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High Intensity Usage Of Statins Periop And Periprocedurally Decreases Amputation And Death Rates In CTLI Patients: What Dosage And When
High Intensity Usage Of Statins Periop And Periprocedurally Decreases Amputation And Death Rates In CTLI Patients: What Dosage And When
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Malignant Biliary Strictures | Biliary Intervention
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Vascular Disease | CLI: Cause and Diagnosis
Vascular Disease | CLI: Cause and Diagnosis
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Endovascular AVF creation | Twitter Case Files SIR 2019
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Overview of PAD & CLI | CLI: Cause and Diagnosis
Overview of PAD & CLI | CLI: Cause and Diagnosis
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PAD/CLI Diagnosis | CLI: Cause and Diagnosis
PAD/CLI Diagnosis | CLI: Cause and Diagnosis
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Carotid Artery Stenting- Case | Carotid Interventions: CAE, CAS, & TCAR
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Treatment Options- Medical Management | Carotid Interventions: CAE, CAS, & TCAR
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Claudication vs CLI | CLI: Cause and Diagnosis
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Transcript

- Okay, so I never knew that there was so much controversy about statins this weekend, but I love this cartoon. "We found a bunch of these clogging your arteries. They're cholesterol pills." So statins in CLI. There's extensive evidence of statins lowering

cardiovascular events and mortality, however many studies do not necessarily differentiate between symptomatic PAD and CLI. The use of statins in patients undergoing revascularization is clearly recommended. They may reduce the need for revascularization

and my improve the outcomes. Reduction in amputation rates has not been consistently shown. So what about statins and mortality in PAD patients? Well, here's a randomized study from 2004, clearly showing that short-term treatment

with atorvastatin reduced the incidence of major adverse cardiovascular events. Another study from Dr. Schanzer in 2008, this one really concentrating on critical limb ischemia patients, showing that statin use was associated with improved

survival after revascularization. The DECREASE study in 2009, another randomized study again showing markedly improved perioperative outcome in vascular surgery patients. A study from the JVS in Vascular Medicine in 2014

noted significant difference in amputation-free survival survival in patients who presented with CLI in their study. And finally, in 2015 in the JVS, the study's showing that statin therapy after infrainguinal bypass surgery specifically for critical limb ischemia was associated and proved that five-year survival.

And here are the Kaplan-Meier curves from that study. What about limb and revascularization related outcomes? Well here again, there is an enormous amount of data to talk about. This study in 2004 showed that statin therapy was associated with improved patency of

autogenous inguinal bypass grafts, the risk of graft failure was 3.2-fold higher in the control group. And you can see here the Kaplin Kaplan-Meier curves from that study. Another study again, concentrating on specifically

critical limb ischemia, a retrospective review of 646 patients, and at 24 months, the statin-treated group had higher rates of primary patency, secondary patency, limb salvage and overall survival. You can see her the curves for primary patency, secondary patency and limb salvage

which were all significant. Over here, using multivariate regression, the odds ratio for statin use with the limb salvage was quite high. Dr. Voglin, circulation in 2013, studied the Medicare database as we've previously seen

and this included all patients with different types of PVD. And the conclusion here was that preoperative statins were again associated with improved one year limb salvage after revascularization. This was better for the diagnosis of claudication and rest pain or ulceration or gangrene.

The REACH Registry Symptomatic PAD in 58 hundred patients, noted 18% lower rates of adverse limb outcomes. And they suggested that statins clearly favorably affect limb prognosis. I may skip to the most current studies. There have been several large studies on this,

just published this last year. The study in Germany on patients with critical limb ischemia, showed that statins were clearly associated with improved amputation-free survival after both endovascular therapy and bypass for critical limb ischemia. But, they were not associated with raw amputation rates.

So again, amputation-free survival, but not limb salvage rates. A large study from Japan in patients with diabetes and peripheral artery disease, perhaps our most difficult group of patients did show that statins

were associated with decreased primary lower-extremity amputation. And finally, this large study from the Journal of the American Heart Association this year, showed that high intensity statin therapy was associated with both improved survival and decreased major adverse

cardiovascular event rates. So, many of you have seen this slide this week. This is hot off the press from the American Heart last week from the FOURIER Trial with PCSK9 inhibitors. This is obviously not statins, but I think this drums home the point with LDL lowering therapies.

And this is really the key slide. This study clearly showed that major adverse limb events in patients with known and without known PAD, were markedly reduced in patients with PCSK9 inhibitors. So in conclusion, statins or I will say lowering of the LDL, clearly reduces cardiovascular event rates and mortality

in patients with PAD. Statins and lowering of the LDL will very likely reduce the rates of major adverse limb events. Our patients with PAD and CLI should be treated as the highest risk patients and placed on maximum anti-lipid therapy and these medications should be continued

throughout the perioperative or periprocedural period. Thank you for your attention.

massive PE well let's remember this at this point including all the trials that preceded the pytho trial almost 1 700 patients have been randomized into systemic lytic trials for some massive p yep all we have on the CDT side is the

ultimate trial of 59 patients non-us single was a single trial that's where this initiative is coming from to improve the data this trial called P track and I have preliminary information that we just made our first breakthrough

in fronting from the NIH so very excited that we have a planning grant to potentially get this thing moving so P tract is basically designed to be a randomized control trial of catheter directed therapy versus no catheter

directed therapy for sub massive PE to really try to answer this question just like the pytho trial tried to do for systemic thrombolysis in the setting of catheter Ida thrombolysis and this time we're not just using surrogate endpoints

we're not you the rvw ratio is probably not even gonna be calculated but what we want to know are these are patients doing better in one arm or the other and we're going to use outcomes that are important to both patients and providers

400 to 500 patients most likely looking at sites all across the so but we are still in this time when

physiology knowing that we want to measure true ventilation let's kind of dive deeper into the equipment issues so looking at some studies here this is a

study that compared the different techniques for interfacing capnography with adult and pediatric supplemental oxygen masks in really the main finding of this study was regardless of the measuring device that was used this

signal for the of the entitled carbon side it varies as the oxygen concentration varies especially in very high levels so levels and adults that are less than 15 if you have a good location of your sampling you're going

to get a pretty accurate sample of your carbon dioxide but what this study found is an extremely high flow rates and that's adults greater than 15 liters per minute and in Pediatrics greater than 8 liters per minute that's when you're

gonna start to see some data quality decrease and I'm gonna tell you a little secret if you have an adult that's on 15 liters per minute and you're having oxygenation issues your problems are bigger than that okay no one should

really be on that much oxygen right you know there's a certain point where you have to change the ventilation or maybe they have a perfusion mismatch or they need peep or they need some other physiologic intervention camp Nagato

masks they provide really stable measurements without significantly breathing with commonly used oxygen flows and these are capnography masks that were designed for that not the rigged up ones that we sometimes you'll

have creatively used in the past and because and if you've seen some of the masks coming by some of because of the open design the carbon dioxide measured with the High Flow oxygen rates if we need to use higher flow rates you make

it artificially lower readings a greater again greater than 15 liters per minute and they may not reflect adequately like that gradient may be much bigger than compared with lower flows so using a standard o2 mask the one we pick up off

the shelf in combination with our you know nasal oral scope monitor can provide us with really good monitoring because it's going to be right close to the patient where they're exhaling but you have to watch the risk of patients

rebreathing okay so this is a little bit of a change in practice because we've recommended this for a long time now you put your sampling line on you use your regular oxygen but just by doing these studies we've found that

patients are rebreathing carbon dioxide more than we thought just something to be aware of you're looking at your baseline and if your monitor is calibrated appropriately and I've been doing

for 15 years and I've never seen a Capon ography monitor you know when you turn it on and it calibrates itself where the baseline was not zero okay so usually it's something related to the patient rebreathing and such so again food for

thought this is just the comparisons okay so when we have patients that are breathing I know it's a little hard to see from the back so we're comparing the end tidal co2 concentration between devices and at our supplemental oxygen

rates as we're going up on our flow rates so with patients that were normal ventilating their co2 on a blood gas was 39:39 on the monitor so very very little change and that's actually true for the cap one mask the oxy mask and the

different capital lines that's what they looked at they looked at for when they went up to five liters per minute 38 plus or minus point five 38 plus or minus point seven and then no change for the capital line the two different

capital lines so again nothing's statistically significant as far as using five liters per minute and same thing with ten liters per minute with normal ventilation really no change in the monitoring from no oxygen to oxygen

where you start to see some changes in normal ventilation with using all four of those the cap one the oxy mask and the capital lines very very little difference even at 20 but when you looked at the regular oxygen mask that

wasn't designed for it that's when you see the statistic differences and certainly the same goes true for patients who are a hypoventilating and hyperventilating to using the proper equipment again with normal flows and

even higher flows you really don't see a whole lot of changes and this is just a this in a graphical form here so we have patients with a simple mask on the first column cap one and then the oxy mask and you can see the simple mask between no

flow and flow there's a difference in our siege of co2 readings where the cap one and the oxy mask not as much of a difference right and then the same things when we I'm sorry I'm the right when we

turn the oxygen on and the flow rates go up minimal difference in the concentration that we're monitoring there so careful attention to positioning the mask where the mask is located on the patient the inspired

concentration of carbon dioxide and the waveform itself right the quality of the waveform should be looked at very carefully and then looking at the location the gas sampling should be right over where the patient is exhaling

right you want to avoid having any distance between the two of those which I know can be a challenge in the environments that you're working in so

PE the first one of course is

anticoagulation so heparin and bridging the patient to coumadin or now aid a direct oral anticoagulant is really the mainstay of treatment most patients again 55 percent of patients with PE have low risk PE all of those patients

should be on according to the chest guidelines three months of anticoagulation so they're gonna get heparin as an inpatient if they even need it and they're gonna get sent home on lovenox bridge to coumadin or they're

gonna get the one of the new drugs like Xarelto or Eliquis but here's all the other things that we do so these patients that are in the intermediate high risk so I'm gonna try to keep saying those terms to try to kind of put

that in everyone's brain because I think the massive and sub massive PE is what everyone used to talk about but we want to keep up with our colleagues in cardiology who are using the correct terminology we're gonna say high risk

and an intermediate but in those patients - intermediate high risk or Matt or the high risk PE patients we're gonna be treating them with systemic thrombolysis catheter directed thrombolysis ultrasound assisted

thrombolysis and maybe some real lytic and elected me or thrombectomy there's other techniques that we can use for one-time removal of clot like rotational and electa me suction thrombus fragmentation and then of course

surgical mblaq t'me so when anticoagulation is not enough so I like to show this slide because it shows the difference between anticoagulation and thrombolysis they are very different and sometimes I think everybody in this room

understands the difference but I think our referring providers don't and so when we when we get consulted and we recommend anticoagulation they're like yeah TPA well that's not the right thing so anticoagulation stops the clotting

process so when you start a patient on a heparin drip they should theoretically no longer before new thrombus on that thrombus so when you have thrombus in a vessel you get a cannon you get a snowball effect more

and more thrombus is gonna want to form heparin stops that TPA however for thrombolysis actually reverses the clouding process so that tissue plasminogen activator or streptokinase or uro kindness will actually dissolve

clot so there you're stopping new clot forming versus actually dissolving clot anticoagulation allows for natural thrombolysis so your body has its own TPA and so when you put a patient on heparin you're allowing your natural

body defenses to work you're giving it more time TPA accelerates that process so you give TPA either systemically or through a catheter you're really speeding up that process anticoagulation on its own has a

lower bleeding risk you're putting a patient on heparin or Combe it in it's it is less but it is still real thrombolysis however is a very very high bleeding risk patients when I when I consult a patient for thrombolysis I

tell them that we are about to do give them the absolute strongest blood clot thinning agent or an reversal agent which is the TPA and we're gonna just run it through your veins for hours and hours

um and that sort of gives them an idea of what we're doing anticoagulation in and of itself is really not invasive you just give it through an IV or even a pill thrombolysis however is given definitely through an IV through

systemic means and a large volume there thereafter or catheter directed so again

possible even though the you know strictures actually most likely are related to the malignant frequently in large centers like the Asura actually we see more benign strictures and malignant

strictures mainly because of the post-operative and perioperative complications so strictly speaking the incidence of reduced riches is actually flipped sometimes though we do actually have to help and some more patients now

particularly in the GI Sims I think in the ten last ten years GI now places metal stents almost routinely there's almost there are people still placing skinny in those things are two plastic calibers things

but the advent of retrievable removable metal stents has really changed and so now we will place dancing much frequently in that the wall stent is actually the pre derivative of the wall flex which is the Justin that can be

removed it's got a little barb that removes it and it's what they will do is retrograde put these up and then six weeks later or even up to nine months go in and retrieve it and pull them out completely so they certainly and the

number of build with stains placement in G and IR is reduced somewhat because how aggressive gr has become but certainly will place these and particularly patients who are in the palliative stages of care and although these

applications we've used in many other ways so your goal is to get the same team this just happens to be a patient with unresectable head of pancreas cancer you can see the obstruction in the distal CBD just below the cystic

duct there's non pacified area you can see on the calendar gram as well as the celiac artery gram you can see how the portal vein sensor strictures of his patients unresectable will go in there in place

that metal stent you first place your guide why follow that up with a stent that cross bridges from open to open and open this up and we use stands between eight and ten millimeters in diameter and nowadays even covering the

cystic duct is not such a big deal and nowadays cupboards things are probably more in favor now even though the data the data actually doesn't support covering over uncovered and the data for both is actually extremely marked be

similar and it's not compelling and because of the price difference I think visit again a probably a swing back to I'm not standing every CPD stains with covered stands but no question at least from operators point of view in my point

of view it makes whole wholehearted sense to allow the tumor no interest disease to grow through but yet the outcome is still not clear that it's a favorable and cost-effective to do covered stains entirely and we actually

will place up to three drains sometimes you have these complex cancer patients with multiple strictures where almost all the segments are excluding in a extremely sick or they need their bilirubin's to come down for four to be

eligible for cut medical oncology chemotherapy and this is the selling of metastatic colorectal cancer and so that will put three up to three tubes in the right lobe before will give up and say that there's not much more decompression

we can achieve so four tiers is that probably the maximum will place in for multiple site so like I said you know malignant brutally strictures and this data and I'm not going to because it's sort of a moving target

when Gore came with the first covered stand purely because of the fabric that they have gore-tex like what's under jacket and clothing and was interesting it's one of the most improbable fabrics and the reasons why Bill Lewis stands

accrued is not so much that it's overgrowth of tumor but the in growth of bio and in growth of bacteria actually will cause a non-covered stain suit include earlier so the advent of gore and making a stent that made a big

difference and it's covered same it does to change quickly the ease at which patients could be stent in the new system so when they came on the market was really helpful and there's just example of how you can go from occlusion

all the way to having natural passage about now back into the small bar and the utility and the importance of bile salts power fluid in your GI tract is critical for absorption in almost all your metabolic

function so having this drain out externally is really not advisable so getting a natural pathway flow of bio into the GI system is extremely important but I believe strictures and

problem so first of all as you know all vascular disease is related in other words coronary artery disease is related

to cerebral vascular disease is related to lower extremity or peripheral artery disease they're all intertwined okay that's why a lot of our patients that we see for peripheral t disease have a sternotomy score or a coronary stent or

have had strokes I will remind you that cardiovascular disease is the number one cause of death in the u.s. for both men and women to this day we still hear vascular disease is an old man's disease that is BS it is the number one cause of

death in women in the United States

so this is our MGH page we started it about a year ago check it out if you guys like it some pretty good cases we mostly post cases some policy stuff industry and changing things it's not purely cases but certainly take a look if you like it give us a follow so what

I have today is I have two cases that I picked and you know for all the thousands of cases that all these huge academic medical centers do I tried to pick a couple that might be a little interesting and that aren't being done

in all the different centers across the institution so I'll start off with the first which is an endovascular AVF creation so what's nice about this is that you know what we see so far from this is that the length of stay impact

has been certainly reduced in certainly the maturation times and the Rhian turn re intervention rates have been reduced so I'll go through this and normally wouldn't go step by step for a few things but I think you know not all

institutions are doing this yet I think that you will I do think this is going to be a shift for a lot of the dialysis patients and everybody who works anion knows what a huge impact it is the ESRD patients is just astronomical the

numbers of them it's just continuing to rise so procedural steps the first step is you're going to access the brachial vein advance the guide Y down to the ulna insert a six French sheath and perform a vena Graham and the rationale

for that of course is to make sure you don't have any issues centrally some centers do that in advance some centers don't I will mention also that the ultrasound mapping is absolutely critical to make sure that

you get the right patient you start off by seeing them in the outpatient clinic and then you're going to go and have them have vascular ultrasound to make sure you have a good candidate so the next is you're gonna access the brachial

artery same thing advance your guide wire down to the ulna from there you're gonna insert the venous side now this is one of two approved vendors that will allow you to do an endovascular creation this was a wave link it's a to stick

system and it requires two catheters which is why you see the next step is pretty much repeated but just flipping it to the arterial side so from there there's a magnetic zone it actually has like a little canoe so it's got a

backing of a ceramic sort of a space there if you can think of sort of the older or atherectomy cut home catheters that had that little carro canoe you would actually take the debris out it's very

look into that and I'll show you that in a couple of images once you align that you're gonna sort of engage the little electrode this is an RF ablation RF created type fistula so it creates a little slit between the Adri and the

vein and what happens is is that you know of course don't forget you have to ground the patient just like any RF once you get the magnets and you get the electrode alignment you're going to engage the device for two seconds and

the fistula is created and then from there a lot of centers are actually going in there embolize in one of the brachial veins and this is basically to sum some of that stuff obviously to the superficial system for draining I have

read that there are a few places that actually go back back in through the newly-created fistula like even at the time of the procedure with the 4 millimeter balloon and just sort of open that up I'm not sure that that's 100%

necessary but I'm sure all these fine people on the panel could help us with that so here you see and I skipped all the entry steps but here you can see the Venus in the arterial catheter you know in position here and there's that little

canoe thing pointed out by the arrow that I had talked about and you use fluoro to sort of align these two things when you first start doing these cases take your time the first one was over an hour and a half for us now obviously

it's about a third at that time this is the little electrode this is when it's advanced and pretty much ready to engage can you play the video for me so this is quick so what happens is you suppress the

device the electrode actually advances and as it advances towards the veena side what happens is is that it actually just creates this fistula through the RF sort of energy from there you're gonna do a post vena graph in here you can see

after we did an initial post intagram there was enough sort of flow between the PIAT brachial so we decided to embolize one and this patient was our first patient and is doing very well so far this is done on I'm gonna say just

because you know to dr. brains point I don't want to get on the hook for certain dates and patient identification but this was done in mid-march so we saw them two weeks out and we're gonna see them again another couple weeks so just

there's a couple of trials that you can read into one is the neat one is the flex trial I think the technical success is really promising at 96% the maturation days you can see there's a massive massive comparison where they

could be ready to be dialyzed in 60 days and this could be a game-changer for many patients the six-month patency rate is what I've seen in most of the reports it's around 98% compared to about 50% with the surgical place and then you can

see that this about 3.5 interactions or re interventions that are required in about 0.5 at a year's time out from this so it's really making a big difference for these patients and I think this is what we do in i/o we continue advanced

things innovate and obviously look to do things in a more timely cost-effective minimally invasive way at the beginning when these new procedures come out the devices themselves might be at a higher price point but we'll see how that goes

moving forward as more and more vendors get into the space so the second case

peripheral artery disease affects up to 12 million peopl amputations occur yearly do a peripheral artery disease specifically critical

limb ischemia that is almost certainly way more than should be done up to two million people have critical limb ischemia so how do patients present when they have PA d in general okay there's really one of two presentations general

categories the first thing is intermittent claudication so Claude occation means I walk and I get pain okay when I stop walking the pain goes away you also have critical limb ischemia

which we call CLI CLI is such severe peripheral artery disease that you actually a foot and leg pain at rest in other words your blood flow is so bad that even at rest you don't have enough perfusion to go to

your foot and you have a scheming pain or your blood flow is so bad that you can't heal a sore or an ulcer okay so forget walking these are the this is the most severe form of peripheral artery disease

okay so again Kumar mentioned this before peripheral artery disease is like a highway if you and I say this a million times a day my pas are so sick of hearing it if you block a highway traffic can't get through and so it has

to go through detours when you go through detours you're always slower things are never as efficient and you back up that's exactly what happens here plaque builds up in the artery blood flow can't get through and so you can't

get to where you're going there's the highway analogy a key point and again I hear this all the time you know the patient came in with a wound but it's weird they never had claudication so maybe this isn't arterial wrong

intermittent claudication does not need to come before critical limb ischemia in other words many patients their first presentation is critical of ischemia so they'll never know that PA D they never have what you know pain when they walk

their first presentation is a potentially severe morbid and mortal one so what are the risks factors for PID it's everything we think about smoking obviously is a big one high blood pressure cholesterol diabetes obesity

physical activity well there's other risk factors family history and age so my question is what's the difference between these two risk factors what there's been these risk factors and these risk factors

one is changeable the other is not as much as we try with Botox or Juvederm or whatever it is we can't change our age and as much as we try we can't change our family history but we can change smoking and cholesterol and do all the

things that we can do and it's not easy but it can be done I will say a special

of critical of ischemia well a lot of times it starts in our office with a physical examination so we do a risk

factor assessment and this is what happens before they get on our table with with everyone in this room and us seeing the patient assessment of intermittent claudication and it can be subtle many patients don't come in and

say oh yeah I have pain when I walk for a short time and then it I rest and it goes away a lot of times it's yeah you know my leg gives out or now it doesn't hurt it's kind of this weird feeling when I walk and it these atypical

symptoms and then obviously if they have a wound you have to a wound evaluation on physical examination things we're looking for feeling a pulse you'll be surprised how many primary care providers never feel a pulse and if we

say if you feel a pulse you may save a life because you may be the first one to say hey this patient doesn't have a pulse maybe they have got peripheral artery disease and if they prefer order these maybe have coronary artery disease

and maybe they should we start on aspirin or statin and save them from a heart attack and stroke and so you really can save a life abnormal capillary refill so in other words you've got such bad blood flow

that if you smush on their foot it takes a long time for that blood to come back because they have such poor perfusion there's something a Peugeot stess TWEN that if you lift their leg gravity alone pushes their blood isn't it overcomes

the force of blood and so there are foot becomes power becomes losing some color and then when you put them down it dilates and you get sort of this ruborous red color so that's a burger sign I just had a good example in clinic

about a week or two ago so what do we ask for patients do of any pain or discomfort in the leg thigh or butt with walking your exercise I will sell you tell you I often don't use the word pain because everyone thinks pain is

different so so some people say well it's not paying it's a key lake ease pain to me I'm a guy everything's pain to me right low low threshold but discomfort is a good way of asking it foot or toe pain

that disturbs your sleep do you have any skin ulcers or sores on your ankles feet or toes I think it's very important to know what kind of patient you're talking to in terms of Education level or in terms of just language so some patients

don't know what it all sir is and they use the term sore some people don't know what a sore is they used term wound and so just sort of you ask things different ways I think is really important when we all talk to our patients and again a lot

of classic history will miss a large majority of PAE because patients don't read the textbook the one thing I'll say is I hear this all the time well the patient had pulses and so they don't have P ad that is hashtag false and the

reason is pulse exam is insensitive so in other words even if you feel pulses they can still have peripheral artery disease okay now if you don't feel pulses they certainly have peripheral artery disease or you're just terrible

at it PID classification the way we talk about patients with PA D we use a classification scale called Rutherford it may come up so in other words patient who has PA D but asymptomatic is

Rutherford zero a patient who has got major tissue loss and is basically 1 for amputation is Rutherford 6 and then everything in between is sort of a gradation we cut off 3 to 4 so 3 is claudication pain only 4 is critical in

ischemia rest pain alright so rather for classification when we talk about wounds you may see this you don't need to go in details but there's a Wi-Fi classification that sort of Germans how bad is the ulcer and how likely are you

to to lose your leg it's sort of a prognostic I will remind you that in medicine there's differentials for everything in other words the patient comes to you with pain or you talk to your friend or whatever with pain

there's a lot of things in cause pain it could be back pain arthritis infection DVT so there's things we have to think about when I was in medical school I sort of loved this my OB GaN professor said when he sees a patient the first

thing he does is say what do I think this patient have if this were a man because you get so pigeon-holed in your specialty every patient we see as well must be vas here must be vas care but you've got to take a step back and say

okay well am I missing something maybe it's arthritis may something else so don't get pigeonholed by your own prejudices which is a good life lesson in general there's also a differential for wounds so obviously

when we see a wound we could have arterial arterial tends to be sort of the toes and distal foot it can be severe pain if you see an ulcer around the ankle that tends to be more venous so vein related which again we

can treat and then a common cause is neuropathic so if you see I'm sort of at the pressure points where people walk a lot of times patient diabetes will step on something and where you and I would be like oh man that hurts

I better oh my god I have a wound there I better check that out they'll never know because they don't feel their feet and so they could have this monster ulcer and finally someone inspects their feet and says you know you have like a

golf ball sized hole in your foot and that's the first time they ever notice it so how do we test ever for peripheral artery disease well a lot of it is non-invasive now we do a B is a b is is a measure of blood pressure in the foot

or leg we can do some ultrasound to actually look at the artery and obviously we can do CT and MRI when we look at ultrasound you may look at this every once a while this is a normal ultrasound Doppler waveform where we've

got good blood flow up down and back three now the reason that's important is that correlates the sounds so if you listen to a artery i'ma do my best Doppler impression out okay a normal artery goes once you start getting

peripheral artery disease you lose that triphasic waveform it becomes biphasic when you get severe peripheral artery disease you lose that biphasic waveform it becomes monophasic and when you have nothing it becomes

okay so here's want to be alert to that so ankle brachial index is important and it's helpful again some patients who have calcific us a-- fication it's not helpful for I will tell you a B eyes alone actually not only do they predict

PA D they predict death that's how important PA D is link to mortality CT and MRI is very useful you can see here we can see a good anatomic description of the arteries unfortunately patients with calcium

sometimes we can't see as well because the calcium is so bright on CT scan that it obscures the lumen so we have other problems in patients with diabetes and heavy calcification and a lot of those patients just need to go to angiogram

and as you know my techs and nurses know sometimes rarely but sometimes we do an angiogram and it's normal and we say or there's mild disease we say okay perfect we've taken that off the table we need to move on when some of these

non-invasive testings aren't as clear so alright so in summary critical of ischemia is a morbid disease and can be the first presentation of PA d clinical suspicion and accurate diagnosis is essential for early diagnosis and

treatment and a multidisciplinary team that includes vascular venture loss who know critical limb ischemia not just the SFA and iliac artery jockeys and wound care specialists do decrease amputation rates I like this quote it's not mine

but I'm going to steal it with impunity amputation is not a treatment option it is a treatment failure okay so we have to keep that in mind I appreciate everyone's attention because we can save questions to the end or you do it now if

there's pressing I think we may need new batteries or my thumb's weak which is also a possibility any questions

are in the room here's a case of an 80

year old with a previous mi had a left hand are directing me and it's gonna go for a coronary bypass graft but they want this carotid stenting significant card accenting lesion to be treated first there's the non-invasive blow

through this but there's the lesion had a prior carotid endarterectomy so had that surgery we talked about first but at the proximal and distal ends of that patch has now a stone osis from the surgical fix that's developed so we

don't want to go back in surgically that's a high resolution we want for a transfer Merle approach and from there here's what it looks like an geographically mimics what we saw on the CT scan you can see the the marker and

the external carotid artery on the right that's the distal balloon and then proximally in the common carotid artery and they're noted there and then when you inflate the balloons you can see them inflated in the second image in the

non DSA image that's the external carotid room carotid artery balloon that's very proximal the common carotid balloon is below or obscured by the shoulders and ultimately when you inflate the common carotid balloon you

just have stagnant blood flow then we treat them you can see both balloons now and the external carotid and common carotid in place we have our angioplasty balloon across the lesion and then ultimately a stent and this is what it

looked like before this is what it looks like after and tolerated this quite well and we never had risk of putting the patient for dis Lombok protection or to salamba lusts overall I'm not gonna go over this real

here are the treatment options and I did want to include a fourth one it says nothing about the intervention per se but it's medical management which was actually had the significant growth over the last decade and really more

aggressive medical management every treatment below this should have medical management included as part of it so I included that first that's critical if you're gonna have a carotid endarterectomy if that's what ultimately

your your physician decides then you should still have medical management before and after carotid artery stenting and then ultimately trans carotid artery stenting so carotid endarterectomy I'll show you a case example but this is a

diagram illustrating what's ultimately done that longitudinal incision and then removal of that plaque this is what the plaque looks like when it comes out as opposed to carotid artery stenting which is less invasive obviously and we place

a stent but we don't actually remove the plaque overall you know you know we can talk about why that's okay in fact the plaque itself doesn't need to come up what we need to improve the flow and stabilize that plaque from being able to

embolize small clot overall medical therapy is really just these basic things aspirin or sometimes dual antiplatelet therapy so that's aspirin and plavix in addition aggressive statin therapy so

Doc's will Vascular Docs anyone interested in this space will have you a non-aggressive statins or cholesterol-lowering medications stop smoking tight glucose control so those diabetics have to be really well

regulated and in the blood pressure control if you don't do those things no matter what you do with the carotid endarterectomy or the stenting is gonna fail so what's carotid endarterectomy

there a better option this is where a carotid artery stenting was developed over a couple decades ago and this is a

less invasive viable option for treating carotid artery stenosis it was generally started off as a trends ephemeral approach but I'll show you what the new approach is that many of us are involved in it involves the use of

in volunteer tection so it's one of the unique vascular territories where embolic protection is required if you're gonna get Medicare reimbursement for this you have to involvement and bollocky protection if you do without

you can do the procedure but you won't get it you won't get reimbursed and ultimately it's it was proven to show much better outcomes if you use involved protection because even doing the procedure and trying to place the stent

there is some small embolic degree that that that shuttles off and if it happens in the foot you may or may not lose a toe but if it happens in the brain you're gonna lose brain cells and it's gonna be potentially catastrophic so

significant adjunct to the stenting procedure is doing embolic protection and there's two types of embolic protection there's distal and there's proximal I'll walk through each of those with some diagrams here and then anyone

that gets a carotid stent has to be on dual antiplatelet therapy so if they have an allergy they're unable to be on aspirin and plavix they don't get a stent because there's early stent thrombosis that can't occur in these

patients if they don't have that dual antiplatelet therapy so let's go through

these are our prospective CDT trials it's a lot to go through them so I'm not going to suffice it to say that the only one of these that is randomized is the

one in the top left the ultimate trial with 59 patients the rest of these are single set are single arm studies the optimized trial was randomized but the key arm it did not have was a control arm so all it did was vary the amount of

drug but there was no control arm to tell us how are people doing if they just get heparin well and I'll show you one result from these trials that is the most important result and that is up from the ultimate trial at 24 hours CDT

catheter to thrombolysis reduces the RV to lv ratio to a greater extent than heparin alone what does that mean so you saw all those pictures with the big dilated right ventricles our surrogate measure for right ventricular

dysfunction is the ratio of the diameter the inner diameter of the right ventricle to the left ventricle what we found in this study was that that ratio got reduced to a greater extent at 24 hours in the CDT arm compared to heparin

alone that means that CDT seems to reduce our V dysfunction faster than heparin now importantly 30 days later the echos looked identical so really it's a question of time which is not surprising what we've noticed in

our practice is that patients feel better faster okay I'm gonna go through the rest of this because I'm out of time but I want to give you a little bit of a sense of where we're going because there's bleeding associated with CDT and

maybe I'll show you this that in the Seattle to trial there was an 11% major bleeding rate now this was a pretty conservative definition but there were some serious bleeds and there were no intracranial

hemorrhages in this study but we have realized that CDT is not risk-free it's not like we've all of a sudden gained all of the advantages of systemic thrombolytics and none of the disadvantages now the rate of

intracranial hemorrhage seems to be about tenfold less but it does happen about 0.2 to 0.4% of the time the rate of major bleeding seems to be about 5% which is about half the rate of major bleeding that we see with system or

thrombosis so bleeding is still there it just doesn't seem to be as frequent so that's where some of these other devices are coming in then our a float Reaver the the the extra penumbra indigo cat 8 device and so the the float Reaver is

has actually gone through the full trial and the results are about to be published what is this thing well it's this pretty big hose which is about 20 French and it goes through the right heart and goes up there and it takes

this clot and literally aspirates it out and these are some of the things that will come out and that's sort of your post picture right there the data showed something similar to what we saw with the catheter directed thrombolysis

trials they had looked at 106 patients are vlv ratio was reduced again there's no comparator arm here so this is just the device on its own with a 3.8 percent adverse event rate and so now we're talking about mechanical devices that

don't use a clot-busting medication therefore you're gonna you can expect less bleeding but you're trading some of that off for a mechanical device that can cause injury to either myocardial structures or to the pulmonary artery so

that's something we have to be highly cognizant of as they're introduced into the market this is the penumbra cat 8 this is from Jim Benenati publication basically showing a couple things that's the separator that is the actual

catheter and that's the sheath back there so you've got poor profusion because of a clot in the inter lobar pulmonary artery and then at the end of it you have better perfusion for lung down there so we actually just completed

enrollment into the extract PE trial 120 sub massive PE patients the same efficacy endpoint you have to remember that has been established by the FDA as a way to get approval this is not the final

study nor should it be the final study when we evaluate these devices so to summarize sub massive PE what does the data not tell us CDT probably reduces the RV to LV ratio at 24 hours that is the main outcome that I want you

guys to remember from the ultimate trial it's associated you didn't see this data so don't worry about that we do see major bleeding and sometimes rarely but sometimes we see intracranial bleeding with CDT as well so what we're missing

from catheter directed thrombosis for sub massive PE is what are the clinical outcomes the RV to LV ratio is a surrogate outcome what about death what about clinical deterioration what about recurrent hospitalization what

about recurrent VTE how are people doing in the long term are they walking as well as they were before we don't know any of this none of the data right so far can tell us any of this information so where do we go from here for sub

I would like to convince you that

claudication is a different disease than critical limb ischemia even though it's the same on you're lying principle it's a different disease and here's why what is the fate of a Claude account so in five years

most Claude Akins are stable now I'm not saying they're living without pain I'm not trying to diminish their symptoms they may say look I can I can't live my life because I'm you know it hurts to walk from here to there and I'm sorry

but at the end of the day most of them will be stable they're not gonna dot they're not gonna get worse and they're not gonna have an amputation only a small percentage progress to critical of ischemia now let's look at the fate of a

critical limb ischemia patient in one year the majority are either dead or have another amputation have a bilateral heba have lost one of their legs and a lot of them have lost both their legs and so this is a serious mortal morbid

disease in fact if you look at it compared to some cancers critical of ischemia has a worse overall survival than a lot of common cancers and when I was trained my mentor used to say CLI critical mass Kimia is cancer by another

name we just have to treat it like palliation okay and that becomes important the way we treat things so when I treat a Claddagh Kent I am really looking toward their entire life you know is this treatment worth it I don't

want to make you worse with a critical limb ischemia patient I am all hands on deck we're gonna do everything we can and why every 20 seconds a lower limb is lost to diabetes patients with rest pain or gangrene really need to see a

specialist I've asked your specialist not any vascular specialist a basket specialist who knows how to do critical an ischemia okay so I'm from North Carolina or I live in North Carolina now cardiovascular disease rates were you

know obviously toward toward the south hi here's the amputation rates we are right there in the amputation belt if you look at the dark blue they sort of along the south and into Texas and we're all in the amputation belt right now

because we're all in Texas and so we do way way too many amputations sadly over 50% of patients who have an amputation never had an angiogram so in other words that doesn't mean someone tried and failed which is at least respectable you

know at least tried it's we never looked we never even bothered now there's a lot of amputations that should if someone's septic and dying or sure or limbs unsalvageable of course yeah you don't just take the like I understand

that but that's not 50% that is a lot of patients who no-one's even bother looking so how do we make the diagnosis

now that you all have an overview and a refresher of nursing school and how these medications work in our body I want to now go over our practice

guidelines and the considerations that we take into place so as you know I'm not going to go over into detail the patient populations that are prescribed these meds but kind of knowing that these are the

patients that we see in our practice that for example are on your direct direct vector 10a inhibitors patients with afib or artificial valves or patients with a clock er sorry a factor v clotting disorder these oral direct

thrombin inhibitors patients with coronary artery thrombosis or patients who are at risk for hit in even patients with percutaneous coronary intervention or even for prophylaxis purposes your p2 y12 inhibitors or your platelet

inhibitors are your cabbage patients or your patients with coronary artery disease or if your patients have had a TI AR and mi continued your Cox inhibitors rheumatoid arthritis patients osteoarthritis vitamin K antagonists a

fib heart failure patients who have had heart failure mechanical valves placed pulmonary embolism or DVT patients and then your angiogenesis inhibitors kind of like Kerry said these are newer to our practice these are things that we

had just recently really kind of get caught up with these cancer agents because there really aren't any monitoring factors for these and there is not a lot of established literature out there knowing that granted caring I

did our literature review almost two years ago now so 18 months ago there is a lot more literature and obviously we learned things this morning so our guidelines are reviewed on a by yearly basis so we will be reviewing these too

so there is more literature out there for these thank goodness so now we want to kind of go into two hold or not to hold these medications so knowing that we have these guidelines and we'll be sharing you with you the tables that

tell us hold for five days for example hold for seven days some of these medications depending on why the patient is taking them are not safe to hold so some of the articles that we reviewed showed that for sure there's absolutely

an identified risk with holding aspirin for example a case study found that a patient was taking aspirin for coronary artery disease and had an MI that was associated with holding aspirin for a

radiology procedure they found that this happened in 2% of patients so 11 of 475 patients that sounds small number but in our practice we do about 400 procedures in a week so that would be 11 patients in one week that would have had possibly

an adverse reaction to holding their aspirin and then your Cox inhibitors or your NSAIDs as Carrie already mentioned it's just really important to know that some of those the Cox inhibitors have no platelet effects and then your NSAIDs

can be helped because their platelet function is normalized within 24 to 48 hours Worf Roman coumadin so depending on the procedure type and we'll go into that to here where we have low risk versus moderate to high risk

we do recommend occasionally holding warfarin however we need to verify why the patient is absolutely on their warfarin and if bridging is an option because as you learn bridging is not always on the most appropriate thing for

your patient so when patients on warfarin and they do not have any lab values available that's when you really need to step outside of guidelines and talk with your radiologists your procedure list and potentially have a

physician to physician discussion to determine what's best for a particular patient this just kind of goes into your adp inhibitors and plavix a few of the studies that we showed 50 are sorry 63 patients who took Plex within five days

of their putt biopsy they found that there was of those one bleeding complication during a lung biopsy so minimal so that's kind of why we have created our guidelines the way we did and here's just more information

regarding your direct thrombin inhibitors as cari alluded to products is something that we see very commonly in our practice and then your direct vector 10a inhibitors this is what we found in the literature

do we care about carotid occlusive disease why is it such a big deal stroke is a major factor obviously stroke is the third leading cause of death 750-thousand approaching a million

strokes a year and it's a leading cause even if you survive the stroke of disability majority of these are ischemic and not bleeding or hemorrhagic strokes and a lot of them a significant number of the ischemic strokes reside or

source from carotid disease so the carotid is the issue in those patients and the stroke risk in those patients is as ultimately related to the degree of stenosis that they have or narrowing that they have at the carotid and do

they have any history of neurologic symptoms that determines if they're symptomatic or asymptomatic so you could have a critically narrowed lesion but have zero symptoms that's asymptomatic and you can have a

less significant so no --ss not 99% but say 70% but you have some symptoms you're getting blindness intermittently or or intermittent numbness in your hands and that's symptomatic right and with

that that's a much more worrisome sign in the setting of that even though milder stenosis so what is the you know the importance of this is for us to be able to to determine which patients who we would be treating or not so we're all

about massive PE so let's remember this slide 25 to 65 percent mortality what do we do with this what's our goal what's

our role as interventionalists here well we need to rescue these patients from death you know this it's a coin flip that they're going to die we need to really that there's only one job we have is to save this person's life get them

out of that vicious cycle get more blood into the left ventricle and get their systemic blood pressure up what are our tools systemic thrombolysis at the top catherine directed therapy at the right and surgical level that what

unblocked me at the left as I said before the easiest thing to do is put an IV in and give systemic thrombolysis but what's interesting is it's very much underused so this is a study from Paul Stein he looked at the National

inpatient sample database and he found that patients that got thrombolytic therapy with hypotension and this is all based on icd-10 coding actually had a better outcome than those who didn't we have several other studies that support

this but you look at this and it seems like our use of thrombolytics and massive PE is going down and I think into the for whatever reason that that the specter of bleeding is really on people's minds and and for and we're not

using systemic thrombolysis as often as we should that being said there are cases in which thrombolytics are contraindicated or in which they fail and that opens the door for these other therapies surgical unblocked demand

catheter active therapy surgical unblocked mean really does have a role here I'm not going to speak about it because I'm an interventionist but we can't forget that so catheter directed therapy all sorts

of potential options you got the angio vac device over here you've got the penumbra cat 8 device here you've got an infusion catheter both here and here you've got the cleaner device I haven't pictured the inari float

Reaver which is a great new device that's entered the market as well my message to you is that you can throw the kitchen sink at these patients whatever it takes to open up a channel and get blood to the left ventricle you can do

now that being said there is the angio jet which has a blackbox warning in the pulmonary artery I will never use it because I'm not used to using it but you talk to Alan Matsumoto Zieve Haskell these guys have a lot of experience with

the androgen and PE they know how to use it but I would say though they're the only two people that I know that should use that device because it is associated with increased death within the setting of PE we don't really know you know with

great precision why that happens but theoretically what that causes is a release of adenosine can cause bradycardia bradycardia and massive p/e they just don't mix well so

that was one example so these are there have a lot of potential complications reperfusion pulmonary edema is a very very big potential complication so you could get through the case patient does

great you open up multiple pulmonary arteries and then they start coughing up blood and then they end up started drowning in their own blood and the ICU so we do not want to push that and the initial papers that you can see down

below on that table they had a very high almost 10% in some cases pulmonary edema requiring treatment requiring patients being put on CPAP or being intubated and that is because they treated too much at one time

and so now as this when this first started in the early 2000s the operators were treating multiple segments at multiple times at one time and they were using large balloons and we figured out that that was what was killing patients

and so we changed our treatment so this is the first study that was ever performed for this it was performed by dr. Feinstein I believe this was published in circulation it was done in Harvard at MGH they had 18 patients with

36 month follow-up they all improved in their ability to walk as well as their lifestyle but many of them 11 out of 18 patients had reperfusion injury so this was the first paper and at that time it became the last paper because so many

patients did poorly but here's what they're sort of what they did and the ones that did okay they you could see that they had an improvement in the New York Heart Association classification again that just means they can walk

further they're not less short of breath and that they could walk further in 6 minutes which is again our sort of first test outcomes over time whence this has become increased so you can see that study was in 2001 and then

it kind of went away for a long time and it came back in 2012 in Japan where the most operators are there they've treated up to 255 procedures now since this slide was made we're up to a thousand in Japan and those patients are doing very

well but you'll notice that they have multiple procedures so again you don't try to one-and-done these patients they come back four to six times we've treated a couple patients where I work and we've treated that was patients four

times already and so they do much better but it's a slow slow and steady treatment so I want to wrap up with saying that the IR team is very critical to patients who are getting treated for PE we're involved in the diagnosis as

the radiology team acute and chronic PE it's very important to know as I've shown you in some of the examples and some of the images which when it's acute and versus chronic doing thrombolysis on a patient with chronic PE is useless all

you're doing is putting them at a risk you're not going to be able to break up that clot it's very important to have inter and multidisciplinary approach to patient care so interdisciplinary meaning everybody in this room nurses

technologists and physicians working together to take care of that patient that's on your table right now and multi-disciplinary because you have to work with cardiology vascular medicine the ICU teams and the

referring providers whether it's neurosurgery vascular surgery whomever it is who's Evers patient gets a PE you have to work together and it's very important again to have collaborative care in these patients if we're doing a

procedure and somebody notices that the patient is desaturating that's very very important when you're working in the pulmonary arteries if somebody notices that the patient's groin is bleeding you have to speak up so it's very important

that everybody is working together which is really what we need to do for these patients so there's my references and there's my kid so thank you guys very much hopefully this was helpful I'd be

it's obviously either done with general

anesthesia or perhaps a regional block at our institution is generally done with general anesthesia we have a really combined vascular well developed combined vascular practice we work closely with our surgeons as well as

you know those who are involved in the vascular interventional space as far as the ir docs and and in this setting they would do generally general anesthetic and a longitudinal neck incision so you've got that and the need for that to

heal ultimately dissect out the internal carotid the external carotid common carotid and get vessel loops and good control over each of those and then once you have all of that you hyper NIH's the patient systemically not unlike what we

do in the angio suite and then they make a nice longer-term longitudinal incision on the carotid you spot scissors to cut those up and they actually find that plaque you can see that plaque that's shown there it's you know actually

pretty impressive if you've seen it and let's want to show an illustrative picture there ultimately that's open that's removed you don't get the entirety of the plaque inside the vessel but they get as much as they can and

then they kind of pull and yank and that's one of the pitfalls of this procedure I think ultimately is you don't get all of it you get a lot more than you realize is they're on on angiography but you don't get all of it

and whatever is left sometimes can be sometimes worse off and then ultimately you close the wound reverse the heparin and closed closed it overall and hope that they don't have an issue with wound healing don't have an issue with a

general anesthetic and don't have a stroke in the interim while they've clamped and controlled the vessel above and below so here's a case example from our institution in the past year this is a critical asymptomatic left internal

carotid artery stenosis pretty stenotic it almost looks like it's vocally occluded you can see that doesn't look very long it's in the proximal internal carotid artery you can see actually the proximal external carotid artery which

is that kind of fat vessel anteriorly also looks stenotic and so it's going to be addressed as well and this is how they treated it this is the exposure in this particular patient big incision extractors place and you can see vessel

loops up along the internal and external carotid arteries distally along some early branches of the external carotid artery off to the side and then down below in the common core artery and ultimately you get good vessel control

you clamp before you make the incision ultimately take out a plaque that looks like this look how extensive that plaque is compared to what you saw in the CT scan so it's not it's generally much more

impressive what's inside the vessel than what you appreciate on imaging but it's the focal stenosis that's the issue so ultimately if yet if the patient was a candidate stenting then you just place a stent

across that and he stabilized this plaque that's been removed and essentially plasti to that within the stent so it doesn't allow any thrombus to break off of this plaque and embolize up to the brain that's the issue of raw

it's the flow through there becomes much more turbulent as the narrowing occurs with this blockage and it's that turbulent flow that causes clot or even a small amount of clot to lodge up distally within the intrical in

terrestrial vasculature so that's the issue here at all if you don't take all that plaque out that's fine as long as you can improve the turbulent blood flow with this stent but this is not without risk so you take that plaque out which

looks pretty bad but there are some complications right so major minor stroke in death an asset which is a trial that's frequently quoted this is really this trial that was looking at medical therapy versus carotid surgery

five point eight percent of patients had some type of stroke major minor so that's not insignificant you get all that plaque out but if you know one in twenty you get a significant stroke then that's not so bad I'm not so good right

so but even if they don't get a stroke they might get a nerve palsy they might get a hematoma they may get a wound infection or even a cardiovascular event so nothing happens in the carotid but the heart has an issue because the

blockages that we have in the carotid are happening in the legs are happening in the coronary so those patients go through a stress event the general anesthetic the surgery incision whatever and then recovery from that I actually

put some stress on the whole body overall and they may get an mi so that's always an issue as well so can we do something less invasive this is actually a listing of the trials the talk is going to be available to you guys so I'm

not going to go through each of this but this is comparing medical therapy which I started with and surgery and comparing the two options per treatment and showing that in certain symptomatic patients if they have significant

stenosis which is deemed greater than 70% you may be better off treating them with surgery or stenting than with best medical therapy and as we've gotten better and better with being more aggressive with best medical therapy

this is moving a little bit but here's the criteria for treatment and so you have that available to you but really is

talk here with something that's new on the horizon believe it or not it was actually on the horizon 20 years ago and then it went away because there were a lot of patients that were treated with a

lot of complications and it's making a resurgence and this is balloon pulmonary angioplasty or BPA for short so this is an intervention which may be feasible in non-operative candidates so I mentioned to the Jamison classification earlier

type 1 and type 2 disease should be treated with surgery again it should be treated is curative but patients with type 2 and a half or 3 disease can be treated with balloon pulmonary angioplasty in the right in the right

frame which means that a surgeon has said I cannot operate on this a medical doctor has said boy they're not going to get better with their medicine let's try something else well this is that something else and that's what involves

everyone in this room so this is these are usually staged interventions with potentially high radiation and contrast dose if you think about it it's like Venis recan and a pulmonary AVM all-in-one so it's a potentially a long

complex procedure with a lot of contrast and a lot of radiation but it can provide a lot of benefit to these patients I'm going to talk about the comp potential complications at the end which is one reason why not

everyone should do these all the time so this is a pulmonary angiogram from the literature when you're injecting a selective pulmonary artery you can see that this patient has multiple stenosis there's no real good flow there the

vessels look shriveled up like I mentioned to you before you can get a balloon across it and balloon the areas and then you can see afterwards so the image a on the left is before an image D is afterwards believe it or not this are

in the most experienced hands because the most experienced hands are for palm the BP AR in Japan they do hundreds of cases of these a year at each hospital I've personally only done five so but this is a something that I'm very

interested in and you can see how how much benefit it has for that patient another way you can see these are the webs and the bands that I mentioned to you earlier so what's interesting is that if you look on the first set of

images on the top and the images on the bottom those are the same patients it's the same view before top rows before and the bottom rows after balloon pulmonary angioplasty so the first image is a pulmonary angiogram where if you kind of

see this there's there's some area areas of haziness those are the webs and bands the image on the the middle is the blown-up views and you can see those areas and then the image on the right is intravascular ultrasound which I use

every day in my practice it's a catheter with an ultrasound on it and when you look at it on the top image image see you can see a lot of thrombus you're actually not seeing flow and on image F on the bottom you're seeing red which is

the blood flow so these patients can actually improve the luminal diameter bye-bye ballooning them you can treat occlusions again image on the left shows you a pulmonary artery with a basically an occlusion proximally and then after

you reek analyze it and balloon it you can see that they can get much more

note of PA D in patients with diabetes unfortunately in diabetes all the bad things that happen in PA D amplified in diabetes so 20% of patients with

diabetes over 40 40 have PA D diabetes increases the risk of claudication three times in men eight times in women all right basically everything you think about going bad happens in diabetes it is more common it's more often silent

which means you're not going to catch it earlier it happens at a younger age it gets worse faster and the male and female distributions equal 15% of patients with diabetes develop ulcers and 85% of amputations it's the most

common cause of non-traumatic amputations worldwide and should be preventable so when we're in the angio

so just a compliment what we everybody's talked about I think a great introduction for diagnosing PID the imaging techniques to evaluate it some of the Loney I want to talk about some of the above knee interventions no disclosures when it sort of jumped into

a little bit there's a 58 year old male who has a focal non-healing where the right heel now interestingly we when he was referred to me he was referred to for me for a woman that they kept emphasizing at the anterior end going

down the medial aspect of the heel so when I literally looked at that that was really a venous stasis wound so he has a mixed wound and everybody was jumping on that wound but his hour till wound was this this right heel rudra category-five

his risk factors again we talked about diabetes being a large one that in tandem with smoking I think are the biggest risk factors that I see most patient patients with wounds having just as we talked about earlier we I started

with a non-invasive you can see on the left side this is the abnormal side the I'm sorry the right leg is the abnormal the left leg is the normal side so you can see the triphasic waveforms the multiphasic waveforms on the left the

monophasic waveforms immediately at the right I don't typically do a lot of cross-sectional imaging I think a lot of information can be obtained just from the non-invasive just from this the first thing going through my head is he

has some sort of inflow disease with it that's iliac or common I'll typically follow within our child duplex to really localize the disease and carry out my treatment I think a quick comment on a little bit of clinicals so these

waveforms will correlate with your your Honourable pencil Doppler so one thing I always emphasize with our staff is when they do do those audible physical exams don't tell me whether there's simply a Doppler waveform or a Doppler pulse I

don't really care if there's not that means their leg would fall off what I care about is if monophasic was at least multiphasic that actually tells me a lot it tells me a lot afterwards if we gain back that multiphase the city but again

looking at this a couple of things I can tell he has disease high on the right says points we can either go PITA we can go antegrade with no contralateral in this case I'll be since he has hide he's used to the right go contralateral to

the left comment come on over so here's the angio I know NGOs are difficult Aaron when there's no background so just for reference I provided some of the anatomy so this is the right you know groin area

right femur so the right common from artery and SFA you have a downward down to the knee so here's the pop so if we look at this he has Multi multi multiple areas of disease I would say that patients that have above knee disease

that have wounds either have to level disease meaning you have iliac and fem-pop or they at least have to have to heal disease typically one level disease will really be clot against again another emphasis a lot of these patients

since they're not very mobile they're not very ambulatory this these patients often come with first a wound or rest pain so is this is a patient was that example anyway so what we see again is the multifocal occlusions asta knows

he's common femoral origin a common femoral artery sfa origin proximal segment we have a occlusion at the distal sfa so about right here past the air-duct iratus plus another occlusion at the mid pop to talk about just again

the tandem disease baloney he also has a posterior tibial occlusion we talked about the fact that angio some concept so even if I treat all of this above I have to go after that posterior tibial to get to that heel wound and complement

the perineal so ways to reach analyze you know the the biggest obstacle here is on to the the occlusions i want to mention some of the devices out there I'm not trying to get in detail but just to make it reader where you know there's

the baiance catheter from atronics essentially like a little metal drill it wobbles and tries to find the path of least resistance to get through the occlusion the cross or device from bard is a device that is essentially or what

I call is a frakking device they're examples they'll take a little peppermint they'll sort of tap away don't roll the hole peppermint so it's like a fracking device essentially it's a water jet

that's pulse hammering and then but but to be honest I think the most effective method is traditional wire work sorry about that there are multiple you know you're probably aware of just CTO wires multi weighted different gramm wires 12

gram 20 gram 30 gram wires I tend to start low and go high so I'll start with the 12 gram uses supporting micro catheter like a cxi micro catheter a trailblazer and a B cross so to look at here the sheath I've placed a sheet that

goes into the SFA I'm attacking the two occlusions first the what I used is the micro catheter about an 1/8 micro catheter when the supporting my catheters started with a trailblazer down into the crossing the first

occlusion here the first NGO just shows up confirmed that I'm still luminal right I want to state luminal once I've crossed that first I've now gone and attacked the second occlusion across that occlusion so once I've cross that

up confirm that I'm luminal and then the second question is what do you want to do with that there's gonna be a lot of discussions on whether you want Stan's direct me that can be hold hold on debate but I think a couple of things we

can agree we're crossing their courageous we're at the pop if we can minimize standing that region that be beneficial so for after ectomy couple of flavors there's the hawk device which

essentially has a little cutter asymmetrical cutter that allows you to actually shave that plaque and collect that plaque out there's also a horrible out there device that from CSI the dime back it's used to sort of really sort of

like a plaque modifier and softened down that plaque art so in this case I've used this the hawk device the hawk has a little bit of a of a bend in the proximal aspect of the catheter that lets you bias the the device to shape

the plaque so here what I've done you there you can see the the the the the teeth itself so you can tell we're lateral muta Liz or right or left is but it's very hard to see did some what's AP and posterior so usually

what I do is I hop left and right I turned the I about 45 degrees and now to hawk AP posterior I'm again just talking left to right so I can always see where the the the the AP ended so I can always tell without the the teeth

are angioplasty and then here once I'm done Joan nice caliber restored flow restored then we attacked the the common for most enosis and sfa stenosis again having that device be able to to an to direct

that device allows me to avoid sensing at the common femoral the the plaque is resolved from the common femoral I then turn it and then attack the the plaque on the lateral aspect again angioplasty restore flow into the common firm on the

proximal SFA so that was the there's the plaque that you can actually obtain from that Hawk so you're physically removing that that plaque so so that's you know that's the the restoration that flow just just you know I did attack the

posterior tibial I can cross that area I use the diamond back for that balloon did open it up second case is a woman

so who are the most ideal candidates for fibroid embolization obviously I would say the most ideal candidates are patients that are symptomatic and I've told you already that 80% of black women

have fibroids but guess what only half of those will be so symptomatic that they would need to be even treated so just because fibroids exist don't mean that they need to actually be treated already so you

to actually have symptoms most patients that are symptomatic will again wait to getting treatment for like three and a half to five years but when they come we want to make sure that they're symptomatic and that they're not trying

to become pregnant and I know somebody in the audience has a question around that already so let's hold your high horses I'm coming to that how about patients that don't want to have surgery or just don't have time to

have surgery they don't have time for long recovery if you don't care if you have your uterus or not then I'm not so sure that you need to be pursuing a uterine sparing procedure okay and I'm gonna pause here to address one other

thing that it's a myth it is a myth that if you do not need to have children then you do not need your uterus I beg to differ and when we talk to women they are quite upset about this preposition that the uterus is only there for

baby-making purposes in fact there have been several studies now that have come out to say that women that have had early hysterectomy even with their ovaries in place are predisposed to coronary artery disease or

cardiovascular events we would like patients that are poor surgical candidates because if they can have surgery then they may be able to have surgery or patients that do not desire future fertility patients that have

already concerns about hysterectomy because of religious reasons or don't want to have hormonal therapy and I actually like patients that have have a have obesity because if we are able to do this procedure then they're spared

more complications related to surgery so the ideal patient then and this is a very important point said all three criteria would need to be fit that if you're a patient in order to be offered embolization number one

you have to have fibroids believe it or not you have to have symptoms that are related to fibroids and then you have to have some MRI that says that the location of where your fiber it is is causing that symptom and that these

fibroids are vascular let me explain okay and I'm going to skip this so I've been working with people for a long enough time and I've work of Julie for years I've worked with Diane and Anna and some other people for like ten years

and imagine if you're working with me for ten years you know that you're probably going to be able to do this procedure too like you're scrubbing right next to me eventually like you pick these things up what I get paid for

is not to do that and for the experienced nurses and techs that are in the room you know exactly what I'm talking about you're better than the doctors half of the time you really could do this procedure but what I get

paid for is to decide who does not even get to come on the table to get this procedure done so pay attention to this slide and these this criteria is being challenged every day and we're getting more and more data to say that this is

old information that we used to say if the uterus was like more than six months then you probably shouldn't have a uterine sparing procedure but we know that we do in embolization all the time in patients that have large fibroids

anyway but there's no data to actually give us that information most of the trials that we have and we have had a lot of them they have excluded patients where their individual fibroids were greater than 12 centimeters if you have

had an indeterminate and de metrio biopsy or you're having abnormal pap smear doing a uterine sparing procedure makes no sense so we use these imaging to really help us to determine which patients really

deserve to be treated so everybody can see that that image on the Left where it says submucosal refers to and I'm gonna try and come down so I can see these images here and you can see that there is a fibroid that is in

truck hava teri do you see that that round thing that is surrounded by the white fluid that is someone that has what we would call a type zero fibroid completely within the unit of course this is going to cause bleeding but

should this person have a uterine artery embolization or a hysterectomy Gail no this patient should have like hysteroscopic resection like a D&C and they would just scrape that thing out and then their symptoms would go away or

the patient on the right that has a normal appearing uterus and then this pedunculated gigantic thing that has bled into itself that is like a sub serosa fibroid of the extreme just hanging off on the outside now should

this patient have embolization no someone can tie a string right at that little connection and take that thing out so using our imaging to help us to decide which patients should be treated is very important or this patient who

came with Oh dr. Newsome I've been bleeding for 10 weeks in a row I have reversed cycles I have bulk I have bladder symptoms and yet they have that little dot that little black thing there that little dot

at the top that is the only place where there's a fibroid so this patient should not be a candidate for embolization either because yes they have symptoms and they have that little tiny daughter for fibra but that is not what's causing

those symptoms so it is important that we're not doing procedures on patients just because we can but because we're using our imaging and the patient's symptom to decide which patients are the best candidates for these procedures

very helpful these patients the calcium this and the vessels can be

seen through with the MRA it doesn't it doesn't cause as much artifact so it could be easier to see what's going on in calcified vessels additionally you saw an image in Marc's talk as well of this is an example of a time-resolved

image of an MRA or you can basically recreate exactly what you're seeing in an angiogram and this could be very helpful to kind of determine what kind of TVL disease you're getting yourself into

newer MRI techniques that we're using in the evaluation patients with PID functional MRI which compares the ratio of how much oxygen versus deoxygenated hemoglobin we have in a tissue so we can apply this to a pre and post exercise

scenario in patients to have claudication as well although it's not it's only approved in research protocols this is an example of what you see for that so pre intervention here's the CTA image reconstruct

in 3d with a long segment an iliac occlusion and then post intervention you can see there's a standard reconstructed vessel and the you can both chart this out and do it and superimpose it on the MRA image and you're gonna get an actual

quantitative amount of tissue reperfusion but studies are still ongoing to determine just how much increasing the amount of red that's in that image is important we don't know the answer to that yet here's just

another example a patient underwent an anterior tibial artery recanalization and you can see the improvement in the t2 star which is just one of the one of the measurements that you can use on these images so what's on the horizon

no thanks to the avir we really wouldn't be able to do anything that we can without y'all so I take great great pride in sharing things from our perspective said you folks can start contributing your own thoughts your own opinions and your own vision during

these cases I think it's certainly something that I've appreciated since the first day of doing invention where do you all do so having said that we're just a smidge in the behind side so we'll try to focus today is mainly a

survey to stimulate everyone in terms of what's actually happening on the other end of the catheter with respect to the patient why are we doing these things where's our role and I think that's gonna add hopefully some value the next

time you folks step in on one of these cases alright so as you know dr. daughter first was able to visualize the inside of a blood vessel and find a stenosis and a lady who had limb ischemia and then was able to use a

dilator to fix that so obviously that gave birth to interventional radiology so we started taking pictures of tumors just to diagnose tumors back in the day before we had actual imaging and what we found

was well if tumors have a high demand for blood just like anything else what happens if we take away that blood and this is a 1975 image of renal cell carcinoma is to call them hyper and if Roma's back then but basically the

concept of interventional ecology was born the moment you could do something to make the environment for the tumor less hospitable and to try to palliate patients if they weren't subject to the the gold treatment standards like

resection in this case so fast forward to 2016 there was a huge study was International where they looked at over 3 000 patients who have primary liver cancer or her pata cellular carcinoma and what they found was that regardless

of where but if you sum all the treatment decisions that are related to those patients about 70% will see treatment by an interventional radiologist as you know that was a astounding amount

so si are listened to a lot of these types of messages even outside of obviously oncology basically we realize that there's a tremendous responsibility and the best thing to do is to dedicate ourselves fully to that and that's why I

think with IR now is a separate medical specialty we're going to start seeing more of the clinical involvement of this and certainly think the caseloads going to go up so why interventional oncology

I think it's important to understand what options we have in in treating patients with carotid disease or those

in our practice medical therapy is a mainstay so all these patients regardless that they get t'car carotid stenting or otherwise need to get the best medical therapy there is a role though for each of these surgical

endovascular or a hybrid such as t'car and hopefully you have a better understanding of that option and ultimately if you understand the different techniques then we can apply the best ones depending on the patient's

anatomy or current clinical scenario and and apply that to that patient thank you [Applause]

I'm Nikki Jensen Nicole is what my mother calls me but that's alright thank you all for joining us today I am the clinical resource nas I work in a clinical nurse specialist position I graduated in May so I'll finally be called the clinical nurse specialist

after I passed my boards in nonvascular radiology so at Mayo Clinic Rochester we are kind of split up between I are in our IR practice where we have non vascular procedural Center CT MRI ultrasound guided procedures we'll go

over a list of our standard perform procedures as well as our neuro interventional and vascular interventional practice so Kerri and I work in the non vascular so we do not do any neuro interventional or vascular

vascular interventional procedures so these guidelines are going to focus on your LR CT or ultrasound guided procedures how many of you went to the combined session this morning great this is going to be an overview because what

we saw presented there really reiterates what we are have brought into our practice but then we're also going to share how we created nursing guidelines and how we rolled that into our practice this is Carrie Carrie is a staff nurse

in our department I worked as a staff nurse for seven years prior to this position I've been in this position now for four years and really enjoy it I do want to give a little shout-out to Carrie and I presented or sorry we

published an article in the June 28th volume 37 issue - that really coincides with our presentation today so I would encourage you to read that publication and then you'll get additional information on how we did this yes all

right we have nothing to disclose unfortunately or fortunately right so the purpose of this presentation is to help you all understand the importance of creating reviewing the literature

understanding your for one your coagulation casket as well cascade as well as anticoagulants that are out there or new up-and-coming medications and understanding that yes it's very important to establish and create these

guidelines so that within your practice you don't have differing radiologists that have differing opinions if you're working with doctor so-and-so today you need to worry about these labs if you're working with you know dr. Johnson

tomorrow he doesn't care about the labs we did this to help standardize that to help reduce the amount of questions our nurses have how many times we're interrupting our radiologists but then also we need to take into consideration

the importance of the patients and their different disease processes and we'll be going over that too so it's nice to have established guidelines but then also we need to take into consideration why patients are on certain medications this

here is our list of objectives I'm not going to read them for you you can all read them and we've provided you all with handouts too but really we want to just help kind of explain mechanism of actions and different medications and

how we established our guidelines this here is where Kari and I come from full disclosure we do have snow on the ground so these pictures were not taken before we came we are really enjoying this nice warm weather but for those of you who

are not familiar with the history of Mayo Clinic in Rochester who we have a hundred and fifty plus year tradition of implementing evidence-based care to assure the needs of our patient come first we are divided up into one

downtown campus but we have three different main areas so we have our st. Mary's Hospital this is where Kerry is based out of this is this houses most all of our ICUs as well as most all of our inpatients so we do a lot of

inpatients but we also see outpatients in this hospital Rochester Methodist Hospital this is where our he mock patients typically are we do have one ICU within Hospital as well but then right here my

office is right there this is our Mayo downtown campus so this is where most of our patients come for outside procedures or outpatient diagnostic imaging exams this here is the group that I'm part of the clinical nursing specialist group

within our clinical nursing specialist group there are 77 of us there are five like myself clinical resources as we have not graduated as of yet I'm right there in the middle w

that work in over 70 ambulatory areas in 58 inpatient areas we also support some areas in our Arizona and Florida campuses and then we have Mayo Clinic Health System hospitals that are scattered throughout Iowa

Wisconsin in Minnesota as well I am the only one in radiology across all of our

I was tasked or asked to give a talk on carotid interventions and and there's actually been some change you know I've given to carotid talks over the years I've been doing this now eleven years at the Medical College and there wasn't a lot of innovation for a period of time

and then there's been a sudden kind of tic upwards with the last acronym here t car so we're gonna talk about these three ceac s and T car how many other room are involved with carotid stenting at the local institution I'm gonna do T

car all right so it's not gonna be brand new that's great but there's still I think for some of you pardon me an opportunity to kind of see a new device that's been brought to market over the last few years so with

that what are we gonna talk about these are the objectives it's not really gonna be a data talk this is not the intent I wanna bore you with data there will be a little bit of just sort of what's the purpose for why we do things you know

and percentage of what not but I'm not gonna go through clinical trials the intent here is really to discuss the three main treatment options for carotid occlusive disease and then review the indications for intervention so why

would we treat to symptomatic asymptomatic and then finally review the the endovascular devices or the approaches in general for carotid artery stenting in a strictly endovascular environment or in a hybrid environment

which is what the t'car device is so why

next is me talking about Egypt and Ethiopia and how I are how IRS practice in Egypt and Ethiopia and I think feather and Musti is gonna talk a little bit about Ethiopia as well he's got a

lot of experience about in about Ethiopia I chose these two countries to show you the kind of the the the the difference between different countries with within Africa Egypt is the 20th economy worldwide by GDP third largest

economy in Africa by some estimates the largest economy in Africa it's about a hundred million people about a little-little and about thirty percent of the population in the u.s. 15 florist's population worldwide and has

about a little over a hundred ir's right now 15 years ago they had less than ten IRS and fifteen years ago they had maybe two to three IRS at a hundred percent nowadays they're exceeding a hundred IRS so tremendous gross in the last 15 years

in the other hand Ethiopia is a very similar sized country but they only have three to five IRS that are not a hundred percent IRS and are still many of them are under training so there are major differences between countries within

within Africa countries that still need a lot of help and a lot of growth and countries that are like ten fifteen years ahead as far as as far as intervention ready intervention radiology

most of the practice in Ethiopia are basic biopsies drainages and vascular access but there is new workshops with with embolization as well as well as well as vascular access in Egypt the the ir practice is heavily into

interventional oncology and cancer that's the bulk that's the bulk of their of their practices you also get very strong neuro intervention radiology and that's mostly most of these are French trained and not

American trains so they're the neuro IRS in Egypt or heavily French and Belgian trains with with french-speaking influence but the bulk of the body iron that's not neuro is mostly cancer and it involves y9e tastes ablations high-end

ablations there's no cryoablation in Egypt there is high-end like like a nano knife reverse electric race electroporation in Egypt as well but there is no cryo you also get a specialty embolization such as fibroids

prostate and embroiders are big in Egypt they're growing very very rapidly especially prostates hemorrhoids and fibroids is an older one but it's still there's still a lot of growth for fibroid embolization zyou FES in Egypt

there's some portal portal intervention there's a lot of need for that but not a lot of IRS are actually doing portal intervention and then there's nonvascular such as billary gu there's also vascular access a lot of

the vascular access is actually done by nephrology and is not done by not not done by r is done by some high RS varicose veins done by vascular surgery and done by IRS as an outpatient there's a lot of visceral angiography as well

renal and transplants stuff so it's pretty high ends they do not do P ad very few IR s and maybe probably two IR s in the country that actually do P ad the the rest of the P ad is actually endovascular PA DS done by vascular

surgery a Horta is done all by vascular surgery and cardiothoracic surgery it's not done it's not done by IR IR s are asked just to help with embolization sometimes help with trying to get a catheter in a certain area but it's

really run by by vascular surgeons but but most more or less it's it's the whole gamut and I'm going to give you a little example of how things are different that when it comes to a Kannamma 'kz there's no dialysis work

they don't do Pfister grams they don't do D clots the reason for that is the vascular surgeons are actually very good at establishing fishless and they usually don't have a

lot of problems with it sometimes if the fistula is from Beau's door narrowed it's surgically revised they do a surgical thrombectomy because it's a lot cheaper it's a lot cheaper than balloons sheaths and and trying to and try a TPA

is very expensive it's a lot cheaper for a surgeon to just clean it out surgically and resuture it there's no there's no inventory there are no expensive consumables so we don't see dialysis as far as fistula or dialysis

conduits at all in Egypt and that's usually a trend in developed in developed countries next we'll talk

this is just happens to be a biliary

other classification system with bismuth how where the injury occurs and this is really germane after surgery so you'll see most of these actually after misadventure with bluish surgery and and like I said the most common ones

actually after laparoscopic surgery but we have barrier so we have oncological have two extremely complex three sections of the liver now and and we the advent and certainly rise are more balloon complications this is an example

of what we might do in the complex setting this patient had explorers in cholangitis primary cylinder current charges received a transplant and the transplant liver had a recurrence and with recurrent explorers and cholangitis

there was just no way we could cross it but even with a long-standing billy we drain frequently if you drain most obstructed systems a day or two passage across an inflamed structure it makes it much more easy and you will see their

people get brought back for their secondary tube with laryngitis sometimes this is not possible so we actually have made attempts to cross this there's no other way so we happen to use a sharp organization so we happen to use a

transept own needle and use a sharp needle go breakthrough sometimes analysis of the CT scan is a very important you really want to know what's between your one side and what's on the other side and the more even more fun

thing to do now is using our rfy off-label and we'll burn our way through and create the track that actually has a much better patency rates and even sharp organization your allow essentially coring of sort of in chronically

inflamed fibrotic tissue and allows you a chance of keeping this open it's just example of how you benchley burrow through with a shop another case with a sharp needle creating a track really that's not

natural because this is obviously a transplant patient and it's the only way through even done what we've done is stick the intestine first and then put us in a punch our way through polio stay out and

then thereby restoring the the track and they are sort of you have to be just really created with biliary disease when it comes to chronic obstructions or high-grade obstructions so like I said with benign the disease frequently it's

post-operative and so they will present in multiple different ways and most of the times they're just leaking in the intraperitoneal ich you you're you essentially peritoneal cavity will reabsorb it so patients get jaundice is

essentially it hi arrays but Rubens and you'd really can diagnose in many ways and really just dealing with this can be problematic and then so we've been dealing with bluish structures and and oh sorry benign Ballou strictures

post-operative benign Ballou strictures in a more labor-intensive way we actually leave tubes in for six months which is probably a little more than most people must be not a benign the Lewis structures are managed with three

months of stinting with a minimum of twelve French tube so that's a reason why some of these patients will get kalanchoe pasties multiple bluie a drained Rhys tenting it and tube exchanges and changed up this way and

then this is just happens to be the British is worth a typical we will get access cross the stricture kalanchoe plastic stretch out this benign structure and then place a tube in for as long as you can to keep it open and

fro asses of between three and six months there's a classic example someone who obstructed that they said this looks very smooth it doesn't look ugly and looks okay doesn't look like a cancer we sometimes what I so biopsy if it has any

suspicious appearance and then get across you can see even with a balloon how tight the structure can be with a high pressure balloon and there after placing achievement for again three to six months we actually err on the side

of caution almost our patients have six months of intubation which is quite long difficult and this is our experience what we do then is when do you remove it to actually have a sort of a step-by-step process we have a it's not

really medical clinical trials actually just if a flow clinical trial what we'll do is get the tubing bring a patient back and we actually cut the tube so there's only the access through the parenchyma of the liver is preserved but

nothing through the structure we will cap the tube is since you can maintaining access and see if the patient doesn't make sure that doesn't get fever the stricture is maintained and then we'll bring the patient back

after a week to do a balloon whiticus test that's really just a modification of a urinary radhika test we're going to take pressure measurements after slow contrast injections to make sure it remains the

patency and for us the data suggests we can essentially and predict over 90% who will be staying free if they pass the Whittaker test in keeping the monetary reading less than 20 centimeters of

water and really it allows us to manage these because of how many patients have what procedures at our institution we have a large volume of patients that we actually follow and it's a you know our fellows think it's the most common

procedure Billu intervention had this is actually not that coming everywhere else and this is what I believe tests we have a pro forma that we fill in and the contrast has been ejected in

certain rates per minute and so this test takes about 30 minutes we make sure that there's the predictive value of in less than less pressure building up over higher high contrast injection rates will give us a great prediction of no

longer needing the tube and then stone

are there any questions yeah yes that's a really good sure so the question was do you have any rules or guidelines in my institution about how long the procedure can be before you start

talking about anesthesia versus sedation is that right and positioning prone supine we did come up with a guideline with within our department we looked at a little bit of research but honestly was more expert opinion just best

practice and experience I in in general I would say if the procedure is 3 plus hours the patient should know they're going to be on the table not asleep for three plus hours and talk to them about what that means and if they're ok with

that I just think again that comes into setting realistic expectations that's one of the reasons actually that we're very interested in using Dex med otama Dean because that's going to be a better

drug for those longer procedures first was giving functional and versed for four hours it's just not it's not appropriate but you know and some people would say we'll just get an anesthesiologist them but a lot of these

patients are really thick so in our institution anesthesia is just really super regulated and they require all of these clearances for their involvement no matter what they're giving sometimes they'll require all these clearances and

they give exactly what we were going to give so you know it's it's really a juggling act I would say in our department we really just make sure the patient knows what the expectation is and then we'll usually say to the

provider to if if something goes like if anything looks a little concerning during the case we're stopping and they have to be ok with that and they are they really are but that took a lot of work to get everybody on board with that

type of communication yeah we don't know so they I know I think Sloane is anyone here from Sloane no I think Sloane has with dedicated anesthesiologists they work really closely with them and it's easier for

them to get cases scheduled they will give us they will assign us an anesthesiologist for the day but if we don't have any anesthesia cases they get reassigned somewhere in the o.r and it's a different analysis every time it tends

to be the same group some are stricter than others some will have a patient say I really want anesthesia and we can call up the provider and there they say no problem let me do a quick chart review whereas the next day the provider goes

no absolutely not send them for clearances that's a little tricky yeah right so what I showed you is from the american society of anesthesiology i am not affiliated with them at all i just think they bide non anesthesiologist

sedation so i rely heavily on what they say and they recommend waiting till peak effects so i would look at the pharmacokinetics so for versed it's 3 to 5 minutes so i would wait at least 3 minutes before your readmit a stirring I

think a good example with that is when diazepam with the sedative of choice the on the peak effect for diazepam is 1 minute so when midazolam came onto the market there were a lot of adverse outcomes

with patients because providers administering it weren't familiar with the pharmacokinetics and assumed that the peak effect for versed was the same for diazepam so in theory you could give a patient in 5 minutes 5 milligrams of

versed so by the time that fully hits them they could be in a negative 5 on your raft scale so you know just look at those pharmacokinetics look at that peak effect and I would use that to drive your dosing scheme Atlee that's what I

do and I think since we've done that we've seen better meet info cities and better safety outcomes yes okay yeah we don't do that we do one thing with uterine fibroid embolization swear they'll do a superior mesenteric block

but otherwise we don't do any other type of regional blocks but I have read about that I think that's really are the IR providers giving the block okay right I've seen two with uterine fibroid embolization we'll do an epidural in

advance some I think some institutions or some literature exists about that it's interesting it would be interesting if the IR providers could actually give it though I'm not sure if that's kosher in the anesthesia world but they're

certainly qualified to do it they they do already kind of do it really but so I mean that's certainly something interesting and if you have a provider that is comfortable taking that on and their institution I think it's worth

looking at because anything that's sort of I think mixes things up and and provides a different Avenue especially for high-risk patients is worth looking into definitely yes I believe it yeah

mm-hm right so I'll just repeat what she said so just jumping on the talk about blocks so in her institution they the providers to administer blocks and I think you said

coleus estas Tamizh and PTC's and biliary dream placements they'll use that and it will decrease the amount of sedation that's required sedation being versed and fentanyl that's required during the case which like yes like you

said is really great for patients who are already on opioids previously and habit aller ins yes [Music] something right so we again he left same provider though had a patient on Groupon

or Fein and it was our first experience within about a year ago and it was terrible and she did not have realistic expectations going in of how sedated she would be and she was very very unhappy

afterwards so we talked a lot about that and in that guideline I had mentioned that we made about when we involve anesthesia and when we don't there's a caveat about that that says that if a patient is on

methadone or buprenorphine that a discussion needs to take place making them aware that they will probably not feel very sedated but we will try our best and if they're not comfortable with that we reschedule the procedure with

anesthesia but they have to know going into it that they they may not feel completely sedated and we just keep that open and honest communication but we haven't really come up with a scheme of what's best we did actually try with her

we had her come in one day having taken her buprenorphine the day of the procedure and she seemed okay with that and then we tried having her go off of it so that the receptors wouldn't be blocked she was not happy with that

experience so that's really when a person like that probably would do great with propofol but we can't give propofol so you know if the and if the patient tells us no then we just reschedule with the anesthesia

right - hmm right right right you could at least if they're if they're on an opioid uh if they're on people nor Fein then in theory they should respond to the verse said you could go heavier hand it on the

versed just to get them sedated but they will probably still feel pain but it they hopefully won't remember it that's true I you know with the Richmond agitation sedation scale that's not going to fit every patient that's a

really good point I gave a patient seven of versed during an adrenal vein sampling and she was just talking my ear off I got I fed are you okay you know do you need me to give you anything else no no I'm good I'm good and then I wheeled

her out we got her in the recovery area and she goes sit over I said yeah she said wow I don't I don't remember anything the power of her said that that was like a true and music effect I hadn't seen that so strongly in a

patient before but if you if I had done you know I was documenting that she was a zero it looked like I wasn't doing much for her but then I was putting comments you know patient comfortable denying needing any more sedation so

won't fit every patient so it is good to look at that but yeah as far as the buprenorphine I mean it's it's it's tough yeah if they have an addiction specialist I would say talk to them and they might be

able to come up with a scheme that works for them and if there's a lot of pain expected afterwards those patients are gonna have to be on parenteral opioid therapy they'll probably have to stay you know if you're in a hospital they

would have to stay overnight so those are all things you have to consider yeah yes hmm yeah I'm like it so Adam and Alexa are nurse practitioners that we work with and I'm looking at Adam because

this is actually was a very hot topic for us in the last six months so we actually cheat we met with our sedation committee that's run by that in a physiologist who's blocking us from using pres of X and discuss with him

that in the protocol that guides our practice it's said that you did the timeout and then gave sedation but Ari anesthesiologists don't do that right so they intubate the patient and everything and then and they and then the provider

comes in and does the timeout right before the puncture or incision so we talked about to him about how well if we're gonna do the latency to peak effect it's not enough time right so we do now bring the patient in and start

sedation right away our orders are put in in advance I know some by the attending or the Li P so we have a PRN dose and with an a certain number of occurrences and a titrate to a certain Ross scale

yes yeah so and that our anesthesiologist mentions that our providers are present but it's it's a certain use of the language I think it might be like direct observation or immediately available and our providers

are immediately available it's up to your hospital so our profit our providers aren't like down the street on their way in to work with coffee and street clothes and we're sedating they're they're just down the hall maybe

or the way our department looks is we have a control area and it's like the you know the Central Station and you can see all of the rooms so they might be in the Central Station but just haven't gone in to do the time out yet that

being said I always talk to them before I bring the patient in and say what's the goal Rath and I address any concerns that I have and I think people think I'm a little kooky when I do that for every case but it I think it works really well

and I think the providers really like it so we just already start from the Gecko our line of communication I tell them the patient seems really anxious this is my plan what do you think agree disagree yes the procedural if does the procedure

list or the Lak but I've sedated the patient so the patient if you look at what Jayco describes in the universal protocol it's ideal if they can participate in the timeout however not required because then when they do the

timeout they're right there stabbing them with lidocaine so I like to you know I mean I would argue that by starting I would argue about that by starting at the sedation earlier and getting the patient into a comfortable

state you're more safe because you're doing the dosing appropriately according to the a sa yeah correct right right right

okay I think it's important to say though it's not about getting around Joint Commission this is what Joint Commission says you may feel uncomfortable with it and that's okay

but it is what our accrediting body says is okay we're also not intimating the patient and paralyzing them like an Asst the anesthesiologist is now having said that it's not like we walk the patient in and we go oh I think you're mr. Jones

we throw you on the table there is an initial timeout that's done with the nurse and the technologist and the other people in the room shaking his head yes as so the acceptable amount of time after reversal

yes so if it happens if it happens mid procedure you need to it's I believe the language the a sa uses that you have to have a discussion amongst the care team about whether or not you're going to proceed if it happens after the

procedure in the recovery area or it happens mid procedure and you abort then it has to be at least two hours before you discharge that patient or move them back to their unit where they came from because of that recitation effect and

because you can have really adverse effects from sedation like flumazenil can cause serious delirium I had a patient like that one time it was it was awful and it can cause serious cardiac arrhythmia so at least two hours if you

continue with the procedure I would just make sure everyone knows that you have to be really careful with recitation effects and and all of the adverse effects that you'd be looking at yes I think one more question I'm sorry

with hyperkalemia I have come across I want to say it was in perioperative guidelines when I was looking at the labs that we do cuz we do a lot of unnecessary labs in our department you guys might - I feel like we just really

overdo it I believe the perioperative recommendations are to check a serum potassium if the patient has a reason to have hyperkalemia however right if their hyperkalemic and

they develop a cardiac arrhythmia you know could hypoxia also precipitate that cardiac arrhythmia the results from the hyperkalemia maybe I just went in I wouldn't take an ounce

I would I would consider hyperkalemia severe hyperkalemia and unstable patient because that patient could go into a fatal arrhythmia so I would correct that before you bring them into an elective Percy what's often an elective procedure

so if you're doing a fistula gram you know right five point yeah why are we will go up to five point eight we personally will go up to five point eight because a lot of times they're hyperkalemic

because they're fish too less clothes now and we need to open it right so just again it I don't think there's ever going to be any hard and fast data that you see it's all about making sure everyone knows this patient has a serum

potassium of five point eight we're going to be really closely watching the ECG monitoring yeah thank you everyone thank you so much [Applause]

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