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Radiofrequency Ablation (RFA) - Where it's used | Ablations: Cryo, Microwave, & RFA
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Supplements and over the counter medication and cancer | A Patient's Perspective: From the Other Side of the Glass
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Training of IR Physicians in China | Across the Pond: The state of Interventional Radiology in China
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Indirect Angiography | Interventional Oncology
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Radiofrequency Ablation (RFA) - How it works | Ablations: Cryo, Microwave, & RFA
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Intra Procedure | Transforming from Clinical IR to Clinical Trials with Tirapazamine (TPZ)
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So here's the first case I'm gonna show really quick. I think that the general point that I wanna make here is that a lot of these cases happen from puncturing through the capsule. So this is kind of too far out and I actually don't have a biopsy

picture on this one cause it was back when we weren't as standardized in the way that pictures were taken. But looking at the CTA you can see that there's a blush there. I'm gonna go through these quickly but I will show you. This is the blush on the CTA there. So this was actually not read as a positive study. We had

night hawk/g people reading back when these were performed and that has since changed, but the hemoglobin drop is fairly precipitous and that definitely delayed intervention in this case.

about RF a is that it was the first

ablation that we came up with all those that used it was first used in 1981 and it was really for the first liver ablation that we did RFA if any of you know about a Bovie knife the idea is the same the modality works the same as a

Bovie knife and still the main modality used in many parts of the world in the United States a lot of people will use it in certain areas but it's it's being slowly replaced by microwave ablation with time so as I mentioned some areas

are still using a fair amount of RF aimost or not I can honestly say that I haven't used much RF a at all I was sort of born into the generation of cryo and microwave places where we do use it or very commonly our Nerada meas for pain

control as well as spine ablations if any of you do the osteo cool system with Medtronic will do kyphoplasty in conjunction with an ablation that would be RFA and then Bowden oblations in conjunction with cement organizations

elsewhere right so in the pelvis if there's metastatic disease to the pelvis and you're going to ablate the lesion and then to cement augmentation the I

average IRA awareness outside the Great

Wall know once again Chinese society of interventional radiology their last meeting had 5 500 attendees the one that slated for this ones they have about a seven thousand that should be coming to this year's so they have a large volume

of people that come to these meetings their IR journals and they have multiple IR journals plus they're very well aware they do read the JV IR they do try to stay aware of what's going on internationally so they are very aware

of the intervention that we have and they certainly as a society are developing a much larger and broader base of trying to plug into the international community and one of the things that SI r has has done very well

they established the global ambassador program sending us trained academics over to work as guest lecturing professors and I'm sure if you guys get a chance they've had a couple sessions here go to those sessions it's fantastic

to see the these people that you look at as ko Elle's speak about their experiences in China and I think you'll find that a lot of its kind of correlate to what I'm telling you here they've been very impressed and in some ways a

little frustrated in the availability of doing what they like to do in teaching what they'd like to teach but it is quite an amazing experience and then

what I was alluding to before no procedures a slam dunk a breeze a piece of cake or a snap you know you you can't you can't take for granted what you're

doing even though like like oh it's just another g-tube oh it's just another line I'm I'm chairman of the department I'm the chief of her interventional and I do I do the lines because widely in the audience no well one of you want to be

people Wylie I had him put my line in and he's because he was the best two days later it got infected so no no it happens you know it just happens you can't take all this stuff for granted my oncologist sister had dialysis and they

were removing a Quinton and she got an air embolus and died of 32 it was it's like you can't take this stuff for granted every procedure you think it's just a routine procedure but it's to a patient who it's their lifeline or it's

their it's it's the most important thing to them so you can't take any procedure lightly because any procedure can go wrong and then side-effects if sometimes it's not the tumor that gets you it's the it's the it's the side effects like

the massive PE that I had was from one of the drugs I was on so you have to at least alert the patient that they may have side effects and and here's another one of my things to make you laugh but I had my bone marrow transplant

and I thought my side effect was that my flatus didn't smell anymore and I was informed by the people in the room that it wasn't the flatus it was my nose that didn't smell anymore but I got to do all the UM I got I get to do all

the abscesses now because I have I lost my sense of smell right in fact this was an appendiceal abscess and it really everybody left the room but me because I was the only one who couldn't smell it and I got out there and we do in CT and

I asked the tech I said what the hell does the appendix do anyway and she said oh it hangs there and does nothing I said well after my bone marrow biopsy I have two of those now so waiting for

certainly the face of interventional radiology in China is actually a very

good place to be right now you're talking about young physicians that are really getting involved in the field 58% of all Chinese IR physicians are under 40 years of age and status from 2017 you know 40% are under 35 you're talking

about very young doctors who are growing up in the IR you know field and actually you know really building a young base of physicians to carry IR into the next 20 years 41 percent of those physicians also have degrees outside their their

primary medical degree so master's degrees and doctors that's quite high you'll find out here in the US no like I said in China you don't necessarily have a traditional MD you don't you're not an MD actually it's a

bachelor's of Medicine very similar to the European model but a lot of them and majority of them almost have have advanced degrees so you're talking about very intelligent very young very aggressive people trying to carry this

ball and move it forward and try to join the international community of advancing IR and that was very heartwarming for me and made me feel very good to be with those colleagues and realize where the future lies for that kind of tree and

then 72% are bilingual or multilingual which is certainly much better than the u.s. because the Lord knows I can speak anything I can say come by and and Niihau so bottom line is you have very intellectual people that can communicate

very rarely did I have an issue in getting along and communicating with my colleagues in China and in the end we all speak the same universal language which is I are when I'm at a table and I'm scrubbing with those physicians we

didn't have to talk at all okay we knew what we were looking at we knew what needed to be done and we just did it and that's one thing that's always amazing about this field is that we all can speak the same language regardless of

where we come from so my observations

higher procedures that get done in the country so they are from being basics such as being para sentences and in some

centers being quite complex in Euro work and there are centers where these none of all those that IR procedures being available so it's a very unequal distribution of provision of IR services and like I mentioned earlier on vascular

surgeons and cardiologists have basically taken over the peripheral vascular work and iogic work and other known neuro speciality such as bid early interventions for example saying that these two surgeons who are in some

remote centers who are doing their own provision as biliary basic interventions there is one neuro surgeon who went and had neuro imaging and then your interventional training who is now hundred percent doing a mural

intervention so as far as procedures go my day can be in diagnostic work and you might be dreaming you doing a paracentesis the next thing you might be doing some some I our basic IR and on the same day you might be doing a set

procedure so quite varied but not available in all centers as one would want as fine stuff goes the technology

then supplements I often get the question about supplements and what that my take on the supplements is that um if

it's if it doesn't detract from traditional therapy what the hell why not right I take one pill it's 21 days one chemotherapy pill it's 28 000 bucks so if I buy supplements for 20 bucks a

month big deal right in fact I was in liver failure for two years got three biopsies get all this all the stuff done they couldn't get me out of liver failure and I read some stuff on supplements and I take these 3

supplements my livers been normal since so you can't convince me that they don't work so as long as it doesn't take away from traditional therapy you can go ahead and do it I have a website on our website I have a Facebook page and I

scan the internet every morning and put up put up articles that relate to cancer all cancers you know and screening what's new you know different drugs and lately aspirin ibuprofen caffeine and even even CBDs have been shown to be

effective in certain in certain cancers and we have to keep our eye on that ibuprofen and aspirin actually have been shown to decrease in Demetrio cancer liver cancer caffeine there was a 50% decrease in liver cancer and those

patients who drank a lot of caffeine it also is supposed to be helpful in preventing pancreatic and Demetrio and breast cancer so you just have to keep your eye on this but this is this is my

we talk about there's three different

levels of hospitals now much like the US you're gonna have major tertiary institutions which your large academic centers you're gonna have your smaller centers which are kind of more of your like mid local community hospitals and

then you're gonna have your very small hospitals and China it's a three tier system you have the primary tier which is defined as less than a hundred beds and that's gonna be very limited access that's normally your holistic

medications you're gonna have a lot of TCM traditional chinese medicine practitioners there and they're more worried about health than they are about intervention if you're in a very small town and you have something that you

need done you're probably not gonna go to a tier a primary tier system hospital you just won't be able to get the intervention you don't start seeing interventional radiology till you get to the second tier and that's not only

between 100 and 500 beds and it's mostly moderate size cities that have these and they have your average intervention they'll do basic things like basic biopsy maybe basic line access you won't see many high-end procedures there and

then you have much larger hospitals with your tertiary care centers and those are the ones that have access to the u.s. products the the European products and well tell you in China it's kind of an interesting model of care when you were

looking for availability to be able to treat your patients those tertiary hospitals very much favored using american-made products and devices as well as your pain made products you can't get that in the secondary

hospitals they're either gonna be all Chinese made products you may get some that were made over in other countries in Asia but they certainly are not gonna be the American made products and the reason for that is any product made

outside of China a patient has to pay for it makes intervention not only frustrating but very complex at times and I'll explain that kind of Maya my quick experience with that as well so

you know the most common procedures in China this is kind of interesting I was blown away by this when I did the research on this I knew when I would go

into the hospitals and I was all over for I've been to Beijing shanghai nanjing to even the smallest little place is up in northern china and the one thing that blew me away I'm looking at the board and I'm seeing neuro case

after neuro case after neuro case I'm like it got 10 Narrows and and a pic line I'm like it's an interesting interesting Dysport of cases and the reason being is in China they consider diagnostic neuro

so neuro angio to be the primary evaluating factor for any type of neurological issue so you're not getting a CT if you come in with a headache you think you're gonna go get that cat scan now it's generally what not what they do

so you're talking about a case and I'll give you the case matrix of the break-up it's just proportionately high for a neuro very well trained in neuro and most of the guys that are trying to neuro very similar to what dr. well Saad

said a lot of the guys in Africa are trained in France so other neuro interventions have trained in France or lipstick in China and have received European training on that so you know the level of what they're doing some of

the stroke interventions some of the ways they're going after these complex APM's they'll Rob well anything you'll see here in the US so it is quite interesting to see and the second

largest is taste hepatocellular carcinoma is on the rise it's the highest level in the world is found in China and Korea for that matter and there's many reasons why we can go into it some of it is genetic factors and a

lot of societal factors alcohol is a very liberally lie baited in China and there is problems with you know cirrhotic disease and other things that we know could be particular factors for HCC so always found that very

interesting like I said I would go into a hospital and I'll see a PICC line a hemodialysis catheter and then 20 tase's on the board in one day so it is quite interesting how they do it and then biliary intervention stents tips and

then lung ablation you know the highest rates of HCC biliary cancer and lung cancer found in China and once again when we talk about lung cancer what are those contributing factors you're talking about certainly a genetic

component but mostly it's lifestyle factors smoking is prevalent in the US and in you know in Europe and in some areas in Asia we've seen obviously a big reduction in smoking which is fantastic China not so much you don't see that

it's a societal thing for them and unfortunately that has led to the the largest rates of cancer in the world in lung cancer so lung ablation is a big procedure for them over there as well so procedure breakdown this is kind of some

of that breakdown I was telling you about that cerebral procedure is some of the most commonly performed and you're talking about at very large numbers they're doing neuro intervention because they do it for die

Gnostic purposes and I would that kind of blew me away when I found out they do have cast scanners and certainly for trauma and things like that they'll do it but the majority of the stuff if you come in you have headaches you might end

up in the neuro suite so it's quite interesting how they can do that tumor intervention very high like I said you have the highest rates of HCC in the world you're getting cases they do have y9t available and in fact China just

made their largest acquisition ever with the by what you guys know a company they bought surtex there's a Chinese company now it got bought by China now the interesting is they don't currently have a whole lot of

y9t over there but they just opened up some of their own generators so they can actually start producing the white room 90 and I think you'll see probably a increase in those numbers of y9t cases but to date the number one procedure for

them is taste and they do a lot of them you know like I said on average a community hospital setting you might find 15 or 20 cases a day with three interventionalists so compared to what you guys do there's probably not many

people here unless you're working at a major institution that there's nothing but cancer doing 20 cases a day and I promise you're probably not doing it with only two interventionalists so it's amazing how fast and effective they've

gotten at and below therapy and unfortunately it is necessary because of those elevated HCC levels and like I said when we look at some of these things it's I go over there and I'm looking at the board there are very few

cases for you know PICC lines very few the frosted grams very new bread-and-butter abscess training procedures like we do here in the US they are very it's the prevalence is very simple it's neuro it stays and it's

biopsy and those are some kind of the big three for intervention in China and there it's such a large volume you get to learn a lot when you're over there and CLI PA D even though it's more prevalent in China than it is here

because smoking lifestyle factors certainly westernization of the diet in China which occurred since the 1950s and 60s has led to a lot of McDonald's and and fast food and things that weren't currently available prior to 1950s you

see a lot of PA d but it is very undertreated and certainly talking to some of my colleagues like whom are oh you'll get to see a little bit later on with CLI fighters one of the things that's kind of frustrating for them is

that it is so undertreated it's very common to see amputations in China instead of actually doing pipe in percutaneous intervention they normally like to go too far and you see a lot of amputation certainly above

normal so that's something I think as an interventional initiative when we look at these things coming from a Western perspective it's definitely something we need to pursue a little more aggressively but there it's very little

oh well you're talking about two you know two to three percent you know maybe up to six percent or PID cases very very low levels so equipment in equipment in

predictors of a successful or vascular ization there are several so obviously you know you have a great result Andrew

graphically when you say hey the vessels back that wasn't there before so Payton see if a previously occluded vessel is a good sign but what else improve vessel caliber so after an angioplasty the vessel becomes you know more normal and

caliber the flow velocity increases or the outflow improves you see less collateral so that's a good sign that you've done something good because those collaterals have only gotten large because of increased pressure and the

normal outflow vessel and then increased distal branch opacification Perry procedurally things that you can look at that indicators of success are if the pulses returned or if you have a Doppler signal

that either comes back or goes from a mono phasic I'm not gonna repeat those sounds they were way above my pay grade but go from a mono phasic signal back to a normal triphasic or sometimes even biphasic is pretty close to normal

particularly in diabetics skin discs skin coloration you sit you may see a foot pink up relatively quickly after a good revascularization and actually some patients may develop rube or if they've had prolonged ischemia because their

capillaries are chronically dilated so you now sending flow into chronically dilate a capillary bed and they may get rubriz capillary refill time as you mentioned earlier may decrease to a normal range to less than 5 seconds and

ulcerations I've seen them just begin weeping or bleeding right on the table if you do a really good job upon awaking from sedation patients who have rest paint off and indicate that the pain is gone but you have to remember that

patients with wounds may actually wake up and be in a lot of pain because you're reap refusing an area that's been dead for or dying for a long time so the wound blush is something that I'm always looking for and I'm frustrated if I

don't see it and basically this is analogous to when the when the ulcer begins bleeding after a good revascularization you may see Andrew graphically that there's now a contrast blush in the area of the ulcer and so I

like to mark on the patient usually with a hemostat or something the area of the ulcer and take my final angiogram just to kind of know where it is and to be looking for that it may it not always be visible as it may take time for the

capillary network to adapt to the new flow pathways and for basal spasm to resolve but this is an example of a patient has an ulcer underneath the base of their big toe after revascularize them and you can see

that there's increased perfusion to that area so this is a sign of a good result

know we're running a bit short on time so I want to briefly just touch about

some techniques with comb beam CT which are very helpful to us there are a lot of reasons why you should use comb beam CT it gives us the the most extensive anatomic understanding of vascular territories and the implications for

that with oncology are extremely valuable because of things like margin like we discussed here's an example of a patient who had a high AF P and their bloodstream which tells us that they have a cancer in her liver we can't see

it on the CT there but if you do a cone beam CT it stands up quite nicely why because you're giving levels of contrast that if you were to give them through a peripheral IV it would be toxic to the patient but when you're infusing into a

segment the body tolerates at the problem so patient preparation anxa lysis is key you have them exhale above three seconds prior to that there's a lot of change to how we're doing this people who are introducing radial access

power injection anywhere from about 50 to even sometimes thirty to a hundred percent contrast depends on what phase you're imaging we have a Animoto power injector that allows us to slide what contrast concentration we like a lot of

times people just rely on 30% and do their whole the case with that some people do a hundred percent image quality this is what it looks like when someone's breathing this is very difficult to tell if there's complete

lesion enhancement so if you do your comb beam CT know it looks like this this is trying to coach the patient and try to get them to hold still and then this is the patient after coaching which looks like this so you can tell that you

have a missing portion of the lesion and you have to treat into another segment what about when you're doing an angio and you do a cone beam CT NIT looks like this this is what insufficient counts looks like on comb beam so when you see

these sort of Shell station lines that are going all over the screen you have to raise dose usually in larger patients but this is you know you either slow down the acquisition speed of your comb beam or

you raise dose this is what it looks like after we gave it a higher dose protocol it really changes everything those lines are still there but they're much smaller how do you know if you have enhancement or a narrow artifact you can

repeat with non-contrast CT and give the patient glucagon and you can find the small very these small arteries that pick off the left that commonly profuse the stomach the right gastric artery you can use your comb beam CT to find

non-target evaluation even when your angio doesn't suggest it so this is a patient they have recurrent HCC we didn't angio from here those arteries down there where those coils were looked funny even though the patient was

quote-unquote coiled off we did a comb beam CT and that little squiggly C shape structures that duodenum that's contrast going in it this would be probably a lethal event for the patient or certainly would require surgery if you

treated that much with y9t reposition the catheter deeper towards the lesion and you can repeat your comb beam CT and see that you don't have an hands minh sometimes you have these little accessory left gastric artery this is

where we really need your help you know a lot of times everyone's focused and I think the more eyes the better for these kind of things but we're looking for these little tiny vessels that sometimes hop out of the liver and back into the

stomach or up into the esophagus there's a very very small right gastric artery in this picture here this patient post hepatectomy that rides along the inferior surface of the liver it's a little curly cube so and this is a small

esophageal branch so when you do comb beam TT this is what the stomach looks like when it enhances and this is what the esophagus looks like when it enhances you can do non contrast comb beam CTS to confirm ablation so you have

a lesion this is the comb beam CT for enhancement you treat with your embolic and this is a post to determine that you've had completely shin coverage and you can see how that correlates a response so the last thing we're going

training of I our physicians in China is a little different there is no formal residency or fellowship current training is a rotational extension during diagnostic radiology

so it's on-the-job training basically your OJT there are some training programs that are being developed as we work closely the CSIR is working with SAR to kind of do something that's more of a model-based

similar to the surf society and how they do their training with a with a board or a qualification test but to date that's not the case there's no medical review board or specific certification for vir interventional radiology and like I said

most most ire physicians are domestically trained they're trained in their local hospitals but you do have some physicians and some of the larger academic institutions they've trained over in the United States I've met a

couple that trained in UCLA you know a couple of them that we have our own visiting professors that go over from si R and do some training with them so they do have a high level of training in those larger cities that that would

rival anything you'd find in our own academic institutions China

to talk about is indirect angiography this is kind of a neat trick to suggest to your intervention list as a problem solver we were asked to ablate this lesion and it looked kind of funny this patient had a resection for HCC they

thought this was a recurrence so we bring the comb beam CT and we do an angio and it doesn't enhance so this is an image here of indirect port ography so what you can do is an SMA run and see at which point along the

run do you pacify the portal vein and you just set up your cone beam CT for that time so you just repeat your injection and now your pacifying the entire portal vein even though you haven't selected it and what to show

well this was a portal aneurysm after resection with a little bit of clot in it the patient went on some aspirin and it resolved in three months so back to our first patient what do you do for someone who has HCC that's invading the

heart this patient underwent 2y 90s bland embolization microwave ablation chemotherapy and SBRT and he's an eight-year survivor so it's one of those things where certainly with the correct patient selection you can find the right

things to do for someone I think that usually our best results come from our interdisciplinary consensus in terms of trying to use the unique advantages that individual therapies have and IO is just one of those but this is an important

lesson to our whole group that you know a lot of times you get your best results when you use things like a team approach so in summary there are applications to IO prior to surgery to make people surgical candidates there are definitive

treatments ie your cancer will be treated definitively with curative intent a lot of times we can save when people have tried cure intent and weren't able to and obviously to palliate folks to try to buy them time

and quality of life thermal ablation is safe and effective for small lesions but it's limited by the adjacent anatomy y9t is not an ischemic therapy it's an ablative therapy you're putting small ablative radioactive particles within

the lesion and just using the blood supply as a conduit for your brachytherapy and you can use this as a new admin application to make people safer surgical candidates when you apply to the entire ride a panic globe

thanks everyone appreciate it [Applause] [Music]

deal with radiofrequency ablation is that you have a probe which acts as the

calf the current you then have the pads which act as the anode and when you place the probe in turn it on essentially there's a very small cross-sectional area and there's high flux of energy so lots of

current and then it spreads out over the patient's body and it grounds itself to the grounding pad in so the way is since she works is you generate this very very large alternating current right so the water molecules want to stay in

conjunction with that that current their dipoles arrangement they have positive and minuses and so they're gonna flip around to stay in alignment with that current and that rapid oscillation of those water molecules causes the the

tissue to heat up the way a cinch it works is by coagulation necrosis what does that mean well it's basically cooking a steak it just dies and and that's your your your death related to coagulation necrosis so with our FA

what's important to know is that the molecules immediately next to the probe are what heat up and then everything from there on out heats sort of by passive conduction and I'll describe how microwave works and that's different to

that but the probe tip never gets hot but the molecules immediately adjacent to the probe get hot and and everything propagates from there on out why is that important well it's important because if you rapidly heat the tissue with RFA

you're gonna get charring but some of you might have experienced this when you do the cases the tissue basically gets charred then it increases the the impedance or the ability to conduct it in which case you you limit your ability

to create an ablation all right so charring is a problem and it increases your impedance which is essentially the resistance to making an ablation cavity and then that decreases the ablation size and so that's really

one of the main reasons why people started moving away from RFA is that you really need tissue that's going to conduct this electrical current well and it's difficult to predict what tissue that's gonna be and so the goal with RFA

as with any other thermal ablation is to get the tissue temperature to between 50 and 100 degrees Celsius and then slow temperature rises are best right so however you want to achieve that slow temperature rise you want to do it

slowly rather than a rapid increase which is the opposite really of microwave ablation radiofrequency

next is me talking about Egypt and Ethiopia and how I are how IRS practice in Egypt and Ethiopia and I think feather and Musti is gonna talk a little bit about Ethiopia as well he's got a

lot of experience about in about Ethiopia I chose these two countries to show you the kind of the the the the difference between different countries with within Africa Egypt is the 20th economy worldwide by GDP third largest

economy in Africa by some estimates the largest economy in Africa it's about a hundred million people about a little-little and about thirty percent of the population in the u.s. 15 florist's population worldwide and has

about a little over a hundred ir's right now 15 years ago they had less than ten IRS and fifteen years ago they had maybe two to three IRS at a hundred percent nowadays they're exceeding a hundred IRS so tremendous gross in the last 15 years

in the other hand Ethiopia is a very similar sized country but they only have three to five IRS that are not a hundred percent IRS and are still many of them are under training so there are major differences between countries within

within Africa countries that still need a lot of help and a lot of growth and countries that are like ten fifteen years ahead as far as as far as intervention ready intervention radiology

most of the practice in Ethiopia are basic biopsies drainages and vascular access but there is new workshops with with embolization as well as well as well as vascular access in Egypt the the ir practice is heavily into

interventional oncology and cancer that's the bulk that's the bulk of their of their practices you also get very strong neuro intervention radiology and that's mostly most of these are French trained and not

American trains so they're the neuro IRS in Egypt or heavily French and Belgian trains with with french-speaking influence but the bulk of the body iron that's not neuro is mostly cancer and it involves y9e tastes ablations high-end

ablations there's no cryoablation in Egypt there is high-end like like a nano knife reverse electric race electroporation in Egypt as well but there is no cryo you also get a specialty embolization such as fibroids

prostate and embroiders are big in Egypt they're growing very very rapidly especially prostates hemorrhoids and fibroids is an older one but it's still there's still a lot of growth for fibroid embolization zyou FES in Egypt

there's some portal portal intervention there's a lot of need for that but not a lot of IRS are actually doing portal intervention and then there's nonvascular such as billary gu there's also vascular access a lot of

the vascular access is actually done by nephrology and is not done by not not done by r is done by some high RS varicose veins done by vascular surgery and done by IRS as an outpatient there's a lot of visceral angiography as well

renal and transplants stuff so it's pretty high ends they do not do P ad very few IR s and maybe probably two IR s in the country that actually do P ad the the rest of the P ad is actually endovascular PA DS done by vascular

surgery a Horta is done all by vascular surgery and cardiothoracic surgery it's not done it's not done by IR IR s are asked just to help with embolization sometimes help with trying to get a catheter in a certain area but it's

really run by by vascular surgeons but but most more or less it's it's the whole gamut and I'm going to give you a little example of how things are different that when it comes to a Kannamma 'kz there's no dialysis work

they don't do Pfister grams they don't do D clots the reason for that is the vascular surgeons are actually very good at establishing fishless and they usually don't have a

lot of problems with it sometimes if the fistula is from Beau's door narrowed it's surgically revised they do a surgical thrombectomy because it's a lot cheaper it's a lot cheaper than balloons sheaths and and trying to and try a TPA

is very expensive it's a lot cheaper for a surgeon to just clean it out surgically and resuture it there's no there's no inventory there are no expensive consumables so we don't see dialysis as far as fistula or dialysis

conduits at all in Egypt and that's usually a trend in developed in developed countries next we'll talk

to have severe humor billion almost all all those that need your attention is about aghori portal veins though can be tremendously so the differentiation between hepatic artery and portal vein

bleeding is the big differentiator that will require you to do something about it most of the times if you injure the portal vein or hepatic vein these usually heal by themselves and it's counterintuitive the management of this

is actually to upsize your tube and they make sure the side holes are not adjacent to the bleeding vein it's crossing so it's counterintuitive that you upsize - for bleeding injure the vein more but

eventually those veins will thromboses off for that little branch the difficult situations of sahiba heavy hit an artery and here's one way we did a gram you can see the pacification the reason why you want to go into the peripheral duct I'll

show you always near the hilum is actually also very big blood are the blood vessels and the reason why we go peripheral the number of large vessels are much greater diminished so you always want in this patient was

transferred for an outside Hospital my PTC was performed by someone who obviously doesn't do a lot of these and access directly into the coma bar duct you can see all these filling defects all these filling defects in the combat

like those or clots and filled with someone who's actually had life-threatening significant he Mobilia and required what we did was they were just pacify the system get another peripheral access

right biliary system and embolize the track coming out and thereby removing the original axis that was placed by the outside hospital interventionists obviously the ones that aureus the most of the narco that will kill people is

the ones that hit our ease and pseudoaneurysm formation or tara Venus fistulas and I can be problematic in my only real ways their dresses trans cap the treatments a patient would have an angio we'd have to get into the pedagogy

find the feeding or it almost always though and we can predict way that bleeding artery is it's where your Y is crossing the architecture of the artery tree frequently you will not see it until you remove the tube so almost

always you would have to prep the right flank prep the groin to an angiogram with the tube in because you don't really want to be rushing at the beginning of your procedure you frequently do the angiogram not see

bleeding and then a second operator needs the described brake scrub get non sterile axes remove the blue tube repeat the angiogram and almost certainly then you'll see it but again it's very

predictable where it is but every now and then you get caught out and the bleeding side can be remote from where your actual Y or actual access transgressor you you do need to have a careful eye looking for that and so you

know when we looked at out and we do large numbers of blurry drainage the best predictor or and like I said Arturo Kimber Billy is actually related to your first tube and the size that you place and it's also

interesting like I said every now and then you're gonna see that bleeding arteries are actually not liver arteries and you can't bleed from the GDA internal memory from other procedures intercostal artery from where you put

your tube first needle through the liver through sorry through the ribs itself it's actually access site rather than your internal parenchymal your liver so it's actually important to also do sometimes it a water gram check the

intercostal artery because you'll miss it by doing a celiac or teragrams hepatic artery gram and don't understand why the patients still bleeding and here's just example of what a pseudoaneurysm does when we remove the

chief we can see the image on the right the blue tube has mean withdraw back and they you can see quite clearly there and sorry the pseudoaneurysm of the paddock right re and like any other immunization is important to go front door back door

implies across mainly because the liver architecture has a rich collateralization that will feed before and after and like I said the lake complication zone was or derived and related to tube maintenance and tubes

catching on to things in dislodgement and so these are just really you know your whoever answers the phones whether it's the physicians on call they have to manage with maintenance of these tubes and really just keeping these tubes open

as long as possible it's amazing how long some of these tubes do last in particular in benign but Lewis structures so management of these is really or expectant and the right advice and frequently just need to

get these tubes changements they're clogged sufficiently the difficult ones

interventional research once again China because prior to the 1950s obviously with the Communist revolution and the socialist revolution there it was a kind

of very closed off country but in the past ten years of research true interventional radiology research has increased tenfold because of the opening of domestic borders because of the more internationalization

of China they actually started submitting things into international journals started looking at their IRB processes and I think we will see even more so you're gonna see more and more complex research coming out of China

they've applied more stringent application of IRB standards which has allowed their research to be more acceptable outside of China and the one thing that makes it hard for China to actually produce a high volume of

research is that they get no government funding there's no NIH to be able to provide specific standard funding and there's no medical device company to do funding as well so it's basically academic Hospital making a decision to

do a study and paying for the study that's the one limitation they do have specifically for interventional radiology and producing more relevant and pertinent to academic studies so

thistle NS until cysteine and turmeric I take a ton of tumeric

I'm not I'm not advocating that so if anybody goes in home and has an allergic reaction to American dies it's not my fault but ya know it was it was frustrating as hell I'm you know I my labs were worse than the patient's I had

25 000 platelets and I was just getting frustrated and you know especially living in New Orleans because really in New Orleans you know everything no matter what you start drinking at seven o'clock in the morning you know and and

I am so I sat down and I've read a bunch of articles and I started doing it and it worked for me and it worked right away I mean within two months and everybody was saying oh it's just coincidence I said well then give me

more coincidence but then my son has JRA and he was on methotrexate his liver enzyme started going up we started him on the same regimen bump then went right down so I mean if it works for you it works for you you know an asset feels

cysteine it's it's you have to what's that an acid cysteine it's what they use for liver toxicity when somebody comes in with Tylenol toxicity so I actually worked with a with a met a medical doctor and we came up with the combo and

and it's worked for me but you know turmeric works for for for some people it doesn't work for other people you know a but but well the bottom line is if somebody thinks it's working don't you know I have I have people say

doctors go well that's just crap well I'm very lucky because the medicine Amman causes neuropathy which is horrible you know I don't know if anybody's had neuropathy but it's so it's like your hands are your hands are

in pain your toes are in pain so I like I'm beefed up on B vitamins you know and I and I hear all the other people complaining about neuropathy and I'm fortunate that I don't have it and if it's the b-vitamins great if it's

if I'm just lucky I don't care but I'm taking the B vitamins for eight bucks a month you know what I mean you know it's it's different supplements work for different people you know but just don't deprive them

don't there's some guys who just use supplements oh that's just crap you know that's not fair to the patient you you mentioned it

finally intraoperative considerations positioning for comb bean tpz photo

sensitivity EKG and lab draws and noting the time of tpz injection so i wanted to say a little bit about comb beam all right who has comb beam at their facility just a few less okay comb beam is medical imaging technique consisting

of x-ray computed tomography where the x-rays are divergent forming a cone the scanning software collects the data and reconstructs it producing what is termed a digital volume composed of three dimensional voxels of anatomical data

that can then be manipulated and visualized with specialized software on the left is a standard floral image and on the right is the comb beam so the red shows the vascular angiography the blue is a tumor and the yellow is a feeding

artery to the term or so dr. Abuja lays a B today is heavily involved with research so the procedure room with Combee was exclusively constructed for her so positioning for comb beam I believe

to be the bigger challenge initially comb being requires the patient to have their arms up high and using comb beam technology increases the procedural time it would be difficult for the patients to maintain that position and keep still

without anesthesia we started clinical trials with nurse assisted moderate sedation and soon learned it was very difficult the majority of our HCC embolization --zz are done with with sedation but we're

now using anesthesia for all of it so the lead in this case was Tom the radiology tech which assisted with the placement of the anesthesia equipment and patient positioning our anesthesia personnel are not only out of their

comfort zone in the I are sweet but unfamiliar with tpz trial and how the comb beam equipment rotates completely around the patient the patient is wearing two sets of leads one for anesthesia and the other for research

the leads are radio translucent to reduce artifact and imaging keeping the lid lid lead in the department took some getting used to one set got thrown away one set was found up in the ICU one set was on the

anesthesia equipment it was hard keeping track of our special equipment there so the pulse oximetry and blood pressure are on the lower extremities for cone beam again to avoid artifact and imaging when we first

started using cone beam the nursing staff administering sedation were disconnecting patients from monitoring so there were short interruptions with viewing vital signs it became risky and time-consuming to do

so during the procedure one set of EKGs triplicates are done just prior to tpz injection so the treat the EKG triplicates are basically they're two minutes apart in sets of three and lastly having to keep the tpz in a brown

bag and protected from light during the transfer nurse to position there's the photo on the left upper corner doctor busy day basically draws a tpz through a three-way stopcock under a sterile towel

while the nurse keeps the syringe in the brown bag poking a hole in the bag just to NIF to just enough to expose the tip of the syringe and attach it to the three-way this way the tpz is protected from light these reminder adjustments

however they were difficult from the standard and it took time for all the nurses and techs to adjust all right so this here is just a group photo Tom I've got Tyler on the right Thanh our technologist and ELISA and myself so I

thought this was a good photo to represent radiology many specialties consult two IR but it just isn't quite known yet by the general population and surprisingly by the medical staff as well there is a quote by dr. Rosa be

published quote the reason the public doesn't quite understand is we deal with so many disease entities and so many body parts it's hard to brand us unquote so I don't know if you guys were aware but interventional radiology is now its

own medical specialty so hepatocellular carcinoma is a primary malignancy of the liver and now the third leading cause of cancer deaths worldwide with over

so a couple a couple of ground rules first of all I'm a fish out of water I'm not your stereotypical position and I always say that uh that that's how I ended up in New Orleans because you can get lost in New Orleans if you're crazy and I said I didn't get I didn't go to

that course where they inserted this stick in your rectum in medical school so I am not politically correct okay and I don't know if any of you know the Jimmy Valvano story but um you know he got up there in front of everybody and

said I got a hundred and fifty holes in my bone so I want to see a little red light blinking what are you gonna do to me and well I'm similar to that if I'm not politically correct and you're offended I would please leave now

because there's nothing you can do to me because I'm on my way out anyway so it doesn't matter but and it's really funny that I just walked in when Vicki marks was talking and I think I'm a product of the early days of interventional because

we would do cases for eight hours and get eight hours of flora back to back it was that when we learned in tips when we were learning and after you read oral and we just take our badge and throw it and and I swear that that's the reason

why I ended up with myeloma anyway so some of this stuff I'm going to talk about I always like to insert humor so it does so it's not morbid and there are slides sometimes I'm you know being Italian I'm

kind of a wuss I cry at raindrops and and some sometimes I cannot get through the slide because it brings back kind of kind of crummy memories but anyway so I entitled this from the other side of the glass and I actually Photoshop that's me

looking at me getting treated in CT so I

I think we've talked a lot about this all through the this conference and with

our SAR partners about the vulnerabilities into the procedure areas we have a heightened risk of adverse events in procedures that are happening in nan-oh our areas ironically you know again the patients are twos deemed too

sick to go to the OU are and they come down to a remote area an interventional radiology hence the need for standards and streamlining and communicate and collaboration again we have you know increased acuity of our patient

population again increased volume of low-risk procedures on high-risk patients remote settings within the hospital our interventional radiology suite was buried behind our radiology department behind Diagnostics it was you

know signage wasn't very good and you know it was behind two double doors that needed to have badge access so that was oftentimes you know something it's minor but it was major when there was an emergency there was a lack of

significant team-building training and I can talk we'll talk a little bit about what kind of things you can do in your organization's that are really low cost for team-building training and then the procedure lists we know that they're

experts in their procedures but they're not trained in crisis management so and they you know luckily I have a team and I had a team of physicians that were aware of that and so we worked on methods of changing that supporting them

and supporting our team so again safety

any questions at all so it's very diversified you know most physicians as I stated they don't have a residency I

out you know our fellowship so technologists are in most cases more integrated than cases than you would think here in the US you know a lot of fellowship and residency programs as you know when you have a resident fellow

there their Co scrubbing or they're doing the primary case by themselves whereas they're because you don't have that type of formalized residency structure the interventional technologies is doing all the case

within a physician and that's one of those things that one of the initiatives I'm working on is giving some I are technologists over to help train some of these guys show them how we do it here in the US share and kind of give back

and forth information something that's desperately you need to over in China any other questions thank you guys very much you guys made it through congratulations

good afternoon thank you so much for invitation to speak to you I have a privilege of working at Johns Hopkins and we have a fairly large practice we at the main hospital itself we have 11 rooms and during a day about two of them are have a biliary case actually going

on at the same time so it's actually a fairly large volume of our practice and so the gamut of bluie intervention goes from really simple stuff to really complex and it is something that our trainees specifically will come to

Hopkins for and many of times they will end up being the blurry and experts as soon as they arrive at a new practice so certainly it's something that we deal with every day I just wanted to give you a landscape overview and share some good

cases that we've done and hopefully you may something have some comments or learn something about the way we do it but I'm pretty sure throughout the country a lot of great Billu work has been done currently there's no question

though the Blooey access and access to the Blooey system has really been played out in most hospitals perth by GI and ir and obviously surgery but almost a lesser so today and the rat in at least four IR is the PTC PPD or transparent

Col angiogram but it's actually a recurring role and I actually speak and have a sort of special interest in transit paddock colonoscopy as well so we play scopes through the skin through the liver and do a lot of balloon

intervention I'll show you a few cases like that but in true these access points are germane to what specialty you come from and obviously endoscopic beeper oral and if you eye are usually usually through the skin and there's no

question GI now in some hospitals I'm sure you have advanced endoscopy that will go through the stomach straight into the leftover liver so there's no question of a blurry landscape is changing quickly but no question that

this is quite common but yet most patients and internal medicine specialties will be looking at blurry disease by access point through scopes through ercp so going back from the Duden up or directly through in there's

advantages disadvantages something it's fairly obvious to everybody that you know no question is selling it to a patient if it had both choices that ERCP through the mouth and nothing invasive nothing sticking out their body

is attractive yet the outcomes are very similar but nonetheless there's pros and cons and through the trance of had a crap or two percutaneous route you do definitely have tubes at least sticking out

initially and this is often solved by GI as the main differentiator at least a discomfort but yet we are able to address almost every problem at times and often where'd they pay a lot there's

we do drain the Louie systems we actually do this extremely successfully as interventional radiologists and it's a very high technical success like I said in this sort of supine position

from the mid-axillary line and these things are and you've seen a lot of these how these done really you need to pacify the system you get trans you most post people go trends in to cost Albany because the liver sometimes can be

tucked up way above and we usually want to make sure that the lung and the costophrenic angle doesn't come down low in nothing I take a deep inspiration first to make sure that you're not dealing with and then we now map your

track than you find some people do this with ultrasound guidance frequently with and dilated structures and most of the time it's actually much probably routine to actually do blind passes in the like I said the path of high success and to

pull back when you a passive our blue system is the only structure that doesn't wash away generally portal vein hepatic vein hepatic artery all of those structures are cylindrical

tubule alike are not are going to wash away move away and quite quickly and you can see this PDC and show in fact a left insertion of a right into your ductal system and frequently this will be something that we would have to make

people watch out like I said identification of choosing the right duct thereafter after you've identified you've performed a color angiogram is to identify how you're going to drain this and the most important thing to identify

is a peripheral duct doesn't matter which one there are ones with higher success but then within the lateral position find one market on the table then with a second axis as a to stick axis and I'm sure this is very germane

and common you've seen get into the peripheral duct and the AP fluoroscopy get a wide down you get a tube down and then eventually go it with a coaxial system getting a skinny wire converted to a larger wire and then following that

with a below a tube and your goal is to really get axis that goes transpannic through a perfect century through obstruction or no obstruction if it's just untie elated and through into the small bowel and lock a some type of

locking system it's interesting the size that you choose does make it different so if you go larger than the 12 french-trained initially the risk of bleeding actually goes above 10% for initial axis so the best is to probably

start with a 8 and 10 and that's what we typically do this is what we connect what it ends up looking like left a

no way around this I'm gonna read to you the inclusion criteria right off the protocol it's kind of long so confirmed diagnosis I wrote some single line there that can help you follow along confirm diagnosis of HCC number two patients

above age 23 patients with single or multiple nodules HCC who are unsuitable or unwilling for surgical resection or RFA the largest tumor nodule should be less than 10 centimeters in the large largest diameter total volume of tumor

cannot exceed 50% of the liver patients are candidates for trans arterial embolisation no tumor invasion to portal vein or thrombosis and main and first branch of the portal vein 5 patients have no lymph node involvement or

distant metastasis 6 ECoG score at 0 to 1 with no known cardiac pulmonary or renal dysfunction 7 child pew score group a and B 7 eight patient should have measurable disease by contrast MRI nine prior local

therapies such as surgical resection radiofrequency ablation and alcohol injection are allowed as long as tumor progresses from the prior treatment and the patients are still candidates for tae 10 patients have normal organ

function based on some labs eleven patients are able to understand and willing to sign the informed consent and twelve men and women of childbearing age need to commit to using two methods of contraception and the exclusion criteria

you know Global Opportunities I'm

encouraging you guys to get involved as I are colleagues technologists mid-levels physicians they want you over there and there's many different initiatives sio has a fantastic initiative which focuses on China and

Latin America some of the kos here have had the ability to travel of China and learn you know you're bringing stuff to the table they're to China and they're sharing their knowledge and information with you and knowledge exchange is key

and crucial to advancing interventional radiology now and in the future and then certainly as technologists there's great opportunities rad eight who's quite right outside I just saw them that's a great organization you're gonna get an

opportunity to go to learn to travel a place like Tanzania go to Africa and you got to see my colleague for Carol ma zouri who's a good friend and a mentor talk a little bit about what it's like to be able to perform procedures over

there reach out do something for yourself okay cuz not only when you travel you enrich yourself but you enrich the world around you and in the end that's what I'm gonna leave you with get out learn grow meet

your colleagues overseas have a laugh drink some mal Thai say goodbye thank you very much

and these are just my personal observations I'm gonna make this quick because you got a great presenter following me and I don't want to push off dr. rustling too much longer but

compassion and smile are universal I didn't need to speak Mandarin to be able to understand what was going on and certainly when I'm at that scrub table and I'm performing procedures on patients we all could smile and laugh

and figure out what was going on very quickly without too much into discussion and so that's the one thing I would always say when you go smiles contagious wherever you are in this world everyone likes to smile

second thing is everything is your usable what you think it should be or not doesn't matter you can reuse it I found that one out betadine is amazing everything is reusable overseas you'll figure that one out quickly informed

healthcare is at a higher level in China and what I mean by that is when you have to have your patient pay for a $2000 stent yeah informed healthcare is amazing because you're gonna pull the patient's family in and you're gonna

talk to them and they're gonna have to make very important decisions about healthcare which is dependent on what type of finances they have and it's kind of sad unfortunately you know I would hope we

can go into a big long debate about US healthcare and everything else but in the end the sheet you put that Stinton if I need to put that stent in and then we'll worry about the finances later on it's

not that way over in there so that can be very frustrating for a clinician he's trying to do what he feels is best or if she feels is best for their patient and they can't you'll find no better MacGyver's than in china and then in

overseas because they will make it work no it's gonna fit no matter what what size fit you have it doesn't matter we'll make it work so it's it is amazing you will find some macgyvering going over there that's

quite fascinating more tase's and i've ever seen in my life you want to learn interventional oncology and you haven't done a taste procedure go to China for a week you're gonna come back and be an expert whether you want to be or not

that's de-facto and certainly the younger I are physicians strong knowledge base of clinically what's going on and excited to plug into their colleagues overseas they want to know what we're doing here in the US

they want to know what they're doing in Europe they want to know about the latest studies and that's exciting to me as a clinician to be able to share that and see that that future there is a strong and bright future for

interventional radiology and when

these are the difficulties that I find

in provision of care and when I talk to some Mike in China they definitely commiserate in this what they were telling me that they feel are some of the issues they have you know simonin limits access to

international based medical products it's it's coming up with protectionism they want their products utilized well unfortunately there is a perception that some of these products that were made originally in China and probably not so

much nowadays been in the past we're not exactly up to the same type of you know Quality Assurance levels as US based or European products and that made it very difficult you know guys would go and they would learn in in the Western

world they'd be doing all these different studies and research reading what we're doing over here and then they wouldn't have access to the products or the procedures to take care of their patients the second thing

it's kind of difficult is CFDA which is Chinese version of the FDA they very much limit access and is very hard to get a product from overseas from Europe or to us into China they require in China in-country clinical studies they

require multiple products to actually evaluate so if you want to send us a where we're merit since I have some of my colleagues from Mary here and you wanted to send a product to get evaluated in China they can hold on to

and take up to three years for evaluation they'll last for about 4 000 units to evaluate and then they reverse-engineer them send them back to you and deny your Chinese your CFDA application their masters reverse

engineering so medical device companies are very hesitant sometimes to send their IP products over because international patents are not really covered in Chinese law so they can't knock these products off and and I think

the hardest thing is that patients are required to pay for products that are not made in country so when you're doing intervention I came across this when I was doing intervention and I was very blessed to be able to get credentials

and do intervention over there I would be doing a mather in her case and we had been ovo stents up which I've just got the you know approval here in the US by the FDA two weeks ago they've been using him there for almost two years but the

problem that we had with that is that the patient would have had to pay for them so I'm doing intervention and Manor you have to stent mather no you cannot just balloon it it's not effective and you'll have residual restenosis I had to

stop the procedure get the patients family and explain what was going on and offer them the stent and if they couldn't pay it we got him off the table and we were done and they ended up there I'm bussing their leg off again and

unfortunately that happened you know on one of my patients in his very fresh string is a Western provider clinician who's used to having the ability to do those things you just can't so it's it was definitely a frustrating thing for

me and certainly frustrating for the Chinese physicians and interventional study are there that know what they need to do but don't have access to the products readily or can't make their patients pay for these things because

they can't afford them and also it's kind of coming from a u.s. perspective we're used to single use of products over there there's no such thing as a you know one use disposable they will restore lies things that were not made

to be rese terrorized and as a Western clinician coming over there that's totally against everything we've ever thought about but you just kind of accept that practice and realize it's what's gonna happen so it's it's kind of

interesting I've saw you know IVC filters that were sterilized and we use after being in patients they do what they got to do and so these interesting those are some of the things you need to remember think about considerations

that's different than your ideologies that you were trained in in Western

medicine so very innovative though I will tell you necessity is the mother of all inventions right so if I can't get a hold of these products that I'm reading

about they they come up with some of their own products and some of their own procedures that were very innovative specially in the the world of IO SCI lastik intrahepatic biliary stands are very common over there they were

actually innovated over in China of radionuclide impregnated pillory stents imagine taking y9t shoving them in billary stents and putting them in to treat biliary cancer in atresia they do that quite readily over there we don't

do that here in the US but we're experimenting with it intravascular catheter directed gene therapy actually started in China pre portal vein thrombus to me for transplant liver functionality they do

that very commonly we just consider a very complex procedure over here catheter directed stem cell treatment for focal after mattis lesions they do that instead of doing stents over there and they're all innovated in China so as

I said necessity is the mother all of invention and when you go overseas and you get to work with some of your interventional colleagues who do not have access to what we currently have here in the Western medicine world

you'll be amazed at some of the stuff they've come up with it try to treat their patients so from American

good morning everybody's how's everybody doing today so I'm three coffees in you're gonna have to hold on for the ride it's gonna get pretty quick but what I am gonna do is gonna be talking a little bit today about the interventional market in China

specifically you know one of the things that I'm very blessed to do with my role that's of global roles I travel all over the place and dealing with colleagues and people overseas getting an understanding of how we do intervention

some places doing intervention overseas so I get a different perspective in China's a very unique market to do intervention for the interventionist for the patients and certainly for companies that are trying to come in to China from

the United States Great Britain overseas it's a different market something totally different than what we're used to here in the US now has anybody here ever traveled to China any hands well Christian put your hand down I know you

did excellent well I was gonna say if the room was full of people that traveled the China's gonna drop the mic and walk out get another cup of coffee but what we're gonna talk about a little bit is kind of my perspective on things

and I will tell you I'm a little non-traditional and how I do things just these right here in my my disclosures and like I said I do like long walks on the beach fluffy clouds cotton candy and I really do wish I

could grow a mustache like Jim kratie you guys like that mustache right pretty fantastic it's like Wyatt Earp come on you'll love that so let's talk about trying a little

thank you so much for inviting me and to speak at this session so I'm gonna share with you a save a disaster and a save hopefully my disclosures which aren't related so this is a 59 year old female she's lovely with a history of locally advanced pancreatic cancer back in 2016

and and she presented with biliary and gastric outlet obstructions so she underwent scenting so there was a free communication of the biliary system with the GI system she underwent chemo and radiation and actually did really well

and she presents to her local doctor in 2018 with ascites they tap the ascites that's benign and they'll do a workup and she just also happens to have n stage liver disease and cirrhosis due to alcohol abuse in her life so just very

unlucky very unfortunate and the request comes and it's for a paracentesis which you know pretty you know standard she has refractory ascites and because she has refractory ascites tips and this is a problem because the pointer doesn't

work because a her biliary system is in communication with the GI system right so there's lots of bugs sitting in the bile ducts because of all these stents that have opened up the bile duct to list to the duodenum and so you know

like any good individual I usually ask my colleagues you know there's way more smart people in the world than me and and and so I say well what should I do and and you know there was a very loud voice that said do not do a tips you

know there there's no way you should do a tips in this person maybe just put in a tunnel at drainage catheter and then there was well maybe you should do a tips but if you do a tips don't use a Viator don't use a covered stand use a

wall stunt a non-covered stunt because you could have the bacteria that live in the GI tract get on the the PTFE and and you get tip situs which is a disaster and then there was someone who said well you should do a bowel prep you

like make her life miserable and you know give her lots of antibiotics and then you should do a tips and then it's like well what kind of tips and they're like I don't know maybe you should do a covered said no not a covered tonight

and then they're you know and then there was there was a other voice that said just do a tips you know just do the damn tips and go for it so I did it would you know very nice anatomy tips was placed she did well

the next day she has fevers and and her blood cultures come back positive right and you can see in the circle that there's a little bit of low density around the tips in the liver and so they put her on IV antibiotics and then they

got an ultrasound a week later and the tips that occluded and then they got a CT just to prove that the ultrasound actually worked so this really hurt my gosh to rub it in just to rub it in just just to confirm that your tips occlude

it and so you know I feel not so great about myself and particularly because I work in an institution that defined tip seclusion was one of the first people so gene Laberge is one of my colleagues back in the day demonstrated Y tips

occludes and one of the reasons is because it's in communication with the biliary system so bile is very toxic actually and when it gets into the the lining of the tips it causes a thrombosis and when they would go and

open these up they would see green mile or biome components in the in the thrombus so I felt particularly bad and so and then I went back and I looked and I was like you know what the tips is short but it's not short in the way that

it usually is usually it's short at the top and they people don't extend it to the to the outflow of the hepatic vein here I hadn't extended it fully in and it was probably in communication with a bile duct which was also you know living

with lots of bacteria which is why she got you know bacteremia so just because we want to do more imaging cuz you know god forbid you know you got the ultrasound of her they because she was back to remake and

you know that and potentially subject they got an echo just to make sure that she doesn't have endocarditis and they find out that she has a small p fo so what happens when you have a thrombosed tips you go back in there and you do a

tips or vision you line it with a beautiful new stent that you put in appropriately but would you do that when the patient has a shunt going from one side of the heart to the other so going from the right to the left so sort of

similar to that case right and so what do we do so I you know certainly not the smartest person in the room we've demonstrated that so I go and I asked my colleagues and so the loud voice of saying you know I told you this is why

we don't practice this kind of medicine and then there was someone who said why don't we anticoagulate her and I was like are you kidding me like you know do you think a little lovenox is gonna cure this and then the same person who said

we should do a tunnel dialysis tile the tunnel drainage catheter or like a polar X was like how about a poor X in here like thanks man we're kind of late for that what about thrombolysis and then you

know the most important WWJ be deed you guys are you familiar with that no what would Jim Benenati do that's that's that's the most important thing right so so of course you know I called Miami he's you know in a but in a big case you

know comes and helps me out and and I'm like what do I do and you know he's like just just go for it you know I mean there are thirty percent of the people that we see in the world have a efo it's very small and it probably doesn't do

anything but you know I got to tell you I was really nervous I went and I talked to miner our colleagues I made sure that the best guy who was you know available for stroke would be around in case I were to shower emboli I don't even know

what he would do I mean maybe take her and you know thrombolysis you know her like MCA or something I don't know I just wanted him to be around it just made me feel good and then I talked to another one of my favorite advisors

buland Arslan who who also was at UVA and he said why don't you instead of just going in there and mucking around with this clot especially because you have this shunt why don't you just thrown belay sit and then you

know and then see what happens and so here I brought her down EKOS catheter and I dripped a TPA for 24 hours and you know I made her do this with local I didn't give her any sedation because I wanted and it's not so painful and I

just wanted her to be awake so I could make sure that she isn't you took an intervention location you turned it into internal medicine I I did work you know that's that's you know I care right you know we're clinicians and so she was

fine she was very appreciative I had a penumbra the the the Indigo system around the next day in case I needed to go and do some aspiration thrombectomy and what do you know you know the next day it all opened up and you can still

see that the tips is short the uncovered portion which is which is you know past the ring I'm sorry that which is below the ring into the portal vein is not seated well so that was my error and and there was a little bit of clot there so

what I ended up doing is I ended up balloon dilating it placing another Viator and extending it into the portal vein so it's covered so she did very

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