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Hepatocellular Carcinoma, Arterial Injury|TACE (Conventional) (Repeat)|51|Male
Hepatocellular Carcinoma, Arterial Injury|TACE (Conventional) (Repeat)|51|Male
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Indirect Angiography | Interventional Oncology
Indirect Angiography | Interventional Oncology
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Treatment Options- Carotid Artery Stenting (CAS) | Carotid Interventions: CAE, CAS, & TCAR
Treatment Options- Carotid Artery Stenting (CAS) | Carotid Interventions: CAE, CAS, & TCAR
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Diagnostic Criteria for CTEPH | Management of Patients with Acute & Chronic PE
Diagnostic Criteria for CTEPH | Management of Patients with Acute & Chronic PE
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Pulmonary Ablation | Interventional Oncology
Pulmonary Ablation | Interventional Oncology
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Bland Embolization | Interventional Oncology
Bland Embolization | Interventional Oncology
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Aspiration Thrombectomy | Management of Patients with Acute & Chronic PE
Aspiration Thrombectomy | Management of Patients with Acute & Chronic PE
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Ablative Radioembolization | Interventional Oncology
Ablative Radioembolization | Interventional Oncology
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Treatment Options- CAS- Embolic Protection Device (EPD)- Distal Protection | Carotid Interventions: CAE, CAS, & TCAR
Treatment Options- CAS- Embolic Protection Device (EPD)- Distal Protection | Carotid Interventions: CAE, CAS, & TCAR
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Treatment Options- Carotid Endarterectomy (CEA) | Carotid Interventions: CAE, CAS, & TCAR
Treatment Options- Carotid Endarterectomy (CEA) | Carotid Interventions: CAE, CAS, & TCAR
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Lymphatic Imaging Challenges | Lymphatic Imaging & Interventions
Lymphatic Imaging Challenges | Lymphatic Imaging & Interventions
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Education Strategies to Reduce Human Errors | Looking for risk in all the Right Places: The Anatomy of Errors in Healthcare
Education Strategies to Reduce Human Errors | Looking for risk in all the Right Places: The Anatomy of Errors in Healthcare
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Chylous Ascites | Lymphatic Imaging & Interventions
Chylous Ascites | Lymphatic Imaging & Interventions
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CTEPH Studies | Management of Patients with Acute & Chronic PE
CTEPH Studies | Management of Patients with Acute & Chronic PE
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Balloon Pulmonary Angioplasty | Management of Patients with Acute & Chronic PE
Balloon Pulmonary Angioplasty | Management of Patients with Acute & Chronic PE
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The Path Forward | Uterine Artery Embolization The Good, The Bad, The Ugly
The Path Forward | Uterine Artery Embolization The Good, The Bad, The Ugly
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Why Do We Need Different Directions For Occlusions? | AVIR CLI Panel
Why Do We Need Different Directions For Occlusions? | AVIR CLI Panel
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The Ways to Recanalize the Below the Knee Vessels | AVIR CLI Panel
The Ways to Recanalize the Below the Knee Vessels | AVIR CLI Panel
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Q&A Uterine Fibroid Embolization | Uterine Artery Embolization The Good, The Bad, The Ugly
Q&A Uterine Fibroid Embolization | Uterine Artery Embolization The Good, The Bad, The Ugly
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Case 1 - Non-healing heel wound, Rutherford Cat. 5, previous stroke | Recanalization, Atherectomy | Complex Above Knee Cases with Re-entry Devices and Techniques
Case 1 - Non-healing heel wound, Rutherford Cat. 5, previous stroke | Recanalization, Atherectomy | Complex Above Knee Cases with Re-entry Devices and Techniques
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CT Imaging- Acute PE | Management of Patients with Acute & Chronic PE
CT Imaging- Acute PE | Management of Patients with Acute & Chronic PE
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Cone Beam CT | Interventional Oncology
Cone Beam CT | Interventional Oncology
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Radioembolization | Interventional Oncology
Radioembolization | Interventional Oncology
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CTEPH Case Example | Management of Patients with Acute & Chronic PE
CTEPH Case Example | Management of Patients with Acute & Chronic PE
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Ideal Uterine Fibroid Embolization Candidates | Uterine Artery Embolization The Good, The Bad, The Ugly
Ideal Uterine Fibroid Embolization Candidates | Uterine Artery Embolization The Good, The Bad, The Ugly
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What's Next | AVIR CLI Panel
What's Next | AVIR CLI Panel
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Q&A- Procedural Sedation | Procedural Sedation: An Education Review
Q&A- Procedural Sedation | Procedural Sedation: An Education Review
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Ideal Stent Placement | TIPS & DIPS: State of the Art
Ideal Stent Placement | TIPS & DIPS: State of the Art
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Treatment Options- TransCarotid Artery Revascularization- TCAR | Carotid Interventions: CAE, CAS, & TCAR
Treatment Options- TransCarotid Artery Revascularization- TCAR | Carotid Interventions: CAE, CAS, & TCAR
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Endovascular AVF creation | Twitter Case Files SIR 2019
Endovascular AVF creation | Twitter Case Files SIR 2019
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Protein Losing Enteropathy | Lymphatic Imaging & Interventions
Protein Losing Enteropathy | Lymphatic Imaging & Interventions
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Transcript

This is a 51 year old man with HCV cirrhosis and a right hepatic lobe HCC which is recurrent after RFA 10 months prior. This is the arterial phase from his CT scan. You can see recurrent enhancing tumor around the ablation site, kinda nodular tumor on both lateral aspects of the abrasion site.

We've prescribed conventional TACE. We use triple therapeutic cocktail in this case and you can see the right hepatic angiogram showing multifocal disease, the patient underwent an uneventful therapy here. However given the multifocal disease he was brought back for multiple rounds of therapy. You can see this is a repeat TACE

five months later. Now we're starting to see some vessel abnormalities. Slight vessel attenuation in the right hepatic artery, again repeat TACE six months after that you can start to see multifocal vessel attenuation, vessel occlusion with an abrupt cutoff. And now one

month after that again lots of occlusions, lots of attenuation that completely obliterated right hepatic arterial system 13 months later. So this is a guy who has arterial injury or arterial occlusion related to TACE. This is not a complication per say but I think this is part of the natural history of multiple local-regional

therapies with embolic type treatments. The incidence spans anywhere from about 10 to 50%. You can get loss of vascular patency when TACE is performed to stasis or near stasis endpoint in a good percentage of cases. And I think most people take this to be related to caustic chemotherapy and embolics precipitating the hepatic injury. And obviously the

major consequence is loss of future access for local-regional therapy. It's been described for multiple chemotherapy drugs and embolic agents. And obviously what you're looking for here is attenuation, stenosis,

slow flow or occlusion in the vascular bed that you're treating. I don't think there's any real way to avoid this if you're gonna do multiple local-regional therapies, although you can consider embolizing to a substasis angiographic endpoint, use of temporary

embolic agents. And some practitioners will advocate bland particle embolization in this case, stating that there's a reduced rate of arterial occlusion, although I'm not necessarily certain that we know this for sure. From a management standpoint, I think this is a permanent event.

If one wants to pursue local-regional therapy you can consider looking for parasitized extra hepatic blood supply to HCC's in particular. However, I think at this point, systemic therapy is a pretty good option.

And this gentleman actually was prescribed sorafenib after his hepatic arterial loss. He underwent 7 total TACEs to both lobes and he expired more than 3 years after his first TACE, so he actually did pretty good for his tumor burden. Any questions or thoughts about this case?

>> [INAUDIBLE] >> We usually aim for complete tumor devascularization and maintenance of antegrade flow in the treated vascular bed. Given that he had so many TACEs I can't promise you that that was the case for every single procedure but that's our usual approach to these chemoembolizations. >> Has anybody got a question?

[INAUDIBLE] The question is, what's the threshold for switching modalities, if we start to see such changes after multiple TACEs. And the answer is it's probably operator preference again, I'll put that to the

to the group here. Would you guys switch modalities if you started to see arterial abnormalities in the treated vascular bed after some TACE procedures? >> I think some of it depends on your response. I'm not sure with this patient I wouldn't have gone right to Y90 you know multifocal

disease or bilobar disease or PVT is typically when I would go to a Y90 initially instead of TACE. If I could mention one thing about the temporary agent. In the past we used to use that in all patients, right, rather

than lipiodol, you kinda chase it with gel foam and I think, to be perfectly honest it didn't work. You see just as many cases like this with the temporary agent as you would. Because it's three weeks to three months generally in terms of

with gel foam particles when these things are gonna recanalize. So by then you're already persositizing it and frankly I just don't think work and it hurt very badly. >> Not to make this too complicated, we can all snicker but we started radioembolization obviously at North Western but for other reasons is because of this.

Some of these patients get many treatments over the course. You had seven TACE procedures here and we know in general with radioembolization, we can repeat the therapy. So we tend to do radial embolization if we decide that it's not working or there's early progression or we've reached radiation dose limits, then we do chemoembolization.

It's anecdotal that's the way we kinda run it now. In this particular patient you had seven time points. If you noticed that the vessels are starting to go away you know in the back of your mind that there may be a point that you're not gonna be able to do any more therapies. You could consider

going into something else such as radioembolization at that point but it's a little bit convoluted by the fact that there's evidence that doing repeated TACEs is better than doing TACE in one session and you wonder why did you do seven, is it not working. It didn't seem like you're doing

a lot of different segments, it was all re-occuring in the same spot so. >> I think it's a great point and I think it's one worth considering in a case like this. What I will say is we typically practice on demand therapy so this

gentleman actually having a response at each time point but then recurrence and repeat TACE. So I think to Bob's point, the therapy that we were applying was working although we were having kind of collateral damage

effects here. >> Who would have started with conventional TACE here? Who would have started with Y90? Who would have started with line/g embo/g? Cerefolin? Guess mostly Y90. You guys aren't answering much by the way.

to talk about is indirect angiography this is kind of a neat trick to suggest to your intervention list as a problem solver we were asked to ablate this lesion and it looked kind of funny this patient had a resection for HCC they

thought this was a recurrence so we bring the comb beam CT and we do an angio and it doesn't enhance so this is an image here of indirect port ography so what you can do is an SMA run and see at which point along the

run do you pacify the portal vein and you just set up your cone beam CT for that time so you just repeat your injection and now your pacifying the entire portal vein even though you haven't selected it and what to show

well this was a portal aneurysm after resection with a little bit of clot in it the patient went on some aspirin and it resolved in three months so back to our first patient what do you do for someone who has HCC that's invading the

heart this patient underwent 2y 90s bland embolization microwave ablation chemotherapy and SBRT and he's an eight-year survivor so it's one of those things where certainly with the correct patient selection you can find the right

things to do for someone I think that usually our best results come from our interdisciplinary consensus in terms of trying to use the unique advantages that individual therapies have and IO is just one of those but this is an important

lesson to our whole group that you know a lot of times you get your best results when you use things like a team approach so in summary there are applications to IO prior to surgery to make people surgical candidates there are definitive

treatments ie your cancer will be treated definitively with curative intent a lot of times we can save when people have tried cure intent and weren't able to and obviously to palliate folks to try to buy them time

and quality of life thermal ablation is safe and effective for small lesions but it's limited by the adjacent anatomy y9t is not an ischemic therapy it's an ablative therapy you're putting small ablative radioactive particles within

the lesion and just using the blood supply as a conduit for your brachytherapy and you can use this as a new admin application to make people safer surgical candidates when you apply to the entire ride a panic globe

thanks everyone appreciate it [Applause] [Music]

there a better option this is where a carotid artery stenting was developed over a couple decades ago and this is a

less invasive viable option for treating carotid artery stenosis it was generally started off as a trends ephemeral approach but I'll show you what the new approach is that many of us are involved in it involves the use of

in volunteer tection so it's one of the unique vascular territories where embolic protection is required if you're gonna get Medicare reimbursement for this you have to involvement and bollocky protection if you do without

you can do the procedure but you won't get it you won't get reimbursed and ultimately it's it was proven to show much better outcomes if you use involved protection because even doing the procedure and trying to place the stent

there is some small embolic degree that that that shuttles off and if it happens in the foot you may or may not lose a toe but if it happens in the brain you're gonna lose brain cells and it's gonna be potentially catastrophic so

significant adjunct to the stenting procedure is doing embolic protection and there's two types of embolic protection there's distal and there's proximal I'll walk through each of those with some diagrams here and then anyone

that gets a carotid stent has to be on dual antiplatelet therapy so if they have an allergy they're unable to be on aspirin and plavix they don't get a stent because there's early stent thrombosis that can't occur in these

patients if they don't have that dual antiplatelet therapy so let's go through

criteria for CTF means that the patient has a mean pulmonary arterial pressure which we measure intraoperatively exceeding 25 millimeters mercury at rest with the mean pulmonary capillary wedge pressure less than 15 so I'm not a

cardiologist but what that means to me is a mean capillary pulmonary wedge pressure less than 15 means that their left heart is not failing so if you have a capillary wedge pressure higher than 15 that means your left heart is not

working correctly and you can't blame it on the CTF so you can't blame it on the right side if the left side isn't working other things that matter are the abnormal pulmonary vascular resistance and having a systolic pulmonary artery

pressure greater than 40 so what I want to show you and highlight is the law the lost art of pulmonary angiography which i think is now sort of again a lost art some places do a lot of it and some places don't do very much but diagnostic

pulmonary angiography is actually the gold standard in the planning of either surgery or medical management for patients with CTF we do we do these on almost all of our patients with CTF to make that decision with the surgeons and

the cardiologists so the utility is very it's very useful you're able to measure our pressure you're able to decide whether we're the where the thrombus exists in this image here in patients with disease in the

blue and yellow outlined areas those are the patients who can have the operation the operation is curative it's not just medication that you have to take for the rest of your life you can actually remove that chronic clot it's much like

a femoral endarterectomy that are done for patients with peripheral arterial disease although it's a lot more complicated because they have to crack your chest open what's important is getting very very

good high-quality pulmonary angiogram xand so we do we used to do about we do about a hundred of these a year where I trained or actually where I work now and you get very magda up views and you're gonna show all of the vessels and so

these are the views that we use at our institution they happen to be the pipette criteria so it's the same thing you used to do for acute PE you put a flush catheter in the main pulmonary arteries when you're looking at the

upper lobes and when you're looking at the lower lobes you want to push the catheter further into the pulmonary arteries and inject usually what I do is a two to three second injection so that you can stack the images very well and

show all of them in one view this allows your surgeon to make a decision easily as to whether they can operate or they can't operate on this and then I use a higher frame rate usually because these patients are wide awake we when we do

this case we give our patients twenty five mics of fentanyl one time and that's it just to help get the sheath in I usually do this with a seven French sheath and then use a flush cap pulmonary artery catheter many of which

are currently off the market but when we do this we just give them that twenty five Mike's because they have to hold their breath and I usually go up to a high frame rate in the first run and then adjust based off of how well that

patient is holding their breath this really takes a team effort from our nursing technologists and the and the physicians in the room to make sure that this patient does a good job because it's gonna change their management so

there are a lot of different types of angiographic findings on one of these pulmonary angiogram they're really really interesting pulmonary angiogram zin these patients and they're sometimes not at all subtle so you're looking for

a pruning of distal vessels if we start in the top left where you're just not seeing the Brent normal branch pattern you look for stenosis so we're not usually used to looking at stenosis and the pulmonary arteries but this is

actually what you're looking for in CTF you're looking for webs or bands so you'll usually see little areas where you just doesn't look like there's great opacification there's little areas that there's not good at pacification those

are little webs inside the vessel believe it or not looks like a cobweb that grew inside there from that thrombus and then you're looking for areas of complete occlusion that there's just no vessels there those are all

vessels that can be treated in patients with CTF so this is the Jameson classification before we talk about the sort of the interventional management the surgical management is again the curative and dr. Jameson is the head

surgeon at University of California in San Diego which is the largest Palm CTF program in the in the world and he's done I think over 3 500 of these operations I think he's retired at this point but they named the classification

after him and so type 1 is proximal disease so it involves the main pulmonary arteries these are the ideal patients who can get the best benefit from this in their life type 2 is the next best

it's segmental proximal just type 3 is distal segmental and then type 4 is just a mess of sort of all of it but you can't really get a good surgical plane so type 1 and 2 are treated with pulmonary thromboembolism

towards balloon pulmonary angioplasty or BPA and type 4 are generally treated with medication so PT II or pulmonary

blasian it's well tolerated and folks with advanced pulmonary disease there's a prospective trial that showed that

there are pulmonary function does not really change after an ablation but the important part here is a lot of these folks who are not candidates for surgical resection have bad hearts a bad coronary disease and bad lungs to where

a lot of times that's actually their biggest risk not their small little lung cancer and you can see these two lines here the this is someone who dr. du Puy studied ablation and what happens if you recur and how your survival matches that

and turns out that if you recur and in if you don't actually a lot of times this file is very similar because these folks are such high risk for mortality outside or even their cancer so patient selection is really important for this

where do we use it primary metastatic lesions essentially once we feel that someone is not a good surgical candidate and they have maintained pulmonary function they have a reasonable chance for surviving a long

time we'll convert them to being an ablation candidate here's an example of a young woman who had a metastatic colorectal met that was treated with SPRT and it continued to grow and was avid so you can see the little nodule

and then the lower lobe and we paste the placement prone and we'd Vance a cryo plugs in this case of microwave probe into it and you turn off about three to five minutes and it's usually sufficient to burn it it cavitate s-- afterwards

which is expected but if you follow it over time the lesion looks like this and you say okay fine did it even work but if you do a PET scan you'll see that there's no actually activity in there and that's usually pretty definitive for

those small lesions like that about three centimeters is the most that will treat in a lot of the most attic patients but you can certainly go a little bit larger here's her follow-up actually two years

that had no recurrence so what do you do when you have something like this so this is encasing the entire left upper lobe this patient underwent radiation therapy had a low area of residual activity we followed it and it turns out

that ended up being positive on a biopsy for additional cancer so now we're playing cleanup which is that Salvage I mentioned earlier we actually fuse the PET scan with the on table procedural CT so we know which part of all that

consolidated lung to target we place our probes and this is what looks like afterwards it's a big hole this is what happens when you microwave a blade previously radiated tissue having said that this

was a young patient who had no other options and this is the only side of disease this is probably an okay complication for that patient to undergo so if you follow up with a PET scan three months later there's no residual

activity and that patient actually never recurred at that site so what about

we're gonna move on to embolization there a couple different categories of embolization bland embolization is when

you just administering something that is choking off the blood supply to the tumor and that's how it's going to exert its effect here's a patient with a very large metastatic renal cell lesion to the humerus this is it on MRI this is it

per angiogram and this patient was opposed to undergo resection so we bland embolized it to reduce bleeding and I chose this one here because we used sequentially sized particles ranging from 100 to 200 all

the way up to 700 and you can actually if you look closely can see sort of beads stacked up in the vessel but that's all that it's doing it's just reducing the blood supply basically creating a stroke within the tumor that

works a fair amount of time and actually an HCC some folks believe that it were very similar to keep embolization which is where at you're administering a chemo embolic agent that is either l'p hi doll with the chemo agent suspended within it

or drug eluting beads the the Chinese have done some randomized studies on whether or not you can also put alcohol in the pie at all and that's something we've adopted in our practice too so anything that essentially is a chemical

outside of a bland agent can be considered a key mobilization so here's a large segment eight HCC we've all been here before we'll be seeing common femoral angiogram a selective celiac run you can make sure

the portals open in that segment find the anterior division pedicle it's going to it select it and this is after drug living bead embolization so this is a nice immediate response at one month a little bit of gas that's expected to be

within there however this patient had a 70% necrosis so it wasn't actually complete cell death and the reason is it's very hard to get to the absolute periphery of the blood supply to the tumor it is able to rehab just like a

stroke can rehab from collateral blood supply so what happens when you have a lesion like this one it's kind of right next to the cod a little bit difficult to see I can't see with ultrasound or CT well you can go in and tag it with lip

Idol and it's much more conspicuous you can perform what we call dual therapy or combination therapy where you perform a microwave ablation you can see the gas leaving the tumor and this is what it looks like afterwards this patient went

to transplant and this was a complete pathologic necrosis so you do need the concept of something that's ablative very frequently to achieve that complete pathologic necrosis rates very hard to do that with ischemia or chemotherapy

alone so what do you do we have a

thrombectomy is another popular way of treating patients there's a lot of different aspiration catheters the SPX catheter is actually not available currently in the US but what it basically is I can have the rectum a

device that spins in such backlot the Indigo thrombectomy system from penumbra is a yet another device that sucks out clot I think many of us have used that it's kind of like a vacuum cleaner but usually more like a dust

hand vac where it's going to suck up thrombus the angio vac is much more like a Hoover where you're going to use and put a patient on veno-venous bypass that requires a 22 French sheath and a 17 French sheath but that will take out

thrombus I personally prefer using NGO vac in the IVC in big large thrombus for that and not in the pulmonary arteries because it's very inflexible but it's very very useful in a few patient populations in

all of these devices there is no TPA that needs to be given you're just sucking out the clot and you're actually removing it from the patient's body rather than dissolving it and sending it downstream the drawbacks on all of these

devices is their larger access points the SP or X is around six French although that's not that much bigger penumbra device is 8 French and the as we mentioned the angio vac is 22 French

them so my particular area of interest is a blade of radium ization and what we'd like to do is to break the liver

down into a bunch of little tiny perfused volumes off of a single vascular pedicle or what we call angio zones and those are those allow us to segment out if you only have small volume disease for example like here in

segment three why do I have to treat the entire left to paddock low I can actually treat just that small portion just like it what it tastes only now I'm administering y9t but since it's expendable liver I

can administer doses that are way higher orders of magnitudes higher than what I could if our infusing into the liver just on its own so here's an example of that if you look at this lesion in the right of panic lobe you'll see these

little lines over them what we want to achieve is around a 205 GRA threshold for these lesions that's the red line everything that's south of red in terms of color orange Holly to blue is not cold enough to kill tumor so if we

administer a dose of a tea grade to the lobe we get this coverage which is to be a partial response if I administer 150 grey suddenly that red line gets larger what happens when you administer 400 grey now you've officially covered the

entire lesion and so you're going to lose the adjacent liver at those kind of doses and as well - what what the real question then is not sort of how much dose you give it's you give what you need to to ablate the tumor in its

entirety and you see what the patient's left with if someone's left with anatomically a lot of remnant liver because of how you've segmented out that lesion then go ahead and dose extremely high and that's essentially what we've

seen in pathologic results it's one of the highest things of high school pathological crosa rates you can achieve with a trans arterial therapy it's highly competitive with thermal ablation in the correctly selected bleezin

so this is an example of what it looks like when you segment out a little lesion like this and this patient ultimately went to resection and this was a complete pathologic necrosis but as you can see even it was a cirrhotic

patient we chose a very small volume of liver that we felt the patient would tolerate so that's a blade of vernalization let's take a look at what looks like in real time so we have a little capsular lesion we felt that

ablating this patient who was a potential transplant candidate we felt we can probably with a blade of radium realization so you go in and this is the comb beam CT that looks at a complete enhancement of the lesion within the NGO

zone this is what the MAA looks like when we administer it you can see how it tends to cluster within the tumor but you can see what the adverse territory is the liver adjacent to it this is what the engine room looks like how highly

selective it is the day of and this is what the wine ID actually looks like is the wine 90 doing its job and you can see how conformal it is there's no risk whatsoever to the liver that's adjacent outside of that field of

a maximum of around 11 millimeters and this is a patient at one month with a complete imaging response and this patient never developed a recurrent to the site and what's actually sole mode of treatment for this person's liver

cancer this is how you get complete pathologic response if you look at those little tiny grey dots in there those are actually the spheres within tiny little vessels within the tumor sometimes they go even to the portal branch but you can

see how they're not clustered uniformly but when you make them super hot that allows them to give range where otherwise they would be fine a little bit short so this also applies to the whole lobe this was a patient that had a

very unusual presentation of colon cancer that was invading the portal II we weren't sure what to do with this patient no one was because a very rare occurrence so we said well we would like

to resect him but there's not enough liver and we're not sure if this person's gonna survive because we've never seen portal cancer invading the portal vein so we said let's treat it with the radiation lobectomy and what's

cool here is if you look at the the arteries even though the tumor is invading the portal vein it's bringing arterial supply along with it like a vagabond and that's the conduit that allows us to treat these patients so

when we saw that we felt this patient we good candidate for irradiation lobectomy which is applying an ablative dose of y9t to the entire low not just a small segment in patients where otherwise cannot because of the anatomy the tumor

or if you're trying to shrink that lobe to get that person ready for surgery why because if you look at the size of the lobe on the left from this first image and compare it here you can see how much larger it got what happens is that part

that the surgeon ultimately tens on resecting in volutes over time and becomes completely vitalized and turns into scar tissue so we know that if a surgeon goes in afterwards to cut it out it's going to not result in liver

failure and that level of security allows people to have sir who otherwise wouldn't this patient is not going to have metastatic disease because we followed their blood level markers let me see how low they are and

is going to have enough liver remnant so the patient went to resection and this is the pathologic specimen and this was also a complete pathologic necrosis so I

kind of the embolic protection because I think with carotid artery stenting the stents there's a lot of different types they're all self expanding for the most

part and there's not a lot to talk about there but there is with regards to embolic protection and there so there's distal and violent protection where you have this where that blue little sheath in the common carotid artery you got a

wire through the ica stenosis and a little basket or filter distally before you put the stent in early on they used to think oh maybe we'll do distal balloon occlusion put a balloon up distally do your intervention aspirate

whatever collects behind the balloon and then take the balloon down not so ideal because you never really asked for it a hundred percent of the debris and then whatever whenever you deflate the balloon it goes back it goes up to the

brain you still have some embolic phenomenon in the cerebral vascular churn and then there's this newer concept of proximal protection where you use either flow reversal reverse the blood flow in the cerebral circulation

or you actually cause a stagnant column of blood in the ica so you can't get you don't get anything that embolize is up distally but you have this stagnant column the debris collects there you aspirate that actively before you take

down the balloons that are in position in the X carotids and common carotid artery and then you take everything out so let's walk through each of these if you really wanted to pick out the perfect embolic

protection device it's got to be relatively easy to use it's got to be stable in position so it's not moving up and down and causing injury to the vessel but even while it's in place cerebral perfusion is maintained so that

balloon the distal balloon not a great idea because you're cutting off all the blood flow to the brain you might stop something from embolizing up distally but in the process of doing that you may patient may not tolerate that you want

complete protection during all aspects of the procedure so when we place a filter as you'll see just crossing the lesion with the initial filter can cause a distal embolus so that's a problem you want to be able to use your guide wire

choice as many of you know when we go through peripheral vasculature there's your go-to wires but it doesn't always work every time with that one go-to wire so you want to be able to pick the wire that you want to use or

change it up if needed for different lesions so if you get to use your wire of choice then then that's gonna be a better system than something that's man deter and then if you have a hard time using that wire to get across the lesion

you have a problem overall and then ultimately where do you land that protection device and a few diagrams here to help illustrate this generally speaking these distal embolic protection these filters that go beyond

the lesion have been used for quite a while and are relatively safe you can see them pretty easily and geographically they have little markers on them that signify if they're open or closed and we look for that overall and

blood flows through them it's just a little sieve a little basket that collects really tiny particles micrometers in size but allows blood flow to pass through it so you're not actually causing any cessation of blood

flow to the brain but you are protecting yourself from that embolic debris and it's generally well tolerated overall we had really good results in fact when not using this device there's a lot of strokes that were occurring in use of

this device dramatic reduction so a significant improvement in this procedural area by utilization of embolic protection however distal embolic protection or filter devices are not a perfect APD as you as you may know

those of you have been involved in carotid stenting there is no cerebral protection when you cross the lesion if you have a curlicue internal carotid artery this filter doesn't sit right and and ultimately may not cause

good protection or actually capture everything that breaks off the plaque and it can be difficult to deliver in those really tortuous internal carotid arteries so ultimately you can cross the lesion but you may not get this filter

up if you don't get the filter up you can't put the stent then ultimately you're out of luck so you gotta have a different option filters may not provide complete cerebral protection if they're not fully opposed and again it does

allow passage of really tiny particles right so your blood cells have to be able to pass but even though it's less than about a hundred microns may be significant enough to cause a significant stroke if it goes to the

right basket of territory so it's not perfect protection and then if you have so much debris you can actually overload the filter fill it up in tile and entirely and then you have a point where when you capture the filter there's some

residual debris that's never fully captured either so these are concerns and then ultimately with that filter in place you can cause a vessel dissection when you try to remove it or if it's bouncing up and down without good

stability you can cause spasm to the vessel as well and so these are the things that we look for frequently because we want to make sure that ultimately if we just sent the lesion but we don't believe the vessel distal

to it intact and we're going to have a problem so here's some kind of illustrated diagrams for this here's a sheath in the common carotid artery you see your plaque lesion in the internal carotid artery and you're trying to

cross this with that filter device that's what's the picture on the right but as you're crossing that lesion you're you're liberating a little plaque or debris which you see here and during that period of time until the filters in

place you're not protected so all that debris is going up to the brain so there's that first part of the procedure where you're not protected that's one of the pitfalls or concerns particularly with very stenotic lesions or friable

lesions like this where you're not protected until that filters in place that first step you never are protected in placement of a filter here's an example where you have a torturous internal carotid artery so you see this

real kink these are kinds of carotid internal carotid arteries that we can see and if you place that filter in that bend that you can see right at the bend there the bottom part the undersurface of the carotid doesn't have good wall

my position of the filter so debris can can slip past the filter on the under under surface of this which is a real phenomenon and you can see that you can say well what if we oversize the filter if you oversize the filter then it then

it just oval eyes Azure or it crimps and in folds on itself so you really have to size this to the specific vessel that you plan to target it in but just the the physics of this it's it's a tube think about a balloon a balloon doesn't

conform to this it tries to straighten everything out this isn't going to straighten the vessel out so it doesn't fully conform on the full end of the filter and you have incomplete a position and therefore

incomplete filtration so this is another failure mode I mentioned before what if it gets overloaded so here's a diagram where you have all this debris coming up it's filling up the really tiny tiny particles go past it because this little

micro sieve allows really small particles to go distal but approximately it's overloaded so now you get all this debris in there you place your stent you take your retrieval filter or catheter to take this filter out and all that

stuff that's sitting between the overloaded filter and your stent then gets liberated and goes up to the brain so you got to worry about that as well I mentioned this scenario that it builds up so much so that you can't get all the

debris out and ultimately you lose some and then when the filter is full and debris particles that are suspended near the stent or if you put that filter too close to the edge of the stent you run into problems where it may catch the

stent overall and you have all of this debris and it looks small and you don't really see it and geographically obviously but ultimately is when you do a stroke assessment and it's not always devastating strokes but mild symptoms

where he had a stroke neurologist and the crest trial or most of the more recent clinical trials we actually evaluate a patient and notice that they had small maybe sub sub clinical or mild strokes that were noted they weren't

perhaps devastating strokes but they had things that caused some degree of disability so not insignificant here's a case example of a carotid stent that was done this is a case out of Arizona proximal carotid

stenosis stent placed but then distal thrombus that developed in this case and had post rhombus removal after the epd was removed so there's thrombus overloaded the the filter you can see the filter at the very top of the center

image you can see the sort of the shadow of the embolic protection device there distally aspirated that took the filter out and then ultimately removed but you can imagine that amount of thrombus up in the brain would have been a

devastating stroke and this is what the filter looks like in real life so this is what the debris may look like so it's not this is not overloaded but that's significant debris and you can see the little film or sieve that's on the

distal part of this basket and that's what captures the debris any of that in the brain is gonna leave this patient with a residual stroke despite a successful stenting procedure so this is what we're trying to avoid so in spite

it's obviously either done with general

anesthesia or perhaps a regional block at our institution is generally done with general anesthesia we have a really combined vascular well developed combined vascular practice we work closely with our surgeons as well as

you know those who are involved in the vascular interventional space as far as the ir docs and and in this setting they would do generally general anesthetic and a longitudinal neck incision so you've got that and the need for that to

heal ultimately dissect out the internal carotid the external carotid common carotid and get vessel loops and good control over each of those and then once you have all of that you hyper NIH's the patient systemically not unlike what we

do in the angio suite and then they make a nice longer-term longitudinal incision on the carotid you spot scissors to cut those up and they actually find that plaque you can see that plaque that's shown there it's you know actually

pretty impressive if you've seen it and let's want to show an illustrative picture there ultimately that's open that's removed you don't get the entirety of the plaque inside the vessel but they get as much as they can and

then they kind of pull and yank and that's one of the pitfalls of this procedure I think ultimately is you don't get all of it you get a lot more than you realize is they're on on angiography but you don't get all of it

and whatever is left sometimes can be sometimes worse off and then ultimately you close the wound reverse the heparin and closed closed it overall and hope that they don't have an issue with wound healing don't have an issue with a

general anesthetic and don't have a stroke in the interim while they've clamped and controlled the vessel above and below so here's a case example from our institution in the past year this is a critical asymptomatic left internal

carotid artery stenosis pretty stenotic it almost looks like it's vocally occluded you can see that doesn't look very long it's in the proximal internal carotid artery you can see actually the proximal external carotid artery which

is that kind of fat vessel anteriorly also looks stenotic and so it's going to be addressed as well and this is how they treated it this is the exposure in this particular patient big incision extractors place and you can see vessel

loops up along the internal and external carotid arteries distally along some early branches of the external carotid artery off to the side and then down below in the common core artery and ultimately you get good vessel control

you clamp before you make the incision ultimately take out a plaque that looks like this look how extensive that plaque is compared to what you saw in the CT scan so it's not it's generally much more

impressive what's inside the vessel than what you appreciate on imaging but it's the focal stenosis that's the issue so ultimately if yet if the patient was a candidate stenting then you just place a stent

across that and he stabilized this plaque that's been removed and essentially plasti to that within the stent so it doesn't allow any thrombus to break off of this plaque and embolize up to the brain that's the issue of raw

it's the flow through there becomes much more turbulent as the narrowing occurs with this blockage and it's that turbulent flow that causes clot or even a small amount of clot to lodge up distally within the intrical in

terrestrial vasculature so that's the issue here at all if you don't take all that plaque out that's fine as long as you can improve the turbulent blood flow with this stent but this is not without risk so you take that plaque out which

looks pretty bad but there are some complications right so major minor stroke in death an asset which is a trial that's frequently quoted this is really this trial that was looking at medical therapy versus carotid surgery

five point eight percent of patients had some type of stroke major minor so that's not insignificant you get all that plaque out but if you know one in twenty you get a significant stroke then that's not so bad I'm not so good right

so but even if they don't get a stroke they might get a nerve palsy they might get a hematoma they may get a wound infection or even a cardiovascular event so nothing happens in the carotid but the heart has an issue because the

blockages that we have in the carotid are happening in the legs are happening in the coronary so those patients go through a stress event the general anesthetic the surgery incision whatever and then recovery from that I actually

put some stress on the whole body overall and they may get an mi so that's always an issue as well so can we do something less invasive this is actually a listing of the trials the talk is going to be available to you guys so I'm

not going to go through each of this but this is comparing medical therapy which I started with and surgery and comparing the two options per treatment and showing that in certain symptomatic patients if they have significant

stenosis which is deemed greater than 70% you may be better off treating them with surgery or stenting than with best medical therapy and as we've gotten better and better with being more aggressive with best medical therapy

this is moving a little bit but here's the criteria for treatment and so you have that available to you but really is

lymphatics you know I have this nice lymph angiogram image on the right side

of the screen here you see a plethora of lymph nodes you see a lot of fine detail not an easy image necessarily to get historically and that's for a few reasons one lymphatic fluid unlike your blood is clear right we can all look at

somebody's hand and you can look at the veins and you can see the hand an IV can go right in you can't see what the lymphatics aren't and beyond that beyond it just having clear fluid it's also has relative to blood not that many cells

which makes it hard to see and the vessels are pretty small so I've magged up on just one lymph node there and you see that one little lymph node has about 28 faire and efferent vessels going to it

so each the size of each one of those vessels is less than a millimeter in size so you can imagine if they just do a surgical biopsy and excise one of these lymph nodes in one patient they've damaged at least 20 different vessels

and if they take out multiple lymph nodes you can imagine the damage to the circulation to that particular extremity and that's why the patients end up having some of these complications the lymphatics are driven by valves

predominantly you see all these little sac you lations inside and that's where the valves are but we don't really have a good grasp for how many valves is normal with the distribution of valves and patients etc there's no central pump

so unlike the circulatory system which is dependent on the heart the lymphatics are dependent on skeletal and smooth muscle to help move things along the first method to image lymphatics historic who's actually limb for

scintigraphy and the first the first actually marker that was used was a gold base did a scintillation camera and they had some images you know it's not something we do commonly now for the purposes of detection we actually use it

as a functional scan to help guide some degree of therapy the spatial resolution is fairly poor particularly compared to fluoroscopic images but the current uses are still there particularly for sentinel lymph node

mapping breast cancer melanoma patients and/or lymphedema this is an example of a patient who had a melanoma on their back or this could easily just as well be a breast cancer patient you do an injection around the tumor and you see

what lymph node the the tracer drains to so this is a functional imaging test which can be very useful in guiding therapy when you compare that to a peripheral lymphedema you see what it looks like in this case you see one

patient in five and sixty minutes and within 60 minutes the tracer has gone from the feet where you inject all the way up to the neck that's actually a normal lymph flow centigram and that patient you look at their extremities

they're fairly symmetric you look at the second patient and you see that one leg the left leg is asymmetrically swollen compared to the right you see that the injection at five hours on that swollen extremity has not gone up above the knee

and you see it really going to the skin surface so that's a typical appearance for somebody who has lymphedema okay so it exaggerated but a fairly typical appearance you see that once the contralateral extremity is actually

traversed and gone all the way up to the thoracic duct up into the neck so we certainly see the that lymphedema is useful but the detail really isn't there

strategies so some things that we have

in place right now our peer review Grand Rounds CPOE this is one of my one of my favorite process improvements is is making the right thing the easiest thing and you do that through standardization of processes so that's standard work so

that's your order sets that's the things pop-ups although you don't want to get into pop-up fatigue but pop-ups help our providers for little gentle reminders to guide them to what's right for the patient and to cover everything that we

need we need to cover to ensure the safety of our patient so recently in the fall of last year we had a TPA administration err that occurred it involved a 69 year old patient who two weeks prior had had some stenting in her

right SFA she presented to our clinic when our clinics with some heaviness in her leg and some pain and when she was looked at from an ultrasound standpoint it was determined that her stents were from Bost so she was immediately taken

to the cath lab and it was after angiography did indeed show that there was clot inside these stents they did start catheter directed thrombolysis in the cath lab they also did started concurrent heparin often oftentimes done

with CDT what's usual for our institution is that we have templates that pull in the active problem list for a patient in this case the active problem list or a templated HMP was not used had they

used the template at agent p they would have found that the second active problem on this patients list was a cerebral aneurysm so some physicians will tell you some ir docs will tell you that's an absolute

contra contraindication for TPA however the SI r actually lists it as a relative contraindication so usually we're used to when you when you start a final Isis case you know you're gonna be coming in every 24 hours to check in

that patient in this case we started the the CDT on a Thursday the intent was to bring her back on Monday the heparin many ir nurses will know that we will run it at a low rate usually 500 units an hour and we keep the patient sub-sub

therapeutic on their PTT although current literature will show you that concurrent heparin can also be nurse managed keeping the patient therapeutic in their PTT which is what was done in this case so what ended up the the

course progression of this patient was that so remember we started on Thursday on Saturday she regained her distal pulses in her right leg no imaging Sunday she lost her DP pulse it was thought that it was part of a piece of

that clot that was in the the stent had embolized distally so they made the decision with the performing physicians they consulted him to increase the TPA that was at one milligram an hour to 2 milligrams by Sunday afternoon the

patient had an altered mental status she went to the CT scan which showed a large cerebral hemorrhage they ain't we intubated to protect her airway and by Monday we were compassionately excavating her because

she me became bred brain-dead so in the law there's something that's called the but for argument so the argument can be made that this patient would not have died but for the TPA that we gave her in a condition that she should not have had

TPA for namely that aneurysm so this shows how standard work can be very important in our care of our patients and how standard work drives us down the right way making the easiest thing the safest thing so since that time

we've had a process improvement group that we've established an order set specifically for use and thrombolysis from a peripheral standpoint and then also put together a guideline that was not in place so it's some of that Swiss

cheese that just kind of we didn't have a care set we didn't have a guideline you know we didn't use our template so all those holes lined up and we ended up with a very serious patient safety event so global human air reduction strategies

oops sorry let's go back these are listed in a weaker two stronger and some of what we're using in that case is some checklists so we developed a checklist that needs to be done to cover the

absolute contraindications as well as the relative and it's embedded in the Ulta place order that the physician has to review that checklist for those contraindications and also there to receive a phone call from pharmacy

just to double-check and make sure that they have indeed done that that it's not somebody just checking it off so we have a verbal backup sorry so the just

well switch gears and start talking about Kyllo societies histology the

etiology of Callao societies historically used to be malignancy in tuberculosis first described in the 1600s in a two-year-old who had a tuberculous peritoneal disease more recently now we see it due to aggressive

surgery whether it's renal resections for kidney cancer lymph node resections etc it can also be due to cancer the incidence is climbing rapidly this is just a graph of the incidence at different hospitals from 1930s and 1980s

I can I don't have the data for the 2000s this was a graph that I actually generated from based on several studies just to show you how profound the leak can be in these patients well looking at what we do with

maduk college societies fairly similar to what we do elsewhere we map it out we have three major Studies on that right now and a lot of smaller studies so the total nineteen manuscripts ninety six patients and in those eighty two

patients had to report whether or not they saw a leak they saw a leak in 60 of those eighty two patients and when we saw a leak we were able to cure 70 of them just by doing than paying geography and eighty eight percent when we were

able to actually embolize it so again going from in ninety percent mortality at one year if you have caused societies due to cancer or forty percent for any other cause to cure with the simple procedures is pretty amazing just to

kind of show you an example this was 55 year old gentleman who had removal of his left kidney they found a seven centimeter renal cell carcinoma incidentally while he was being worked up for a kidney stone it had been six

months of constant Kyllo societies and loss of 63 pounds before he saw me here's a lymph angiogram showing fairly typical anatomy until you see this little leak and you see the surgical clips there where his kidney was and all

of the hollow pile spilling around and surrounding his spleen I'm doing this and then we did an embolization right around that area he sent me an email two months ago just before I left the University of Michigan thanking me for

changing his life and saving his life another example this gentleman had had major debulking surgery for for testicular cancer he also has had prior bone metastasis with a hip replacement there and you see a bilateral leaks he

see multiple drains they couldn't control his fluid and we embolize all of these small leaks around his pelvis and also fixed him as well and just she see all the focal areas of leak throughout this was a three year old who'd had a

Wilms tumor resection we're mapping them out and you see the area of leak in the center there and was able to fix this child as well discharged and continued on his merry way cured protein losing

that was one example so these are there have a lot of potential complications reperfusion pulmonary edema is a very very big potential complication so you could get through the case patient does

great you open up multiple pulmonary arteries and then they start coughing up blood and then they end up started drowning in their own blood and the ICU so we do not want to push that and the initial papers that you can see down

below on that table they had a very high almost 10% in some cases pulmonary edema requiring treatment requiring patients being put on CPAP or being intubated and that is because they treated too much at one time

and so now as this when this first started in the early 2000s the operators were treating multiple segments at multiple times at one time and they were using large balloons and we figured out that that was what was killing patients

and so we changed our treatment so this is the first study that was ever performed for this it was performed by dr. Feinstein I believe this was published in circulation it was done in Harvard at MGH they had 18 patients with

36 month follow-up they all improved in their ability to walk as well as their lifestyle but many of them 11 out of 18 patients had reperfusion injury so this was the first paper and at that time it became the last paper because so many

patients did poorly but here's what they're sort of what they did and the ones that did okay they you could see that they had an improvement in the New York Heart Association classification again that just means they can walk

further they're not less short of breath and that they could walk further in 6 minutes which is again our sort of first test outcomes over time whence this has become increased so you can see that study was in 2001 and then

it kind of went away for a long time and it came back in 2012 in Japan where the most operators are there they've treated up to 255 procedures now since this slide was made we're up to a thousand in Japan and those patients are doing very

well but you'll notice that they have multiple procedures so again you don't try to one-and-done these patients they come back four to six times we've treated a couple patients where I work and we've treated that was patients four

times already and so they do much better but it's a slow slow and steady treatment so I want to wrap up with saying that the IR team is very critical to patients who are getting treated for PE we're involved in the diagnosis as

the radiology team acute and chronic PE it's very important to know as I've shown you in some of the examples and some of the images which when it's acute and versus chronic doing thrombolysis on a patient with chronic PE is useless all

you're doing is putting them at a risk you're not going to be able to break up that clot it's very important to have inter and multidisciplinary approach to patient care so interdisciplinary meaning everybody in this room nurses

technologists and physicians working together to take care of that patient that's on your table right now and multi-disciplinary because you have to work with cardiology vascular medicine the ICU teams and the

referring providers whether it's neurosurgery vascular surgery whomever it is who's Evers patient gets a PE you have to work together and it's very important again to have collaborative care in these patients if we're doing a

procedure and somebody notices that the patient is desaturating that's very very important when you're working in the pulmonary arteries if somebody notices that the patient's groin is bleeding you have to speak up so it's very important

that everybody is working together which is really what we need to do for these patients so there's my references and there's my kid so thank you guys very much hopefully this was helpful I'd be

talk here with something that's new on the horizon believe it or not it was actually on the horizon 20 years ago and then it went away because there were a lot of patients that were treated with a

lot of complications and it's making a resurgence and this is balloon pulmonary angioplasty or BPA for short so this is an intervention which may be feasible in non-operative candidates so I mentioned to the Jamison classification earlier

type 1 and type 2 disease should be treated with surgery again it should be treated is curative but patients with type 2 and a half or 3 disease can be treated with balloon pulmonary angioplasty in the right in the right

frame which means that a surgeon has said I cannot operate on this a medical doctor has said boy they're not going to get better with their medicine let's try something else well this is that something else and that's what involves

everyone in this room so this is these are usually staged interventions with potentially high radiation and contrast dose if you think about it it's like Venis recan and a pulmonary AVM all-in-one so it's a potentially a long

complex procedure with a lot of contrast and a lot of radiation but it can provide a lot of benefit to these patients I'm going to talk about the comp potential complications at the end which is one reason why not

everyone should do these all the time so this is a pulmonary angiogram from the literature when you're injecting a selective pulmonary artery you can see that this patient has multiple stenosis there's no real good flow there the

vessels look shriveled up like I mentioned to you before you can get a balloon across it and balloon the areas and then you can see afterwards so the image a on the left is before an image D is afterwards believe it or not this are

in the most experienced hands because the most experienced hands are for palm the BP AR in Japan they do hundreds of cases of these a year at each hospital I've personally only done five so but this is a something that I'm very

interested in and you can see how how much benefit it has for that patient another way you can see these are the webs and the bands that I mentioned to you earlier so what's interesting is that if you look on the first set of

images on the top and the images on the bottom those are the same patients it's the same view before top rows before and the bottom rows after balloon pulmonary angioplasty so the first image is a pulmonary angiogram where if you kind of

see this there's there's some area areas of haziness those are the webs and bands the image on the the middle is the blown-up views and you can see those areas and then the image on the right is intravascular ultrasound which I use

every day in my practice it's a catheter with an ultrasound on it and when you look at it on the top image image see you can see a lot of thrombus you're actually not seeing flow and on image F on the bottom you're seeing red which is

the blood flow so these patients can actually improve the luminal diameter bye-bye ballooning them you can treat occlusions again image on the left shows you a pulmonary artery with a basically an occlusion proximally and then after

you reek analyze it and balloon it you can see that they can get much more

patient who did not come from the street so if you've been here for a few years

you've heard me talk about you know some of my friends this is also one of my other friends who has large fibroids but her fibroids were so big and they were not all very vascular and so I sent her to have surgery and she ended up having

a hysterectomy with removal of her cervix because of abnormal pap smears but her ovaries were left in place so our path forward after doing this procedure from 1995 a procedure that is not experimental a procedure that has

had a lot a lot of research done on it more research than most procedures that are done surgically or by interventional radiologists I'd say that it would require a partnership it is true that we can see patients on our own and we can

manage mostly everything but at the end of the day uterine artery embolization is still a palliative procedure because we don't know what causes fibroids to begin with and as long as the uterus is still there there's always a chance that

new fibroids will come back so in your practice and in mind I believe that a path forward is a sustaining program embolization program which is built on a relationship with the gynecologist that yes

I am as aggressive as any other interventionist that is out there but if this were my mom and that is my usual test for things I would say that where we would like to position ourselves is in the business of informing the

patient's as much as possible so that they can make an informed decision and that we're asking our gynecology partners to do the same is that if you're going to have a hysterectomy for a benign disease that you should demand

and we as a society and you as your sisters keeper should be asking for why am I not eligible for an embolization so si R is actually embarking on a major campaign in the next year or so it's called the vision to heal campaign and

it's all around providing education for this disease stage what I like to tell our patients and I'm almost finished here is when I talk to our gynecologist and to techs and nurses as well I said woody woody what should I expect right

that's what they want to know when I send my patient to you what should I expect and I say that what you should expect that Shawn and myself we're gonna tell the patient everything about fibroids we're gonna talk to them about

what the fibroids are the pathophysiology of it the same things I told you we're gonna tell them about the procedures that treat it we tell them about the options to do nothing we talk about all of the risk and the benefits

of the procedures especially of fibroid embolization and we start the workup to see if they're an appropriate candidate when they're an appropriate candidate we communicate with them and their OBGYN and then we schedule them for their

procedure in our practice there are a few of us who send our patients home on the same day and we let our patients know no one is kicking you out of the hospital if you can't go home that day then you'll get to stay but

most of our patients are able to go home that day and then we see our patients back in clinic somewhere between two and four months three months and six months and we own that patient follow-up their visits and after their year we have them

follow back up with their gynecologist and so that we're managing all of these sites and it comes back to that new again may not be so new for some of the people that have been doing clinical IR four years that shift that we own these

patients if you're a nurse in this room these are our patients these questions need to be answered by us in our department we do not believe that these patients should be calling their gynecologist for the answers to that

like what should I be doing right now should I be taking I haven't had a bowel movement and like that is something that we answer we're the ones that are given them the discharge instructions and we set them back up for their follow-up so

and you can see on this t1-weighted image that increased area of enhancement which is the area of synovial thickening you actually see this on MRI beforehand and there it is located over the lateral aspect of the knee on the axial image

and so what we're doing sorry in the medial aspect of the knee so what we're doing here on the angiogram is and you solve these leg angiograms where everyone doesn't really care about these Janicki lit arteries they're really

important when you have sfa or popliteal occlusive disease because they serve as a collateral source but otherwise and people have arthritis they can be a real pain and pain in the knee if you will so this is a this is the superior medial

genicular artery it always drapes over the femoral condyle and you'll see here on this image you don't really see very much once we get into the vessel look at this it almost looks like a small about a cellular carcinoma like when you're in

the liver you get this tumor type blush vascularity that's what we're looking for that corresponds to the patient's area of pain and then after embolization this is what it looks like takes a very small amount

of embolic we're using maybe 0.4 2.6 sometimes 1 CC at most of dilute embolic that we're injecting this is another case again before and after if you look here on the right and then on the left you don't really see much until you

select the vessel out once you get into that super medial vessel you can see how much enhancement there is so in our clinical study of 20 patients this is what we did you'll see on the bottom here we used embassy and 75 micron in 9

patients and 1111 patients got a 100 micron and I'll explain why we upsized our particles so initially we wanted to go very small because that's what dr. o Cano had done in Japan but then we wanted to actually up size our particles

and I'll explain this here in our complications so like all clinical studies the purpose of doing really good clinical research is because this is early and we don't know if they're going to be complications and it's always fun

when you're the first one to figure it out and you tell patients I don't really know what's gonna happen and this is what happens so 13 patients had this kind of skin discoloration over their knee now we knew this because we've been

doing knee embolization for about 10 years in bleeding patients not necessarily arthritic patients so we had seen this before but none of these patients in this clinical study went on to have any alteration of the skin and

it resolved in all patients there was some minor side effects from basically medications and one small groin hematoma but there were two patients who developed plantar numbness over their great toe so under their great toe

basically in the medial distribution of their tibial nerve they ended up getting plantar numbness and this is believed at least in our experience to probably be related to non-target embolization to the tibial nerve the tibial nerve

probably gets its blood supply from many of these generic arteries so we decided

they travel together so that's what leads to the increased pain and sensitivity so in the knee there have been studies like 2015 we published that study on 13 patients with 24 month follow-up for knee embolization for

bleeding which you may have seen very commonly in your institution but dr. Okun Oh in 2015 published that article on the bottom left 14 patients where he did embolization in the knee for people with arthritis he actually used an

antibiotic not imposing EMBO sphere and any other particle he did use embolus for in a couple patients sorry EMBO zine in a couple of patients but mainly used in antibiotic so many of you know if antibiotics are like crystalline

substances they're like salt so you can't inject them in arteries that's why I have to go into IVs so they use this in Japan to inject and then dissolve so they go into the artery they dissolve and they're resorbable so they cause a

like a light and Baalak effect and then they go away he found that these patients had a decrease in pain after doing knee embolization subsequently he published a paper on 72 patients 95 needs in which he had an

excellent clinical success clinical success was defined as a greater than 50% reduction in knee pain so they had more than 50% reduction in knee pain in 86 percent of the patients at two years 79 percent of these patients still had

knee pain relief that's very impressive results for a procedure which basically takes in about 45 minutes to an hour so we designed a u.s. clinical study we got an investigational device exemption actually Julie's our clinical research

coordinator for this study and these are the inclusion exclusion criteria we basically excluded patients who have rheumatoid arthritis previous surgery and you had to have moderate or severe pain so greater than 50 means basically

greater than five out of ten on a pain scale we use a pain scale of 0 to 100 because it allows you to delineate pain a little bit better and you had to be refractory to something so you had to fail medications injections

radiofrequency ablation you had to fail some other treatment we followed these patients for six months and we got x-rays and MRIs before and then we got MRIs at one month to assess for if there was any non-target embolization likes a

bone infarct after this procedure these are the clinical scales we use to assess they're not really so important as much as it is we're trying to track pain and we're trying to check disability so one is the VA s or visual analog score and

on right is the Womack scale so patients fill this out and you can assess how disabled they are from their knee pain it assesses their function their stiffness and their pain it's a little

bit limiting because of course most patients have bilateral knee pain so we try and assess someone's function and you've improved one knee sometimes them walking up a flight of stairs may not improve significantly but their pain may

improve significantly in that knee when we did our patients these were the baseline demographics and our patients the average age was 65 and you see here the average BMI in our patients is 35 so this is on board or class 1 class 2

obesity if you look at the Japanese study the BMI in that patient that doctor okano had published the average BMI and their patient population was 25 so it gives you a big difference in the patient population we're treating and

that may impact their results how do we actually do the procedure so we palpate the knee and we feel for where the pain is so that's why we have these blue circles on there so we basically palpate the knee and figure

out is the pain medial lateral superior inferior and then we target those two Nicollet arteries and as depicted on this image there are basically 6 to Nicollet arteries that we look for 3 on the medial side 3 on the lateral side

once we know where they have pain we only go there so we're not going to treat the whole knee so people come in and say my whole knee hurts they're not really going to be a good candidate for this procedure you want focal synovitis

or inflammation which is what we're looking for and most people have medial and Lee pain but there are a small subset of patients of lateral pain so this is an example patient from our study says patient had an MRI beforehand

questions comments and accusations please hello this topic is very personal to me I've had it actually had a UFE so this is like one of my big things I work in the outpatient center as well as a

hospital where we perform you Effy's and frequently the radiologist will have me go in and talk to the patient it's from a personal perspective one of the issues which it may just have been from my situation was pain control post UFE

whether you normally tell your patients about pain control after the UFE someone say we are all struggling with this yeah oh it's not what's your question is going to be okay good I'm gonna get doctor Dora to answer Shawn the question

is what do you what do we do with this pain issue you know what are you doing for the home there at Emory there you know and a lot of practices we we don't rely on one magic bullet for pain control recently we've been doing

alternate procedures for two adjunctive procedures to help with pain control for example there are nerve blocks that you can do like a superior hypogastric nerve block there's there's Tylenol that can be given intravenously which is seems to

be a little more effective than by mouth there's there's a you know it and a lot of times it's it's a delicate balance right between pain post procedural pain because you can often get the pain well controlled with with narcotics opioid

with a pain pump but the problem is 12 hours later the patients is extremely nauseous and that's what keeps her in the hospital so it's a it's a balance between pain control and nausea you can you can hit the nausea

beforehand using a pain and scopolamine patch that that'll get built up in the system during the procedure and that kind of obviates the nausea issues like I said that the the nerve blocks the the tile and also there are some other

medicines that can can be used adjunctive leaf or for pain control in addition to to the to the opioids so the answer the question is there are multiple there multiple answers to the question there's not one magic bullet so

that helped it did one of the things that I tell the patients is that you know everyone is different and yet some people I've seen patients come out and they have no pain they're like perfect and then some come out and they are

writhing in the bed and they're hurting and they're rolling all around what and I always ask the acid docs are you telling them they could possibly have you know pain after the procedure because some have the expectation that

I'm going to be pain-free and that's not always the case so they have an unrealistic expectation that I'm gonna have the UFE but not have pain what I also tell them is that the pain it's kind of like an investment right and

this is easy for a guy to say that right but but it's it's an investment the worst part the worst pain you should be feeling is the first 12 12 hours or so every day I tell my patient you're gonna be getting better and better and better

with far as the pain as long as you is you follow our little cookbook of medicines that we give you on the way home and I want you to make sure that you fill these prescriptions on the way home or you have someone fill those

prescriptions for you before he or she picked you up in the hospital and lately we have been and I see that you're there as well lots of other little tricks that are out there right and again there are all

little tricks so ensure arterial lidocaine doctor there is near alluded to and if you're on si R Connect you may it may spill over on some of your chat rooms here people have been using like muscle relaxant like flexural or

robertson with some success but just know that we don't have any studies that tell us how that's supposed to do so when i have someone that is like writhing in pain i just use everything so i do it superior hypogastric nerve

vlog and i actually will do some intra-arterial lidocaine although not so much lately i have been using the muscle relaxant but i will warn you that i've had two patients with extreme anticholinergic effects where they are

now not able to pee from that so you know where we're doing that balance act I see that you're there can I take that question here first just so we're we're doing the same thing we're using the multimodal just throwing all these

things at people and we're trying the superior hypogastric blocks but we're collaborating with anesthesia to do that right now do you all do your own blocks or do you collaborate with anesthesia we do our own blocks okay it isn't it is

not that difficult I would tell you that but again it's kind of like you know you got to do if you start feeling better and then you're like we don't really need them we'll just do it on our own okay thank you again yes what's the

acceptable interval between UFE and for IBF oh that's a your question what is the interval between UFE and IVF so if you wanted to get pregnant yeah and can you have a you Fe and then have an IVF like how long would you have to wait

wait and tell you before you can have that the IBF it I guess it really depends on the age of the patient because we know that that the threshold for which patient tend to have that inability to conceive

is around 45 years old so you know it did below the you know below the age of 45 the risk of causing ovarian failure or or the inability to conceive is significantly less it's zero zero to three percent so I would say that you

know you probably want the effects of the fibroid embolization to two to take effect it takes around 12 months for these fibroids to shrink down to their most weight that they're gonna they're going to shrink down the most I wouldn't

say you need to wait 12 months to put our nine vitro fertilization there's no good there's no good literature out there I don't believe that's your next and so I would say just remember that if you came to my practice and you said you

wanted to get pregnant I will be sending you to talk to fertility specialists beforehand we do not perform embolization procedures as a way to become pregnant there's no data to support that but if you saw your

gynecologist and they said let's do this then I'm sure they'll be doing lots of adjunct things to figure out what would be an ideal time then to for you to have IVF and if I dove not having any data to inform me I would ask you to wait a year

and what will be the effect of those hormones that they gave you if for example a patient has existing fibroids what would be the effect of those hormones that IVF doctors prescribed their patients yeah so fibroids actually

can grow during pregnancy so I would say that most of those hormones are pro fertility hormones so I would expect that maybe you can see some of that effect as well yeah alright if you have any other questions you can grab me oh

you're I'm sorry go with it okay yes we we have time I don't want to keep anybody here for that so I have a two-fold question the first one is post-procedure can you use a diclofenac patch or a 12-hour pain

patch that is a an NSAID have you have any experience with that and your next question my second part of the question is there a patient profile or a psychological profile that tips you that the patient is not going to be able to

candidate because of their issues around pain so they're two separate but we have in success sending people home that first day so I'm looking to just make it better I haven't had experience with the Clos

phonetic patch it's in theory it seems ok you know these are all the these are they're all these are non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs so there are different potency levels for all of them they you know they range from very low

with with naproxen to to a little bit higher with toradol like that clover neck I think is somewhere in between so we found that at least I found that that q6 our our tour at all it tends to help a lot so with that said I I don't have

much experience with it with the patch in answer to your second question the only thing I can say is there there is a strong correlation between size of fibroids and the the amount of a post procedural pain and post embolization

syndrome so there really you know we often say we don't really care too much about the number of fibroids but the size of the fibroid is is is should be you know you should you should look at that on pre procedural imaging because

if it gets too big it may not be worth it for the patient because they may be in severe pain the more embolic you put into the blood supply's applying the the fibroid the the greater the pain post procedural pain

are there multiple other factors that would contribute to pain but that's that's one aspect you can you can look at post procedurally on imaging okay thank you very much yes ma'am hi what what kind of catheter do you use

to catheterize the fibroid artery when you pass by radio access yeah so over the last three years the companies have been really very good about that so there are a few things that I without endorsing one company or the other that

you need to make sure that the sheath that you're using is one of those radial sheets a company that makes a radio sheath you should not use a femoral sheath for radial access so no cheating where that's concern you may get away

with it once or twice but it will catch up to you and you need a catheter that is long enough to go from the radio to the to the groin so I'm looking for like a 120 or 125 centimeter kind of angled catheter whether it's hydrophilic the

whole way or just a hydrophilic tip or not at all you can you can choose which one in our practice most of us still tend to use a micro catheter through that catheter although if I'm using a for French and good glide calf and it

just flips into like a nice big juicy uterine artery then I may just go ahead and take that and do the embolization if the fellow is not scrubbed in as well so thanks a lot but they make they make many different kinds like that and more

of those are to come all right I'm you can please please please send us any other questions that you have thanks for your time and attention and enjoy the rest of the living

so just a compliment what we everybody's talked about I think a great introduction for diagnosing PID the imaging techniques to evaluate it some of the Loney I want to talk about some of the above knee interventions no disclosures when it sort of jumped into

a little bit there's a 58 year old male who has a focal non-healing where the right heel now interestingly we when he was referred to me he was referred to for me for a woman that they kept emphasizing at the anterior end going

down the medial aspect of the heel so when I literally looked at that that was really a venous stasis wound so he has a mixed wound and everybody was jumping on that wound but his hour till wound was this this right heel rudra category-five

his risk factors again we talked about diabetes being a large one that in tandem with smoking I think are the biggest risk factors that I see most patient patients with wounds having just as we talked about earlier we I started

with a non-invasive you can see on the left side this is the abnormal side the I'm sorry the right leg is the abnormal the left leg is the normal side so you can see the triphasic waveforms the multiphasic waveforms on the left the

monophasic waveforms immediately at the right I don't typically do a lot of cross-sectional imaging I think a lot of information can be obtained just from the non-invasive just from this the first thing going through my head is he

has some sort of inflow disease with it that's iliac or common I'll typically follow within our child duplex to really localize the disease and carry out my treatment I think a quick comment on a little bit of clinicals so these

waveforms will correlate with your your Honourable pencil Doppler so one thing I always emphasize with our staff is when they do do those audible physical exams don't tell me whether there's simply a Doppler waveform or a Doppler pulse I

don't really care if there's not that means their leg would fall off what I care about is if monophasic was at least multiphasic that actually tells me a lot it tells me a lot afterwards if we gain back that multiphase the city but again

looking at this a couple of things I can tell he has disease high on the right says points we can either go PITA we can go antegrade with no contralateral in this case I'll be since he has hide he's used to the right go contralateral to

the left comment come on over so here's the angio I know NGOs are difficult Aaron when there's no background so just for reference I provided some of the anatomy so this is the right you know groin area

right femur so the right common from artery and SFA you have a downward down to the knee so here's the pop so if we look at this he has Multi multi multiple areas of disease I would say that patients that have above knee disease

that have wounds either have to level disease meaning you have iliac and fem-pop or they at least have to have to heal disease typically one level disease will really be clot against again another emphasis a lot of these patients

since they're not very mobile they're not very ambulatory this these patients often come with first a wound or rest pain so is this is a patient was that example anyway so what we see again is the multifocal occlusions asta knows

he's common femoral origin a common femoral artery sfa origin proximal segment we have a occlusion at the distal sfa so about right here past the air-duct iratus plus another occlusion at the mid pop to talk about just again

the tandem disease baloney he also has a posterior tibial occlusion we talked about the fact that angio some concept so even if I treat all of this above I have to go after that posterior tibial to get to that heel wound and complement

the perineal so ways to reach analyze you know the the biggest obstacle here is on to the the occlusions i want to mention some of the devices out there I'm not trying to get in detail but just to make it reader where you know there's

the baiance catheter from atronics essentially like a little metal drill it wobbles and tries to find the path of least resistance to get through the occlusion the cross or device from bard is a device that is essentially or what

I call is a frakking device they're examples they'll take a little peppermint they'll sort of tap away don't roll the hole peppermint so it's like a fracking device essentially it's a water jet

that's pulse hammering and then but but to be honest I think the most effective method is traditional wire work sorry about that there are multiple you know you're probably aware of just CTO wires multi weighted different gramm wires 12

gram 20 gram 30 gram wires I tend to start low and go high so I'll start with the 12 gram uses supporting micro catheter like a cxi micro catheter a trailblazer and a B cross so to look at here the sheath I've placed a sheet that

goes into the SFA I'm attacking the two occlusions first the what I used is the micro catheter about an 1/8 micro catheter when the supporting my catheters started with a trailblazer down into the crossing the first

occlusion here the first NGO just shows up confirmed that I'm still luminal right I want to state luminal once I've crossed that first I've now gone and attacked the second occlusion across that occlusion so once I've cross that

up confirm that I'm luminal and then the second question is what do you want to do with that there's gonna be a lot of discussions on whether you want Stan's direct me that can be hold hold on debate but I think a couple of things we

can agree we're crossing their courageous we're at the pop if we can minimize standing that region that be beneficial so for after ectomy couple of flavors there's the hawk device which

essentially has a little cutter asymmetrical cutter that allows you to actually shave that plaque and collect that plaque out there's also a horrible out there device that from CSI the dime back it's used to sort of really sort of

like a plaque modifier and softened down that plaque art so in this case I've used this the hawk device the hawk has a little bit of a of a bend in the proximal aspect of the catheter that lets you bias the the device to shape

the plaque so here what I've done you there you can see the the the the the teeth itself so you can tell we're lateral muta Liz or right or left is but it's very hard to see did some what's AP and posterior so usually

what I do is I hop left and right I turned the I about 45 degrees and now to hawk AP posterior I'm again just talking left to right so I can always see where the the the the AP ended so I can always tell without the the teeth

are angioplasty and then here once I'm done Joan nice caliber restored flow restored then we attacked the the common for most enosis and sfa stenosis again having that device be able to to an to direct

that device allows me to avoid sensing at the common femoral the the plaque is resolved from the common femoral I then turn it and then attack the the plaque on the lateral aspect again angioplasty restore flow into the common firm on the

proximal SFA so that was the there's the plaque that you can actually obtain from that Hawk so you're physically removing that that plaque so so that's you know that's the the restoration that flow just just you know I did attack the

posterior tibial I can cross that area I use the diamond back for that balloon did open it up second case is a woman

plan as well so I wanted to talk a

little bit about imaging I know with our residents and fellows and radiology that's all we do is talk about the imaging and then when go on to IR we talked to them about the intervention but I think it's important

for everyone in this room to see more imaging and see what we're looking at because it's very important for us all to be doing on the same page whether you're a nurse a technologist a physician or anybody else in the room

we're all taking care of that patient and the more information we all have the better it is for that patient so quick primer on a PE imaging so this is a coned in view of a CT pulmonary angiogram so yeah sometimes you'll see

CTS that are that are set for a pulmonary artery's and you'll see some that are timed for the aorta but if the pulmonary arteries are well pacified you're gonna see thrombus so I have two arrows there showing you thrombus that's

sort of blocking the main pulmonary arteries on the left and right side on the patient's left so the one with the arrow that is a sort of very classic appearance of an intro luminal thrombus you can see a little rim of contrast

surrounding it and it's usually at branch points and it's centered in the vessel the one on the right with the arrow head is really at a big branch point so that's where the right lower lobe segmental branches are coming off

and you can see there's just a big amount of thrombus there you can see distal infarct so if you're looking in the long windows you'll see that there's this kind of it's called a mosaic perfusion but it also what kind of looks

like a cobweb and that's actually pulmonary infarct and maybe some blood there which actually will change what we're gonna do because in those cases freaken we will not perform PE thrombolysis it's also important to note

that acute and chronic PE which we're here to talk about today may look very similar on a CT scan and they have completely different treatment methods so here's a sagittal view from that same patient you can see the CT scan so

between the arrow heads is with the tram track appearance so you'll see that there's thrombus the grey stuff in the middle and you'll see the white contrasts surrounding it and kind of like a tram track and that's very

classic for acute PE and then of course where the big arrow is is just the big thrombus sitting there here's another view of a coronal this is actually on a young woman which I think we show some images on but you can see cannonball

looking thrombus in the main pulmonary arteries very classic variants for acute PE and then this is that same patient in a sagittal view again showing you in the left pulmonary kind of those big cannon balls of

thrombus here's some examples from the literature showing you the same thing when you're looking at an acute PE it's right centered on all the image all the way in the left if the classic thrombus is centered right in the middle of the

vessel you can usually see a rim of normal contrast around it and you can see on a sagittal or coronal view kind of like a thin strip of floating thrombus so the main therapies for acute

know we're running a bit short on time so I want to briefly just touch about

some techniques with comb beam CT which are very helpful to us there are a lot of reasons why you should use comb beam CT it gives us the the most extensive anatomic understanding of vascular territories and the implications for

that with oncology are extremely valuable because of things like margin like we discussed here's an example of a patient who had a high AF P and their bloodstream which tells us that they have a cancer in her liver we can't see

it on the CT there but if you do a cone beam CT it stands up quite nicely why because you're giving levels of contrast that if you were to give them through a peripheral IV it would be toxic to the patient but when you're infusing into a

segment the body tolerates at the problem so patient preparation anxa lysis is key you have them exhale above three seconds prior to that there's a lot of change to how we're doing this people who are introducing radial access

power injection anywhere from about 50 to even sometimes thirty to a hundred percent contrast depends on what phase you're imaging we have a Animoto power injector that allows us to slide what contrast concentration we like a lot of

times people just rely on 30% and do their whole the case with that some people do a hundred percent image quality this is what it looks like when someone's breathing this is very difficult to tell if there's complete

lesion enhancement so if you do your comb beam CT know it looks like this this is trying to coach the patient and try to get them to hold still and then this is the patient after coaching which looks like this so you can tell that you

have a missing portion of the lesion and you have to treat into another segment what about when you're doing an angio and you do a cone beam CT NIT looks like this this is what insufficient counts looks like on comb beam so when you see

these sort of Shell station lines that are going all over the screen you have to raise dose usually in larger patients but this is you know you either slow down the acquisition speed of your comb beam or

you raise dose this is what it looks like after we gave it a higher dose protocol it really changes everything those lines are still there but they're much smaller how do you know if you have enhancement or a narrow artifact you can

repeat with non-contrast CT and give the patient glucagon and you can find the small very these small arteries that pick off the left that commonly profuse the stomach the right gastric artery you can use your comb beam CT to find

non-target evaluation even when your angio doesn't suggest it so this is a patient they have recurrent HCC we didn't angio from here those arteries down there where those coils were looked funny even though the patient was

quote-unquote coiled off we did a comb beam CT and that little squiggly C shape structures that duodenum that's contrast going in it this would be probably a lethal event for the patient or certainly would require surgery if you

treated that much with y9t reposition the catheter deeper towards the lesion and you can repeat your comb beam CT and see that you don't have an hands minh sometimes you have these little accessory left gastric artery this is

where we really need your help you know a lot of times everyone's focused and I think the more eyes the better for these kind of things but we're looking for these little tiny vessels that sometimes hop out of the liver and back into the

stomach or up into the esophagus there's a very very small right gastric artery in this picture here this patient post hepatectomy that rides along the inferior surface of the liver it's a little curly cube so and this is a small

esophageal branch so when you do comb beam TT this is what the stomach looks like when it enhances and this is what the esophagus looks like when it enhances you can do non contrast comb beam CTS to confirm ablation so you have

a lesion this is the comb beam CT for enhancement you treat with your embolic and this is a post to determine that you've had completely shin coverage and you can see how that correlates a response so the last thing we're going

patient like this you have a very large left lateral HCC that's invading the left the patek vein and extending into the heart since when we get into things like radioembolisation if you have

multifocal liver disease if you want to apply radiation therapy to that's very difficult to do that because it actually requires more radiation dose to kill HCC than it does the adjacent normal liver the liver is actually that ready

sensitive so you can do things like SBRT and pick an individual lesion you can do things like a imrt which is you know survey 8 non focus generalize low dose but what's interesting Malaysian is that if you administer

particles they only shoot about two millimeters worth of the raishin field around it so of what used is that with one not much but if you put eight to forty million of them within the bloodstream they Auto sort themselves

based off of the vascular flow preferential that exists with tumors tumors actually emit hormones pull in blood supply that you weren't born with and that actually tends to pull beads from the bloodstream preferentially

towards it so this is an example where you stain a tumor with two types of wax one the portal that's blue one the artery that's red and you can see how much that preferential exists so what ends up happening is these spheres

cluster within the tumor and then provide local dose radiation that's very hot where the tumor is and low elsewhere so here's an example of that this is a patient with metastatic neuroendocrine disease multifocal liver lesions you can

see that vascular flow preferential this is what it looks like on the maa when we jecht a protein particle surrogate that has a technician I should have assigned to it just as a visualization of how the particle is

going to sort out and the post y9t bremsstrahlung CT is over there and you can see how intense the necrosis is within the tumor and how much it's spared the normal liver however you do get some radiation damage they don't

live a regardless that's why choosing the timing of when you're gonna do this is important this is a patient that was treated with tastes above and one session of y9u beneath so you can see that they do have different types of

therapeutic mechanisms they're not the same even though they look very similar in terms of when we're administering

improvement so this is an example that we've treated at Michigan us a 67 year old female patient who has CTF she's gone through sort of a treatment she

turned down so she was not a good candidate for surgery because her disease is distally it's in the sub segmental branches so we went back and forth for you actually on this patient when we're

starting our program and decided that she would be the right patient to start she followed instructions she was her disease was severe enough that I was affecting her life she couldn't walk from here to the back of the room she

was on medication she didn't qualify for the surgery so we said she'd be the right wand and so we started with a pulmonary angiogram you can see there's disease it's not the worst patient that you would see because those would be

surgical but well you see those arrow heads there's areas of webs there's areas of occlusions and stenosis so she's got all the different types of pathology morphology would be great for treatment so what we did as we do in all

these cases get a wire across it if we can wreak analyze it we get a wire we never use hydrophilic wires that's actually contraindicated in these so you never use like a glide wire an O and a glide wire you never use a v 18 or any

of those types of wires because those have a higher risk of perforation frequently we actually use coronary wires from the inner from our colleagues in interventional cardiology you cross the lesion and then you balloon it with

a very very very small balloon so you do not want to get aggressive in these patients we start with a two millimeter balloon even if the vessel should be four or five millimeters we always start with the two millimeter balloon and you

can bring them back and do another intervention in a few months at without a larger sized balloon so in this patient we ballooned two branches in the right lower lobe and then this is what it looks like afterwards so you have

improved flow it doesn't look perfect we're not going for perfect we're going for profusion so if you think about that same thing with acute PE you're not going for a perfect image you just want to get perfusion distally and then the

body will figure it out afterwards so

so who are the most ideal candidates for fibroid embolization obviously I would say the most ideal candidates are patients that are symptomatic and I've told you already that 80% of black women

have fibroids but guess what only half of those will be so symptomatic that they would need to be even treated so just because fibroids exist don't mean that they need to actually be treated already so you

to actually have symptoms most patients that are symptomatic will again wait to getting treatment for like three and a half to five years but when they come we want to make sure that they're symptomatic and that they're not trying

to become pregnant and I know somebody in the audience has a question around that already so let's hold your high horses I'm coming to that how about patients that don't want to have surgery or just don't have time to

have surgery they don't have time for long recovery if you don't care if you have your uterus or not then I'm not so sure that you need to be pursuing a uterine sparing procedure okay and I'm gonna pause here to address one other

thing that it's a myth it is a myth that if you do not need to have children then you do not need your uterus I beg to differ and when we talk to women they are quite upset about this preposition that the uterus is only there for

baby-making purposes in fact there have been several studies now that have come out to say that women that have had early hysterectomy even with their ovaries in place are predisposed to coronary artery disease or

cardiovascular events we would like patients that are poor surgical candidates because if they can have surgery then they may be able to have surgery or patients that do not desire future fertility patients that have

already concerns about hysterectomy because of religious reasons or don't want to have hormonal therapy and I actually like patients that have have a have obesity because if we are able to do this procedure then they're spared

more complications related to surgery so the ideal patient then and this is a very important point said all three criteria would need to be fit that if you're a patient in order to be offered embolization number one

you have to have fibroids believe it or not you have to have symptoms that are related to fibroids and then you have to have some MRI that says that the location of where your fiber it is is causing that symptom and that these

fibroids are vascular let me explain okay and I'm going to skip this so I've been working with people for a long enough time and I've work of Julie for years I've worked with Diane and Anna and some other people for like ten years

and imagine if you're working with me for ten years you know that you're probably going to be able to do this procedure too like you're scrubbing right next to me eventually like you pick these things up what I get paid for

is not to do that and for the experienced nurses and techs that are in the room you know exactly what I'm talking about you're better than the doctors half of the time you really could do this procedure but what I get

paid for is to decide who does not even get to come on the table to get this procedure done so pay attention to this slide and these this criteria is being challenged every day and we're getting more and more data to say that this is

old information that we used to say if the uterus was like more than six months then you probably shouldn't have a uterine sparing procedure but we know that we do in embolization all the time in patients that have large fibroids

anyway but there's no data to actually give us that information most of the trials that we have and we have had a lot of them they have excluded patients where their individual fibroids were greater than 12 centimeters if you have

had an indeterminate and de metrio biopsy or you're having abnormal pap smear doing a uterine sparing procedure makes no sense so we use these imaging to really help us to determine which patients really

deserve to be treated so everybody can see that that image on the Left where it says submucosal refers to and I'm gonna try and come down so I can see these images here and you can see that there is a fibroid that is in

truck hava teri do you see that that round thing that is surrounded by the white fluid that is someone that has what we would call a type zero fibroid completely within the unit of course this is going to cause bleeding but

should this person have a uterine artery embolization or a hysterectomy Gail no this patient should have like hysteroscopic resection like a D&C and they would just scrape that thing out and then their symptoms would go away or

the patient on the right that has a normal appearing uterus and then this pedunculated gigantic thing that has bled into itself that is like a sub serosa fibroid of the extreme just hanging off on the outside now should

this patient have embolization no someone can tie a string right at that little connection and take that thing out so using our imaging to help us to decide which patients should be treated is very important or this patient who

came with Oh dr. Newsome I've been bleeding for 10 weeks in a row I have reversed cycles I have bulk I have bladder symptoms and yet they have that little dot that little black thing there that little dot

at the top that is the only place where there's a fibroid so this patient should not be a candidate for embolization either because yes they have symptoms and they have that little tiny daughter for fibra but that is not what's causing

those symptoms so it is important that we're not doing procedures on patients just because we can but because we're using our imaging and the patient's symptom to decide which patients are the best candidates for these procedures

after having these two cases one in our institution and one at University of North Carolina Chapel Hill that we would then basically upsize our particles to

100 micron and we have not seen that and we're doing a second clinical study and I'm not seeing that as either we had about a 70% reduction in pain so if you look at our visual analog score out to six months and if you look at our

disability it actually paralleled this exactly which is pretty impressive considering mostly patients had bilateral knee pain so out to six months very good results 90% of patients were responders so two

out of our twenty patients did not really respond one patient didn't respond at his one-month follow-up but did respond at his three and six so I still consider him a clinical failure because we expect

these patients to respond by one month here's just an example of a baseline MRI before and after and you can see all that joint effusion there the white that decreases just even after a month how much it decreases and we looked at this

in terms of synovial thickness and distension and even on MRI you can object objectively count calculate synovitis scores and we calculated that they actually statistically decreased this is another patient on the left the

image shows diffuse white enhancement if you will of the synovium of the lining on the right it shows the fluid this is an image just of embolization and I show this image because it's really shocking and this is actually one of our nurses

who's enrolled in a clinical study is this is before this is all we did we embolized the medial aspect of the knee this is one month later 30 days in fact somebody just asked me this when I was in the booth over at the meeting across

the street and basically I said listen I don't know why this happened so quickly I have no idea we didn't tap renu-it into anything else if you look at this premium post it's pretty dramatic so clearly there's an inflammatory process

that we are arresting or stopping in such a short period of time so is there a future for this I don't know it may just we may just fall down and find out that there really is in a great future but so far we know it's at least

technically successful it's the results are positive in the short term long term we're not so sure yet we do need to better understand these risks and I think in my opinion in the long term it'll probably be really really good for

this 40 to 65 year old patient population who's not yet ready for knee replacement surgery this is the algorithm for our clinical study which were almost done enrolling right now it's a randomized control study against

placebo so it's two to one randomization which means one third of the patients actually get a sham procedure so we do an angiogram on their leg they're asleep they have no idea for embolizing they're genetical it arteries or not we wake

them up I think about the table and we follow them up if they're no better they're allowed to cross over and get the treatment the other 2/3 of the

are there any questions yeah yes that's a really good sure so the question was do you have any rules or guidelines in my institution about how long the procedure can be before you start

talking about anesthesia versus sedation is that right and positioning prone supine we did come up with a guideline with within our department we looked at a little bit of research but honestly was more expert opinion just best

practice and experience I in in general I would say if the procedure is 3 plus hours the patient should know they're going to be on the table not asleep for three plus hours and talk to them about what that means and if they're ok with

that I just think again that comes into setting realistic expectations that's one of the reasons actually that we're very interested in using Dex med otama Dean because that's going to be a better

drug for those longer procedures first was giving functional and versed for four hours it's just not it's not appropriate but you know and some people would say we'll just get an anesthesiologist them but a lot of these

patients are really thick so in our institution anesthesia is just really super regulated and they require all of these clearances for their involvement no matter what they're giving sometimes they'll require all these clearances and

they give exactly what we were going to give so you know it's it's really a juggling act I would say in our department we really just make sure the patient knows what the expectation is and then we'll usually say to the

provider to if if something goes like if anything looks a little concerning during the case we're stopping and they have to be ok with that and they are they really are but that took a lot of work to get everybody on board with that

type of communication yeah we don't know so they I know I think Sloane is anyone here from Sloane no I think Sloane has with dedicated anesthesiologists they work really closely with them and it's easier for

them to get cases scheduled they will give us they will assign us an anesthesiologist for the day but if we don't have any anesthesia cases they get reassigned somewhere in the o.r and it's a different analysis every time it tends

to be the same group some are stricter than others some will have a patient say I really want anesthesia and we can call up the provider and there they say no problem let me do a quick chart review whereas the next day the provider goes

no absolutely not send them for clearances that's a little tricky yeah right so what I showed you is from the american society of anesthesiology i am not affiliated with them at all i just think they bide non anesthesiologist

sedation so i rely heavily on what they say and they recommend waiting till peak effects so i would look at the pharmacokinetics so for versed it's 3 to 5 minutes so i would wait at least 3 minutes before your readmit a stirring I

think a good example with that is when diazepam with the sedative of choice the on the peak effect for diazepam is 1 minute so when midazolam came onto the market there were a lot of adverse outcomes

with patients because providers administering it weren't familiar with the pharmacokinetics and assumed that the peak effect for versed was the same for diazepam so in theory you could give a patient in 5 minutes 5 milligrams of

versed so by the time that fully hits them they could be in a negative 5 on your raft scale so you know just look at those pharmacokinetics look at that peak effect and I would use that to drive your dosing scheme Atlee that's what I

do and I think since we've done that we've seen better meet info cities and better safety outcomes yes okay yeah we don't do that we do one thing with uterine fibroid embolization swear they'll do a superior mesenteric block

but otherwise we don't do any other type of regional blocks but I have read about that I think that's really are the IR providers giving the block okay right I've seen two with uterine fibroid embolization we'll do an epidural in

advance some I think some institutions or some literature exists about that it's interesting it would be interesting if the IR providers could actually give it though I'm not sure if that's kosher in the anesthesia world but they're

certainly qualified to do it they they do already kind of do it really but so I mean that's certainly something interesting and if you have a provider that is comfortable taking that on and their institution I think it's worth

looking at because anything that's sort of I think mixes things up and and provides a different Avenue especially for high-risk patients is worth looking into definitely yes I believe it yeah

mm-hm right so I'll just repeat what she said so just jumping on the talk about blocks so in her institution they the providers to administer blocks and I think you said

coleus estas Tamizh and PTC's and biliary dream placements they'll use that and it will decrease the amount of sedation that's required sedation being versed and fentanyl that's required during the case which like yes like you

said is really great for patients who are already on opioids previously and habit aller ins yes [Music] something right so we again he left same provider though had a patient on Groupon

or Fein and it was our first experience within about a year ago and it was terrible and she did not have realistic expectations going in of how sedated she would be and she was very very unhappy

afterwards so we talked a lot about that and in that guideline I had mentioned that we made about when we involve anesthesia and when we don't there's a caveat about that that says that if a patient is on

methadone or buprenorphine that a discussion needs to take place making them aware that they will probably not feel very sedated but we will try our best and if they're not comfortable with that we reschedule the procedure with

anesthesia but they have to know going into it that they they may not feel completely sedated and we just keep that open and honest communication but we haven't really come up with a scheme of what's best we did actually try with her

we had her come in one day having taken her buprenorphine the day of the procedure and she seemed okay with that and then we tried having her go off of it so that the receptors wouldn't be blocked she was not happy with that

experience so that's really when a person like that probably would do great with propofol but we can't give propofol so you know if the and if the patient tells us no then we just reschedule with the anesthesia

right - hmm right right right you could at least if they're if they're on an opioid uh if they're on people nor Fein then in theory they should respond to the verse said you could go heavier hand it on the

versed just to get them sedated but they will probably still feel pain but it they hopefully won't remember it that's true I you know with the Richmond agitation sedation scale that's not going to fit every patient that's a

really good point I gave a patient seven of versed during an adrenal vein sampling and she was just talking my ear off I got I fed are you okay you know do you need me to give you anything else no no I'm good I'm good and then I wheeled

her out we got her in the recovery area and she goes sit over I said yeah she said wow I don't I don't remember anything the power of her said that that was like a true and music effect I hadn't seen that so strongly in a

patient before but if you if I had done you know I was documenting that she was a zero it looked like I wasn't doing much for her but then I was putting comments you know patient comfortable denying needing any more sedation so

won't fit every patient so it is good to look at that but yeah as far as the buprenorphine I mean it's it's it's tough yeah if they have an addiction specialist I would say talk to them and they might be

able to come up with a scheme that works for them and if there's a lot of pain expected afterwards those patients are gonna have to be on parenteral opioid therapy they'll probably have to stay you know if you're in a hospital they

would have to stay overnight so those are all things you have to consider yeah yes hmm yeah I'm like it so Adam and Alexa are nurse practitioners that we work with and I'm looking at Adam because

this is actually was a very hot topic for us in the last six months so we actually cheat we met with our sedation committee that's run by that in a physiologist who's blocking us from using pres of X and discuss with him

that in the protocol that guides our practice it's said that you did the timeout and then gave sedation but Ari anesthesiologists don't do that right so they intubate the patient and everything and then and they and then the provider

comes in and does the timeout right before the puncture or incision so we talked about to him about how well if we're gonna do the latency to peak effect it's not enough time right so we do now bring the patient in and start

sedation right away our orders are put in in advance I know some by the attending or the Li P so we have a PRN dose and with an a certain number of occurrences and a titrate to a certain Ross scale

yes yeah so and that our anesthesiologist mentions that our providers are present but it's it's a certain use of the language I think it might be like direct observation or immediately available and our providers

are immediately available it's up to your hospital so our profit our providers aren't like down the street on their way in to work with coffee and street clothes and we're sedating they're they're just down the hall maybe

or the way our department looks is we have a control area and it's like the you know the Central Station and you can see all of the rooms so they might be in the Central Station but just haven't gone in to do the time out yet that

being said I always talk to them before I bring the patient in and say what's the goal Rath and I address any concerns that I have and I think people think I'm a little kooky when I do that for every case but it I think it works really well

and I think the providers really like it so we just already start from the Gecko our line of communication I tell them the patient seems really anxious this is my plan what do you think agree disagree yes the procedural if does the procedure

list or the Lak but I've sedated the patient so the patient if you look at what Jayco describes in the universal protocol it's ideal if they can participate in the timeout however not required because then when they do the

timeout they're right there stabbing them with lidocaine so I like to you know I mean I would argue that by starting I would argue about that by starting at the sedation earlier and getting the patient into a comfortable

state you're more safe because you're doing the dosing appropriately according to the a sa yeah correct right right right

okay I think it's important to say though it's not about getting around Joint Commission this is what Joint Commission says you may feel uncomfortable with it and that's okay

but it is what our accrediting body says is okay we're also not intimating the patient and paralyzing them like an Asst the anesthesiologist is now having said that it's not like we walk the patient in and we go oh I think you're mr. Jones

we throw you on the table there is an initial timeout that's done with the nurse and the technologist and the other people in the room shaking his head yes as so the acceptable amount of time after reversal

yes so if it happens if it happens mid procedure you need to it's I believe the language the a sa uses that you have to have a discussion amongst the care team about whether or not you're going to proceed if it happens after the

procedure in the recovery area or it happens mid procedure and you abort then it has to be at least two hours before you discharge that patient or move them back to their unit where they came from because of that recitation effect and

because you can have really adverse effects from sedation like flumazenil can cause serious delirium I had a patient like that one time it was it was awful and it can cause serious cardiac arrhythmia so at least two hours if you

continue with the procedure I would just make sure everyone knows that you have to be really careful with recitation effects and and all of the adverse effects that you'd be looking at yes I think one more question I'm sorry

with hyperkalemia I have come across I want to say it was in perioperative guidelines when I was looking at the labs that we do cuz we do a lot of unnecessary labs in our department you guys might - I feel like we just really

overdo it I believe the perioperative recommendations are to check a serum potassium if the patient has a reason to have hyperkalemia however right if their hyperkalemic and

they develop a cardiac arrhythmia you know could hypoxia also precipitate that cardiac arrhythmia the results from the hyperkalemia maybe I just went in I wouldn't take an ounce

I would I would consider hyperkalemia severe hyperkalemia and unstable patient because that patient could go into a fatal arrhythmia so I would correct that before you bring them into an elective Percy what's often an elective procedure

so if you're doing a fistula gram you know right five point yeah why are we will go up to five point eight we personally will go up to five point eight because a lot of times they're hyperkalemic

because they're fish too less clothes now and we need to open it right so just again it I don't think there's ever going to be any hard and fast data that you see it's all about making sure everyone knows this patient has a serum

potassium of five point eight we're going to be really closely watching the ECG monitoring yeah thank you everyone thank you so much [Applause]

stamp placement we talked a little bit about it I'm gonna talk to you a little

bit more about it and ideal stance is a straight stance that has a nice smooth curve with a portal vein and a nice smooth curve with a bad igneous end well you don't want is it is a tips that T's the sealing of the hepatic vein okay

that closes it okay and if there's a problem in the future it's very difficult to select okay or impossible to select okay you want it nice and smooth with a patek vein and IVC so you can actually get into it and it actually

has a nice hemodynamic outflow the same thing with the portal thing what you don't want is slamming at the floor of the portal vein and teeing that that floor where where it actually portly occludes your shunts okay or gives you a

hard time selecting the portal vein once you're in the tips in any future tips revisions okay other things you need it nice and straight so you do not want long curves new or torqued or kinks in your tips you

a nice aggressive decompressive tips that is nice and straight and opens up the tips shunt okay we talked a little bit you don't want it you don't want to tee the kind of the ceiling of the of the hepatic vein another problem that we

found out you want that tips stance to extend to the hepatic vein IVC Junction you do not want it to fall short of the paddock vein IVC Junction much okay much is usually a centimeter or centimeter and a half is it is acceptable

the problem with hepatic veins and this is the same pathology as the good old graft dialysis grafts what is the common sites of dialysis graft narrowing at the venous anastomosis why for this reason it's the same pathogenesis veins whether

it's in your arm for analysis whether it's in your liver or anywhere are designed for low flow low turbidity flow of the blood okay if you subject a vein of any type to high turbot high velocity flow it reacts by thickening its walls

it reacts by new intimal hyperplasia so if you put a big shunt which increases volume and increased flow turbidity in that area in that appear again the hepatic vein reacts by causing new into our plays you actually get a narrowing

of the Phatak vein right distal to the to the to the Patek venous end of the shunt so you need to take it all the way to the Big C to the IVC okay how much time do I have half an hour huh 17 minutes okay

Viator stents is one way let's say you don't have a variety or stent many countries you don't have a virus then what's an alternative do a barre covered stem combination you put a wall stent and then put a covered stance on the

inside okay so put a wall stent a good old-fashioned you know oldie but a goodie is is a 1094 okay you just put a ten nine four Wahl cent which is the go to walls down so I go to stand for tips before Viator

and then put a cover sentence inside whatever it is it's a could be a fluency it could be a could be a vibe on and and do that so that's another alternative for tips we talked about an ace tips as a central straight tips and it's not out

and fishing out in the periphery okay this is an occlusion with a wall stance this is why we use think this is why now we use stent grafts this is complete occlusion of the tips we're injecting contrast this is not the coral vein this

is actually the Billy retreat visit ptc okay that's a big Billy leaked into the into the tips okay and that's why we use covered stance I'm gonna move forward on this in early and early and experienced

quick I did want to mention t-carr briefly and try to get you guys closer to back on time this is a hybrid procedure this is combining the surgical procedure we talked about first and carotid stenting it takes combined

carotid exposure at the base of the clavicle or just above the clavicle and reverses blood flow just like we talked about but tastes slightly different technique or approach to doing this and then you put the stent in from a drug

carotid access here's the components of the device right up by the neck there is where the incision is made just above the clavicle and you have this sheet that's about eight French in size that only goes in about us to 2 cm or 1 and a

half cm overall into the vessel and then that sheath is sutured to the the chest wall and then it's got a side arm that goes what's labeled number six here is this flow reversal urn enroute neuroprotection kit it reverses the

blood flow and then you get a femoral sheath in the vein right in the common femoral vein and you reverse the blood flow so this is a case a picture from our institution up on the right is the patient's neck and that's the carotid

exposure and the initial sheath is in place so the sidearm of that sheath is the enroute protection system which is going up up at the top of the image there we're gonna back bleed that let that sidearm of that sheath continue to

bleed up to the very top and then connect that to the common femoral venous sheet that we have in place there's a stepwise of that and then ultimately what we see at the end of the procedure is that filter inside that

little canister can be interrogated after and you can see the debris this is in the box D here on the bottom left the debris that we captured during the flow reversal and this is a what we call a passive and then active flow reversal

system so once the system is in place the direct exposure carotid sheath in place the flow controller and AV shunt in place you see the direction of blood flow so now all that blood flow in that common carotid artery is going reverse

direction and so when you place a sheath or wire and and ultimately through that sheath up by the carotid artery there's no risk for distal embolization because everything is flowing in Reverse here's a couple

case examples ferns from our institution this is a patient who had a symptomatic critical greater than 90% stenosis has tandems to nose he's so one proximal at the origin and one a little bit more distal we you can see the little

retractors down at the base of the image there in the sheath that's essentially the extent of the sheath from the bottom of that image into the vessel only about a cm or two post angioplasty instant patient tolerated that quite well here's

another 71 year-old asymptomatic patient greater than 90% stenosis pretty calcified lesion a little more extensive than maybe with the CT shows there's the angiography and then ultimately a post stent placement using the embolic

protection device and overall the trials have shown good good safety met profile overall compared to carotid surgery so it's a minimum minimal exposure not nearly as large the risk of stroke is less because you're not mucking around

up there you're using the best of a low profile system with flow reversal albeit with a mini surgical exposure overall we've actually have an abstract or post trip this year's meeting this is just a snapshot of that you can check it out

this is our one year experience we've had comparable low complication rates overall in our experience so in summary

so this is our MGH page we started it about a year ago check it out if you guys like it some pretty good cases we mostly post cases some policy stuff industry and changing things it's not purely cases but certainly take a look if you like it give us a follow so what

I have today is I have two cases that I picked and you know for all the thousands of cases that all these huge academic medical centers do I tried to pick a couple that might be a little interesting and that aren't being done

in all the different centers across the institution so I'll start off with the first which is an endovascular AVF creation so what's nice about this is that you know what we see so far from this is that the length of stay impact

has been certainly reduced in certainly the maturation times and the Rhian turn re intervention rates have been reduced so I'll go through this and normally wouldn't go step by step for a few things but I think you know not all

institutions are doing this yet I think that you will I do think this is going to be a shift for a lot of the dialysis patients and everybody who works anion knows what a huge impact it is the ESRD patients is just astronomical the

numbers of them it's just continuing to rise so procedural steps the first step is you're going to access the brachial vein advance the guide Y down to the ulna insert a six French sheath and perform a vena Graham and the rationale

for that of course is to make sure you don't have any issues centrally some centers do that in advance some centers don't I will mention also that the ultrasound mapping is absolutely critical to make sure that

you get the right patient you start off by seeing them in the outpatient clinic and then you're going to go and have them have vascular ultrasound to make sure you have a good candidate so the next is you're gonna access the brachial

artery same thing advance your guide wire down to the ulna from there you're gonna insert the venous side now this is one of two approved vendors that will allow you to do an endovascular creation this was a wave link it's a to stick

system and it requires two catheters which is why you see the next step is pretty much repeated but just flipping it to the arterial side so from there there's a magnetic zone it actually has like a little canoe so it's got a

backing of a ceramic sort of a space there if you can think of sort of the older or atherectomy cut home catheters that had that little carro canoe you would actually take the debris out it's very

look into that and I'll show you that in a couple of images once you align that you're gonna sort of engage the little electrode this is an RF ablation RF created type fistula so it creates a little slit between the Adri and the

vein and what happens is is that you know of course don't forget you have to ground the patient just like any RF once you get the magnets and you get the electrode alignment you're going to engage the device for two seconds and

the fistula is created and then from there a lot of centers are actually going in there embolize in one of the brachial veins and this is basically to sum some of that stuff obviously to the superficial system for draining I have

read that there are a few places that actually go back back in through the newly-created fistula like even at the time of the procedure with the 4 millimeter balloon and just sort of open that up I'm not sure that that's 100%

necessary but I'm sure all these fine people on the panel could help us with that so here you see and I skipped all the entry steps but here you can see the Venus in the arterial catheter you know in position here and there's that little

canoe thing pointed out by the arrow that I had talked about and you use fluoro to sort of align these two things when you first start doing these cases take your time the first one was over an hour and a half for us now obviously

it's about a third at that time this is the little electrode this is when it's advanced and pretty much ready to engage can you play the video for me so this is quick so what happens is you suppress the

device the electrode actually advances and as it advances towards the veena side what happens is is that it actually just creates this fistula through the RF sort of energy from there you're gonna do a post vena graph in here you can see

after we did an initial post intagram there was enough sort of flow between the PIAT brachial so we decided to embolize one and this patient was our first patient and is doing very well so far this is done on I'm gonna say just

because you know to dr. brains point I don't want to get on the hook for certain dates and patient identification but this was done in mid-march so we saw them two weeks out and we're gonna see them again another couple weeks so just

there's a couple of trials that you can read into one is the neat one is the flex trial I think the technical success is really promising at 96% the maturation days you can see there's a massive massive comparison where they

could be ready to be dialyzed in 60 days and this could be a game-changer for many patients the six-month patency rate is what I've seen in most of the reports it's around 98% compared to about 50% with the surgical place and then you can

see that this about 3.5 interactions or re interventions that are required in about 0.5 at a year's time out from this so it's really making a big difference for these patients and I think this is what we do in i/o we continue advanced

things innovate and obviously look to do things in a more timely cost-effective minimally invasive way at the beginning when these new procedures come out the devices themselves might be at a higher price point but we'll see how that goes

moving forward as more and more vendors get into the space so the second case

interrupting something else getting back

to a paddock with angiography something that we're starting to look at the group at University of Pennsylvania has a publication out on this as well I looked at the liver lymphatics certainly the livers where we produce a

lot of protein it goes through the lymphatics to be returned to the circulation in patients who have heart failure they tend to have increased lymphatic flow in the liver and they think that protein lost in enteropathy

protein losing a property happens when the liver lymphatic leaks into the intestines just some images from their article you see them looking at the hepatic lymphatics there and once they had a needle in the hepatic lymphatics

they actually put her scope in and they injected blue dye and as a proof-of-concept they saw the blue dye leaking into the intestine so now that they see that the blue dye leaking the intestine they say well we can embolize

that they embolize it with some glue and that's what it looked like at the end and then the algorithm levels and all these patients return to near normal so a new a new frontier and lymphatic intervention so just to summarize

lymphatic imaging the current status you know we have very effective non-invasive as well as in vases imaging in the peripheral and central lymphatics we certainly need to this allows for improved diagnosis and once we have

these diagnostic capabilities we were able to come up with these novel treatments for these diseases that were previously untreatable we still don't have good ways to consistently visualize the paddocks invasively and then and

non-invasively it would be great to be able to see that hepatic and intestine lymphatics cuz that's 80% of lymphatic flow so if we can find a way to image these under mr it could be a game-changer for a lot of diseases in

terms of lymphatic interventions Calla thorax interventions greater than 90% effective technical knowledge you know when I was a trainee was really centered to just a few major medical centers now it's defusing out to more places we've

certainly shown as a proof of concept the plastic bronchitis lymphatic flow disorders cattle societies and protein losing enteropathy are all treatable and we're getting emerging experience so don't be surprised if you start to see

more requests for this more patients at your centers these are uncommon disorders that's not to say that you still won't see them every once in a while the role of lymphatics in pathophysiology is still being studied

particularly in terms of heart failure transplant as well as in different cancers in the spread one of the cool stuff that we're looking at right now is actually sampling different lymphatic fluid in different areas of the body

trying to see how the different cancers may spread and/or possibilities in immunology immuno oncology thank you guys and just something I noticed a couple weeks ago in jeopardy clear body lymph continuing white blood cells body

fluid and you guys know what is limp that's your answer so thank you saying thank you to the avir committee and it's been a pleasure [Applause]

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