as a conduit for your brachytherapy and you can use this as a new admin application to make people safer surgical candidates when you apply to the entire ride a panic globe

thanks everyone appreciate it [Applause] [Music]

massive PE well let's remember this at this point including all the trials that preceded the pytho trial almost 1 700 patients have been randomized into systemic lytic trials for some massive p yep all we have on the CDT side is the

ultimate trial of 59 patients non-us single was a single trial that's where this initiative is coming from to improve the data this trial called P track and I have preliminary information that we just made our first breakthrough

in fronting from the NIH so very excited that we have a planning grant to potentially get this thing moving so P tract is basically designed to be a randomized control trial of catheter directed therapy versus no catheter

directed therapy for sub massive PE to really try to answer this question just like the pytho trial tried to do for systemic thrombolysis in the setting of catheter Ida thrombolysis and this time we're not just using surrogate endpoints

we're not you the rvw ratio is probably not even gonna be calculated but what we want to know are these are patients doing better in one arm or the other and we're going to use outcomes that are important to both patients and providers

400 to 500 patients most likely looking at sites all across the so but we are still in this time when

gets pet MRIs right now our main focus are our oncology patients it helps us

determine the type of cancer they have the diagnosis of cancer assess disease progression treatment therapy and treatment planning and some antecessor treatment response so let's say a lesion is FDG avid and

has low blood perfusion that would help our physicians to us to say what kind of treatment they can give to the patient pet MRI is also good for patients who can tolerate longer scans right now it's a very young modality

there's still a lot of research goes on with this and coupled with that is advantage of research right now we actually in the Memorial sloan-kettering we have started using this instead of FDG we've used gallium 68 of to assess

neuroendocrine tumors who have also done cervical lymph Austin Tiger phim where FDG is injected directly at the patient's cervical cavity and that helps map out the lymph nodes in the survey in the pelvic area this can be used by the

surgeon and see what lymph nodes can be sampled during the surgery we provide some education and assessment before during and after the pet MRI we assess for the patient's allergies we tell the patient's they have to be NPO at least

six hours prior to FDG injection as for our anxious patients they often come pre-medicated and this just comes with some care coordination with their physician the physician would prescribe some low-dose anti-anxiety medications

and the patient would take it an hour before their test as for our claustrophobic patients we what we have done is we let them see the Machine we let we let them feel the Machine we put them inside if they would want to and it

would be up to them if they would be tolerating the scan we assess for their diabetes regimen and my refe will speak more about that later we assess for patients pregnancy status on patients loving to fifty years old process for

their breastfeeding status and screen their implants during the pet MRI we tell them about the coil placement we give them an emergency call bell and we tell them to decrease their movement well being is like although our some of

our patients would say I didn't move but then the image so differently there there's a possibility that the magnet can induce some involuntary twitching after the MRI we tell them that they can resume their

diet they can resume their diabetic diabetes regimen and as if they get MRI contrast they can pump and dump for about 24 hours after the test but if they don't get a contrast they can keep their breast milk inside the fridge just

to help to decay just to decay the isotope that was given to the patient it doesn't give any harm to the baby

workflow for pet MRI upon arrival the patient have to fill out questionnaires the MRI screening for contrast and allergy assessment pet screening form

the RT will review MRI screening for after he checked that the patients at MRI safe and no presence of a Mia Ferris fragments or anything he would give the paper to the RN the patient then will be escorted through the change room and

asked to put on robe and non slip shots this is these are the responsibilities of the nurse in our clinical workflow for pet MRI RN to review pet screening form and contrast questionnaire if patient have to receive gadolinium check

kidney function EGFR below 15 you notify the radiologist except for a of s below 30 you notify the radiologist check for allergies if allergic make sure patients is properly pre-medicated

check for Medicaid presence of medication patches and implanted infusion pumps now also you have to check for patient's blood glucose monitoring I have one but I would but I don't go inside the scanner so I'm safe

check for pregnancy status with pediatric patients we have a special process to follow the iron then obtains blood glucose and record if blood glucose is 70 to 199 we proceed with the scan anything above 200 we follow the

glycemic management with PET imaging flow chart and here's how our PET imaging flow chart looks like it looks complicated by its color coded it's three pages but I would like to show you some key points like the administration

of insulin is also based on the level of BMI you see on the arrow says BMI below 25 and there's another flow chart is if it's above 25 after that the patient will be brought back to the pet designated injection room

remember our pet MRI is located in zone three of the MRI area so prior to that the RT would the screen the patient again the patient would pass through the wall-mounted metal detector and nobody could go into song free without escorted

by the IRT or a nurse you have to swipe your ID to open the door mission when the patients in the hot room are in would obtain the height in centimeters and weight in kilos after that the RN now could do IV access once

secured you call the range of pharmacists that you're ready to inject so we wait until and the FDG dose would come up through the pneumatic children this is how our hot lab looks like the pneumatic tube to your left above is the

shower and we have the hoop to prepare for the dose or check for the dose and the wash station and once the those arrives the nurse injecting and the RT is scanning or the RT assisting just always two artists in one machine in our

MRI Department we have four magnets and only one is for MRI PET MRI it's always two artists in each machine so one RT is assisting you and with the patient so once the FDG arrives we do a patient identification using two patient

identifiers we check the label and the dose if it's correct the FDG then will be injected to the patient once injected we tell the patient they have to wait for 40 minutes during this time we instruct them to stay still not stay

still but limit movement and stimulation and inform them that we have a camera inside that room and the nurses in a and the nurses could monitor them in the nurse's station one RT will set up the scanner and computer

and patient will be screen and wondered prior to so on for so you get wandered twice check for ferrous presence patient then will be positioned on the scanner table by the pet mr technologies it takes 15

to 20 minutes for setup you have seen how the patient is position the whole body is covered by the coils and head is covered by another coil as anybody among he works in the institution who requires time out prior to injection raise your

hand please at ms KCC we do this is done by the injecting nurse and the RT is scanning the RT is reading information directly from the monitor not anywhere in the monitor while the nurse is comparing and listening into the using

the documents on hand this is done to ensure the five rights the right patient the right scan the right area your scanning the right contrast those and rate and method of administration as you all know is either given IV push or by

the dynamic or the injector timeout will be done if patient will be receiving gadolinium once the scan is finished IV access will be removed our artists are trying to remove and inject also so they are capable of removing the IV the

radiation card will be handed to the patient and paste after that patient would be assisted to the change room and discharge there is good thing when you change the patient into the robe and the non-skid

sucks because just in case there's a spill you're not sending that patient into the paper outfit they're not gonna be happy at all now I'm gonna bring you

strategies so some things that we have

in place right now our peer review Grand Rounds CPOE this is one of my one of my favorite process improvements is is making the right thing the easiest thing and you do that through standardization of processes so that's standard work so

that's your order sets that's the things pop-ups although you don't want to get into pop-up fatigue but pop-ups help our providers for little gentle reminders to guide them to what's right for the patient and to cover everything that we

need we need to cover to ensure the safety of our patient so recently in the fall of last year we had a TPA administration err that occurred it involved a 69 year old patient who two weeks prior had had some stenting in her

right SFA she presented to our clinic when our clinics with some heaviness in her leg and some pain and when she was looked at from an ultrasound standpoint it was determined that her stents were from Bost so she was immediately taken

to the cath lab and it was after angiography did indeed show that there was clot inside these stents they did start catheter directed thrombolysis in the cath lab they also did started concurrent heparin often oftentimes done

with CDT what's usual for our institution is that we have templates that pull in the active problem list for a patient in this case the active problem list or a templated HMP was not used had they

used the template at agent p they would have found that the second active problem on this patients list was a cerebral aneurysm so some physicians will tell you some ir docs will tell you that's an absolute

contra contraindication for TPA however the SI r actually lists it as a relative contraindication so usually we're used to when you when you start a final Isis case you know you're gonna be coming in every 24 hours to check in

that patient in this case we started the the CDT on a Thursday the intent was to bring her back on Monday the heparin many ir nurses will know that we will run it at a low rate usually 500 units an hour and we keep the patient sub-sub

therapeutic on their PTT although current literature will show you that concurrent heparin can also be nurse managed keeping the patient therapeutic in their PTT which is what was done in this case so what ended up the the

course progression of this patient was that so remember we started on Thursday on Saturday she regained her distal pulses in her right leg no imaging Sunday she lost her DP pulse it was thought that it was part of a piece of

that clot that was in the the stent had embolized distally so they made the decision with the performing physicians they consulted him to increase the TPA that was at one milligram an hour to 2 milligrams by Sunday afternoon the

patient had an altered mental status she went to the CT scan which showed a large cerebral hemorrhage they ain't we intubated to protect her airway and by Monday we were compassionately excavating her because

she me became bred brain-dead so in the law there's something that's called the but for argument so the argument can be made that this patient would not have died but for the TPA that we gave her in a condition that she should not have had

TPA for namely that aneurysm so this shows how standard work can be very important in our care of our patients and how standard work drives us down the right way making the easiest thing the safest thing so since that time

we've had a process improvement group that we've established an order set specifically for use and thrombolysis from a peripheral standpoint and then also put together a guideline that was not in place so it's some of that Swiss

cheese that just kind of we didn't have a care set we didn't have a guideline you know we didn't use our template so all those holes lined up and we ended up with a very serious patient safety event so global human air reduction strategies

oops sorry let's go back these are listed in a weaker two stronger and some of what we're using in that case is some checklists so we developed a checklist that needs to be done to cover the

absolute contraindications as well as the relative and it's embedded in the Ulta place order that the physician has to review that checklist for those contraindications and also there to receive a phone call from pharmacy

just to double-check and make sure that they have indeed done that that it's not somebody just checking it off so we have a verbal backup sorry so the just

I'm the FDG is have a radio pharmacy located on the second floor no New York State does allow nuclear medicine

technologist and nurses to inject the con the FDG isotope I know in other states one in particular is is New Jersey the the nurses are not allowed to inject isotope and the technologist has to do it also in addition certain

isotopes and certain scans the ducts have to inject the contrast like the the cervical Lin scintigraphy and some so my question has to do with discharge instructions so just like you give them that little card that they keep with

them so they trigger some radiation alarm and a bridge or on a highway do you give them discharge instructions about if there's small children at home that they're not sitting in their lap for extended period what kind of

instructions do you give on discharge after these patients so we when they come in coupled with the screening forms that they fill out we have some instructions attached to it and does that does have

the discharge instructions but we reiterate to them you know if they have small children or babies and pregnant women and just try to keep their distance for the next 12 to 24 hours just to until the really activity has

wear off so the FDG is like two hours almost for the half life FDA FDA has 60 minutes 116 minutes half life and usually by 12 hour by the 12 hour period they're mostly background radiation okay thank you

we had they have a written instruction like it's like a packet that we give into the market that we do to the patient and the patient have accessed to the web portal that they have and they can be the instructions from there

this is correct so betta bar is still investigational for the most part the only way you can build for it is two different scans you build for a pet and you build for our mr so you've got to get approval for both what you are not

going to get reimbursed for is the registration and that's where it gets a little bit challenging because then you need a radiologist who is both certified uncredentialed to read a pet and an mr so right now most institution bill it as

two different procedures so that's why you that's how we get the approvals just a little information on the side I went back to this case study because I forgot to tell you that in order for the PET CT to have as clear image as the pet MRI

the pet portion I mean the city portion and the pet city would have to be done diagnostically and that this would expose the patient to radiation three times that's why they prefer the pet MRI because yeah the reason why we do it if

we do it mostly for for for pediatrics and it's it and it's because of radiation because you know like our my team is saying you you are going to have this patient have constant follow-up so if you can reduce the amount of

radiation they have from a younger age as we all know it work in radiology DNA injuries occur when you're younger then more is more severe than than later our MRI the pet MRI injection they're all lined with lead and our MRI the pet

MRI room is actually lined with lead so we don't really have Needham let aprons we don't know we don't have wear aprons they are allowed to go to other appointments after they are pet MRI usually with the FDG most of the

radiation after the Tessa's finish is gone they're not more than what not more than radioactive than background radiation so they are are safe to be around people yes that's more for precautionary

measures yes no they go straight to the PACU so we our MRI table is detachable we have an area for where we keep our inpatient bay area we have a structured ready for them to go into right after the test and the

anesthesiologist and if they are Pediatrics the pediatric nurse is with them and they go straight to pack you do like probably like probably less than ten a week right now some weeks we are busy we do for how we do that much some

it varies like we'll do three or four but we are trying because the reimbursement that's one of the big issue our institution is actually eaten eating the cost for some of these to provide a patient with less radiation

especially or pediatric population we have one pet MRI machine for the whole institution three at the main campus we have two we have multiple and other regional sites so the yes

no less than 15 GFR except for the EU vist less than 30 then we notified the radiologists eeeh this is harder to so you this is the it's a linear contrast as opposed to the Catalan bettervest which is

macrocyclic so it's easier for the body to get rid of well there yes well they're only they're already getting dialysis so it's really not much of a harm yes we do patients on dialysis but we make sure the dialysis is done within

24 hours after receiving the contrast yes um sometimes you know you just have it to have it we don't require it for all the tests if you have it we have it we check if it's already in the chart we

acknowledge it you know we don't require for outpatient we don't require but in patients we do all right anything okay so Bernie pet/ct the scanning time for pet/ct is about 30 minutes to 45 minutes Patsy pet/ct is about 30 to 45 minutes

with the pet MRI sometimes they they order dedicated pet MRIs so that is a little longer you have to take note that we do a whole body scan whole body scans for even just for a regular MRI is at least an hour so we try to eliminate

just you know having them have to have to or point to different appointments and just one waiting room one waiting time so that cuts down the response for the patient themselves yes we do for adults it's 12 for the

whole body and then for the pet brain it's about 10 if I'm not mistaken and then plus or minus 10% and then the pediatric doses are cultured calculated base of their height and their weight and there are all protocol by a

radiologist because we have a lot of whole-body protocols we have the bone survey actually that's about 30 or 40 minutes and yes that's an hour and then we have longer whole body protocols diseases

specific and sometimes they try to depends on what the patient's diagnosis is we have whole body scans where they have to check the bone marrow and that needs to be from tips of the toes and tips of the fingers and that can be a

challenge especially if the patient is tall because that has to be in sequest sequestered and sequential patient and positioning is also a challenge alright thank you so much thank you thank you so much

[Applause]

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