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Introduction - Percutaneous Fistula Creation | Pecutaneous Creation of Hemodialysis Fistulas
Introduction - Percutaneous Fistula Creation | Pecutaneous Creation of Hemodialysis Fistulas
Surgical AV Fistula  | Pecutaneous Creation of Hemodialysis Fistulas
Surgical AV Fistula | Pecutaneous Creation of Hemodialysis Fistulas
Creating a Deep Fistula | Pecutaneous Creation of Hemodialysis Fistulas
Creating a Deep Fistula | Pecutaneous Creation of Hemodialysis Fistulas
The Procedure - Creating a Deep Fistula | Pecutaneous Creation of Hemodialysis Fistulas
The Procedure - Creating a Deep Fistula | Pecutaneous Creation of Hemodialysis Fistulas
anastomosisarteryAvenu MedicalballoonbrachialcephalicchaptercreationdeviceEllipsysFistulaflowflowinglinesneedleperforatingperforatorpiccproximalpuncturepuncturedradialsurgicalultrasoundvein
Results of the US FDA Trial | Pecutaneous Creation of Hemodialysis Fistulas
Results of the US FDA Trial | Pecutaneous Creation of Hemodialysis Fistulas
anastomosisangiogramangioplastyarteryBARDBD EverlinQ (4Fr & 6Fr)brachialcalcifiedcatheterschaptercreatedevicedevicesDialysiselectrodeembolizationembolizeendpointsenergyFistulafistulasflowfrenchmagnetsmaturationofficialpercutaneousperforatorpositionpseudoaneurysmradialradiofrequencysaddlesitssurgeonsurgicallyulnarveinvena
Who is a Candidate for AVF | Pecutaneous Creation of Hemodialysis Fistulas
Who is a Candidate for AVF | Pecutaneous Creation of Hemodialysis Fistulas
Research and Data Behind the AVF Procedure | Pecutaneous Creation of Hemodialysis Fistulas
Research and Data Behind the AVF Procedure | Pecutaneous Creation of Hemodialysis Fistulas
Successes of EndoAVF Creation | Pecutaneous Creation of Hemodialysis Fistulas
Successes of EndoAVF Creation | Pecutaneous Creation of Hemodialysis Fistulas
Q&A - Percutaneous Fistula Creation | Pecutaneous Creation of Hemodialysis Fistulas
Q&A - Percutaneous Fistula Creation | Pecutaneous Creation of Hemodialysis Fistulas

good morning thank you all for braving 8:00 a.m. and I'm sure you were in bed last night early about 8:30 and really enjoyed getting up for this lecture but here it is so this seems to be one of the you know there's a couple of buzzes around the meeting this year pardon my

voice I wish I was up to like what I wasn't and one of the buzzes percutaneous fistulas and then there's this extreme IR then there's this 3d virtual reality stuff is going around so in Orangeburg ER we're fortunate enough

to be very much involved with both of the newly approved fda devices what she also didn't mention was I was a technologist for eight years before I went to medical school so I kind of know where you're coming from that's why I

really enjoy not speaking to you if it's not for you guys and what you make us look good and I believe me so here's my disclosures someone said you should do well on these I said one I'm looking for more if anyone else is out there knows

any studies or anything they want me to do I'm happy to do them so I'm always looking for more disclosures after they office Access Institute in Orangeburg a little sleepy town about three-quarters of the way up from

Charleston towards Columbia John Ross built this amazing facility we are separate from the hospital you can see the hospital a little bit in the back a little bit in the back there but we're totally separate unit if you're

not familiar with us you've got six operating rooms totally dedicated to dialysis access know nothing else goes on there pardon me there's the clinical area waiting the preoperative and

post-operative a holding area there in the room for about 20 patients we do anywhere from 20 20 to 40 45 patients a day all things peritoneal hemodialysis access creation d clots angioplasty and percutaneous I think that was off the

first case for hemodialysis porcinis access and you see Jeff hole there the one of the developers of the ellipsis device I'm sort of just under the light and the caption is usually how many physicians does it take to put in a

percutaneous access a lot of them on the right this is a totally ultrasound mediated placement and then you can see that's what you get when you connect the artery in the vein you get that very beautiful color flow Doppler of a

perforating thing into a radial artery we'll talk about that now being down south I have had to get I've learned to get used to a chicken and biscuits for breakfast which I've never had to deal with before but it's all been quite

nicely folks been very nice to us so a little trip down memory lane and if you recognize this this is one of the first external officials for hemodialysis you know shrimper shunt and that was followed by of course many fistula sites

there you can see on the Left fistula sites up the radial radial ulnar element and radial cephalic rather of course called the breccia semitic fistula and should go up higher I want you to call your attention to right by the elbow

that area is where the site of percutaneous fistulas today are mostly created and these are deep fish to this and we'll get into what that means in just a moment and of course grafts there on the right

but it's a little bit out of the topic

today okay go forward so sorry now when it says is there any commercial bias really there's only two companies that have this device so if I speak about each one clearly there's going to be a

little bit of commercial discussion but as I people always ask me which one do you prefer and I always have to tell them quickly you know I'm not a salesman for either company as a matter of fact I'm more

like a test pilot and we're still in the very early stages of this and which device may be better however you wanted to find that or easier to use or what the data is going to show we don't really know yet so but we're fortunate

that we have access to both devices for our patients a couple of things we know and dialysis patients start 80% start with catheters bad okay and catheters bad if you get anything out of this lecture catheters bad about 28 to 53

percent failure to mature means they have a fistula it's physiologically working but it never matures to be able to use for hemodialysis time to maturation three to four months

interventions per year required angioplasty you know embolization you guys know all about this stuff trying to read Evert flow back into the main channel of the fishhook and patients about 30 up to 30

percent just refused once they have our fish to them for whatever reason they refused to have it cannulated you know they don't like the pain it's in an awkward position whatever but the idea of percutaneous

which was may actually put a big dent in that Kathy first-line initiating dialysis with catheters because many times these patients come then they need to houses right away they get a catheter but if we know you know these things

usually except you know for toxic injury like ingesting antifreeze and stuff like that most you know frolla just know these patients are headed towards dialysis well in advance of the time they need it and so these calls stage

four and stage renal disease these patients can get percutaneous fistulas and when it's time then they'll have a running blood access ready and totally avoid the need to have a catheter placed

and what's available the ellipsis device

which is a startup company still hasn't been bought by anyone it was developed by an interventional radiologist named Jeff hall if you know Jeff from Richmond Virginia and it's a totally ultrasound mediated placement it only requires one

puncture into a cephalic or a perforating vein and then you go from the vein into the artery and I'll talk about that in a moment then the everline the queue device now cold wave link wave linq device i was formerly a TV a

medical developed here in Austin Texas and recently bought by bard BD both devices were FDA approved over the summer and now this goes back the whole idea of what are we doing here what we're creating what we call a deep

fistula so and that was done in response to failing forearm fistulas the radius of Halleck fissures when they started to fail people would then jump to the upper arm and start creating brachial basilic

transposed basilic vanes already oh so phallic brachial cephalic fistulas in the upper arm and then here a guy by the name of Ken grass in Illinois it's called the grass fistula I think I'm saying that right developed a fish to

where he would hook the deep veins at the forearm to the brachial artery flow would then go from the brachial artery across the fistula up what's known as a perforating vein and that perforating vein selectively would go well

selectively perhaps unselect if we go to either the basilic or the cephalic or perhaps even both and here's a nice anatomic description I don't sorry I do not have a pointer I don't even have a keyboard but if you look there we'll

start up at 11 o'clock you can see there B and C basilic vein cephalic vein or labeled you see that P going straight down from the middle of the clock down to six o'clock that's the perforator okay we all know about perforators in

the legs if you do varicose veins because they're incompetent perforated up until six months ago I never even knew there was a perforating vein there one number two I defy anyone to try to find it in an anatomy book because it

just you know it doesn't I'll show you one picture of it but it's not exactly descriptive of what it does then basically they would take that and cut the perforating vein off of the deep venous system and attach it to the

brachial arteries you can see down there four o'clock so now you have flow from the brachial artery across the perforator and up into the superficial venous system and supplying the lead basilican the cephalic veins

kind of kind of a great idea and in fact they looked at these and they compared upper arm fistula swen maintenance of dialysis with deep fistulas and the the time to use of maturation was about the same about four months there was no

significant difference in outcome among the three types of fistulas brachial cephalic transposed rinky basilic and in fact since we have flow through both both of those veins you know it's may be

tempting to speculate that you can now use both of those things actually for hemodialysis and that's currently done many times two needles one needle and ability and the break in the basilic keeps me breaking

one needle in the basilic one needle in the cephalic and then you can alternate those needles so you don't have the problems of vein injury by frequent cannulation at the same spot well here's the one anatomic picture I ever found

with the perforating vein this is from the sobota Atlas which medical students know very well and you can see right in the middle there it says perforating vein and it's ducking down there below the fashion who knows where the hell

it's going but you don't know it from here and here you can see on ultrasound this is pretty much you know what it looks like that's the perforating vein and I guarantee whew go back and grab your ultrasound machine in your

departments and you all have to do is put it on color when you follow the basilic vein down or the and they'll meet the cephalic vein kind of a V and then just below that you'll see your perforator diving deep towards the

brachial artery alright and so now you'll all know where the action is going on and the you know since I think this procedure really is ideal for interventional radiologists I mean it really leverages everything that we do

you know ultrasound fluoroscopy multiple oblique angulations complex angulation is to position the device correctly I mean this procedure is really made for us so I suspect that some of your your attendings may want to begin a program

like this and if you cover the ORS and you're dealing with vascular surgeons or interventional nephrologist I'm sure they will probably want to get involved and so you know get ready guys here it comes so here is a obviously an

illustration of the the forum you can see there's the brachial artery going down take particular attention to the median nerve you can see this with ultrasound it's a very hyper echoic focal structure but when you're

puncturing that brachial artery load down at the elbow you want to make sure that they see the Brig a break heel and pardon me the median nerve because you can injure it if you put a five or six French sheet through it and that's one

of the potential complications of this procedure but as a radiologist we know ultrasound we can see it and we just have to do a complex needle I'm sure you know angling the ultrasound probe around it so he can get them to

the brachial artery then if you follow the cephalic Emily basilic vein down you can see they meet in the center median cubital vein and then the antecubital median antebrachial vein and then but they don't really show here is the

perforator but the point I wanted you to make it and to make you is them the median nerve is right in your target very often you don't want to tangle it now there's a lot of variation in the cue you know and whenever you get down

to anatomic structures this small which when you're doing these procedures you want to be aware of you can see that some people if you look all the way to the right type for there's no perforating vein and these people are

deemed to be anatomically unsuitable for this type of procedure you have to have a good quality and we'll talk about size usually about two two and a half millimeters perforating vein to get that blood from the brachial or radial or own

or artery up into the superficial system to a point where the fish so it can be cannulated but the anatomy here is variable and so you have to be aware that if you don't see it it just may not be there may just be you know a variant

tip Jennings down in Texas now the only person who knew about perforating veins was Bart - Oh max I talked to him the other day goes yeah I knew it because tip Jennings was doing all these deep fistulas down in Texas when he was down

there but tip is kind of when one of the proponents of deep fist shows why because when the proximal or the the distal radius of how a fistula fails the deep fistula can be made and still you don't have to tangle with the

superficial cephalic or basilic vein and also the deep fish avoids steel people don't steal blood when they have a deep fish to them and just because the the the size two or three millimeters of the perforator I think chronic keeps a check

on the blood flow that actually goes through trying to snip up the action

here a little bit okay the ellipsis device Avenue medical from California developed by Jeff Howe in Richmond ultrasound imaging only don't need

fluoroscopy everybody in the room like staff they'd off to where lid you advance the needle into the either the very distal cephalic vein or through the actual perforator under ultrasound and once you're there you

follow the tip of the needle keeping it in the center of the lumen of the vein under ultrasound guided down to the point where it's just adjacent to the radial artery and then once you're adjacent to the radial artery this may

take a little bit of torquing of the needle but you know even putting in PICC lines for what 15 years 20 years so it's nothing not more difficult than that which is you know why I tell the fellows do the PICC lines you're not doing the

PICC lines just to do pickle and you're doing them so you can do these kinds of procedures then you puncture the radial artery then you get arterial blood flow you put a wire down and you get a sheath down and you put the device down I'll

show you the device in just a second it's called tissue welding it's an electronic device that creates a anastomosis doesn't really succumb to any problems with vascular wall calcifications usually takes just 30 to

45 minutes I did the last one the other day in 15 minutes and angioplasty the anastomosis immediately following the creation of the fissure with a 5 millimeter 1/8 balloon of your choice here's the device you can see it opens

up there's like a little bit of a window there and so it goes down through the vein it crosses over into the artery you're able to see this under ultrasound you position that window as you see on the right with the artery and wall the

vein artery vein and artery walls between that space and then the debate the device closes down on them then the machine will give you a reading of what the distances you push to the button and you got a fistula and it's very pretty

straightforward then you go ahead and balloon that with a five millimeter balloon to make sure the anastomosis is open and running and that's it then you pull out and you can compress with one finger you know on the vein and here's a

look at the the anatomic and that's office Jilla that it does create you know you don't mobilize there's no surgical trauma patient goes home with a couple of band-aids here's a dissection with ultrasound of the area that you're

working in there on the right you can see the perforator coming down it's sitting over the PRA the right proximal radial artery and that's right where you're going to make your puncture from one vessel into the other and this is

what you're left with on the left of course you see a big surgical scar from a prior creation of probably in the brachiocephalic fistula and on the right you can see the very prominent cephalic vein after fish through the creation

which is getting ready to to be punctured here's the illustration of what you've just done again perforating vein going down towards the radial artery create the fish stool and now you have a brachial artery down radial

artery so you have a radial proximal radial perforating vein fistula I don't know whether it hopefully it goes up the cephalic vein if it goes up the basilic vein you may have to consider doing transpositions or elevation to get that

vein in a position of yeah so that it can't be punctured here's another ultrasound from one of our cases again showing a nice you know red to blue flow of the fistula here's another one you know I have to see these a while you say

wow it's really pretty amazing and what we do is we get velocity measurements at the time of the procedure one week later then at four weeks later and at four weeks if they're not flowing at least 500 to 600 cc's a minute then we'll go

in and do a secondary balloon or something to get things going there's that same patients actually this is our patients arm it's a different patient and you can see the flow map there and when you see that diastolic component

got halfway up the systolic that means you're flowing at about 600 500 to 600 cc's a minute it's a good indication that you've got a you've created a fistula with working potential if you have to re intervene it's a radial

puncture you go right up the the radial artery I'm sure your dad is familiar with doing that for the most part and that goes right across that and ask Tomo system so if you have to dilate the anastomosis to get a larger you're in

good position if you have to go up and redirect flow by embolization of small collaterals nor the brachial veins now you can do that all from the the radius it's nice highway right up into the fistula

and here's the results of the FDA trial

primary Africa cm point 86% matured remember what do we say before you know not what 96% so that's the answer to the surgeons why surgeon says why should I do this why don't I just create official

it takes me 20 minutes there's no surgeon in the world who can create a fistula that's gonna mature 86 percent of the time I don't that's not happening all right the endpoints were met secondary

endpoints to needle dialysis 88% I mean that just doesn't happen surgically I'm sorry and I'll show you some other data as well where the superiority of the percutaneous fistula over surgery this is the jvi are pivotal trial I with Jeff

Hall and tip Jennings and here's the match of the secondary maturation procedures that had to be done all right some get an estimate and we angioplasty the anastomosis embolization of branches an angioplasty Stan's oh okay

here's the bar device and this is called the ever linked queue back in these six French days and now wave link device there are two catheters one goes into the brachial artery one goes into a brachial vein there's a big magnets this

is the six wrench device and you can see that little connection I hope you can that's a foot foot plate a little electrode that pops up between the two catheters it actually creates the official of this time with a

radiofrequency energy on the right you see a brachial artery angiogram and the point of official creation with six ranch was the common on our branch which you can see down there below you have the big dense radial artery coming up on

top and then you see the common arm branch and then the proper ol arm going down there at four o'clock and then the interosseous in the middle now with the the four french device you can create fistulas from the

radial vein to radial artery or radial arterial vein owner artery to ulnar vein and either one gives you a little more options about where you want to create well why would you want options well if you go down to the video of vena Graham

in the and the ulna vein and you don't see any flow up the the perforator well you can only switch to the other side and to try to find better flow put yourself in a better position to create a working fistula this does use

ultrasound to puncture but then uses fluoroscopy to position the devices its RF energy has a little bit of a problem with heavily calcified vessels who's ever seen that and in dialysis patient right so and because radiofrequency

energy goes around calcium it doesn't go through we've had one case where we did there was just no fistula creation everything went finally since no fistula and so that patient got a surgical fistula multiple angles to confirm

correct position of the device this was with the six french device the four french device is much less cumbersome because you want to make sure that that footplate that I showed you sits directly in the receiver area to create

otherwise if you go off to the side left and right they you can have a problem with creating pseudoaneurysm some things no angioplasty then ask to most us however in this case you do embolize on the way out because you've entered the

brachial vein and you embolize form just to stop any losing and to because you want to help to redirect flow towards the superficial system here are the two devices on the left into the four frames versus the six

range quite a difference much more easy to work with the four french doesn't have a bulky handle on the end like the six ranch did they're pretty easy to position and it's a a round electrode not a foot that comes up and it kind of

sits in what they call the saddle you can see there where it says square magnets underfloor french there's a saddle there that that loop electrode sits in and very easy in there to position

who's a candidate well doctor Ross says

you know there's three things in fish the work it's you know info on flow conduit as he talks in flow so you have to have good employee got a good great good brachial artery gonna have good

outflow you want to have a basilica course italic or hopefully both you have to carry the blood away and then you have a good conduit in this case I'll call the condor with the perforator and you want to make sure that's wide open

good caliber stenotic and you know capable of handling the flow as you can see we have two creations tonight it's here on the radial side of the ulnar side gives you a little bit of choice and that's what

the slide shows as well notice as you can see there mrs. arterial access that's a little bit high I tend to access the brachial artery lower down over the condyle so I can compress it without any problems with creating a

hematoma these patients are heparinized they do get plavix before the procedure they're getting a 2 point 5 milligrams of rapa meal they're getting nitroglycerin so they're prevail vasodilate so you wanna make sure you

can compress that artery over the bone and that view higher if you action start brachial vein high you can see those bridges between the two brachial veins if you're in the wrong one you can always cross over that bridge with the

for French device and get into the other brachial vein which may get you into a better position to make a better fistula see the warning only the brachial artery should be used for material access well you know it's not because they had a

problem with the radial artery it's because of the FDA at this point just wants them to do brachial and they'll do a trial with a number of patients showing that even though all of us when doing a radial artery access for uterine

fibroids or chemo embolization or anything else you know the FDA says well no this is different okay it's different so they're gonna give make us to make them do a trial with radial artery for dialysis fistula

creation there's never been any problem and I suspect eventually we'll be doing radial artery and radial vain for fistula creation here is the must you see and what you can see here is the the tube maybe you can make it out for the

wires going down and I should hopefully this thing in the air there's a I'm so proud of myself in my age I can actually put movies in these presentations you know I figured it out and the way you're seeing these you're seeing flow from the

brachial artery down then whoosh coming back up the radial and via basilicum cephalic vein I'm sorry you can't hear the sound because it takes that shit it's a fistula I said yeah it really is it's a fistula and here's the study that

cut them approval it's a Charmaine lock and Dhiraj were John is an interventional radiologist both of them the Charmaine and nephrologist not an interventional in the FIR ologist but core storage is a interventional

radiologist up in Toronto and it's called the the neat trial it was done outside us a couple of the criticisms of the trial have been well you can see here there was no african-americans and the the BMI was pretty low 26 they get

you know nice arms down south where I am now the patients have arms sometimes the size of my thigh and so it gets a little bit more challenging as I'm sure you realize procedure outcomes for the wavelength for French device procedural

success 97 percent that means you create official a 97% of the time 3 percent serious adverse events six percent procedure related events no actually this is some of the SI either there you can see thrombi stenosis access false

aneurysm ball performance 85 percent right so there's no again 85 here and what we said 88 for the other device there's no surgeon in the world who can repeat that those numbers some secondary procedures with the point there was a

this is a study here by mark Lichtman and they looked at and Dhiraj they used the neat study data and they looked at a comparison on the propensity score look at the six times fewer post creation interventions with the endo fistula as

opposed to surgery so you know when a surgeon says well gee why you know why should I even think about doing this or why am I should I be doing this well you know this is a good reason for six time for your post creation interventions

okay so any rational person would say yeah okay expands the options as we said ulna radio also high low I think you're gonna see this is a very versatile technology it's important to communicate

with the clinic's their rights because

these fistulas are not the big ropey fistulas that we're all used to seeing they're very subtle you can feel them but they're very soft and in fact cannulating them is can be challenging and a lot of anxiety at the

allas unit this is a picture from Nick instan in the UK sometimes it takes two people one person to compress the the basilic vein so the other one can puncture it make sure you can see those two marks at this person they're using

two vein dialysis one needle in each cephalic one of the basilic vein and the other thing we don't see which may be important and it's come up eventually when we start getting into this a little bit that you don't create these mega

fistulas as we've seen a big fistulas with the flows in two thousand three thousand sometimes four thousand cc's a minute that puts a tremendous strain on these patients hearts you know you have a fistula with a low resi

CCS a minute these really never get up above 650 or 700 that we can see and they don't steal which is goes back to the original creation of the grass fistula why was it so effective because

there was no steel that's the success of

fish through creation one is screening with ultrasound you really have to be able to look at these patients and I'm you know when I talk to our physicians they say we have a great

ultrasonographer named Megan and so I say the first thing you need to get yourself a meg everybody needs a meg and May because meg knows what to look for what to look for what's a measure where to get flows and she submits that to us

now other than the anatomic part you know at our place you know we're very particular about and selected we try to be thoughtful about you know who gets what access and that's what the new dokey guidelines are gonna say you know

the best access for the right person at the right time so for example you know if you come in with a catheter and we can you know we'd won from a 275 mile radius people come to us you know for access because you know they they've

they've been given up the cases have been given up by local people and you've got a catheter my first thing I say is how long is the catheter been in and they said well catheters been in for eight months you're not getting a

percutaneous fistula if your catheters been in for eight months I'm gonna call one of the surgeons think I am with part of my group you know we have no competition there's no turf wars we're all friends we like each other we like

working together it's a great place I say Karl Karl Willy who was recently from Tampa - Karl illustration - sick catheter for six months is okay I'm going to create they put a flick seen graphed in the

upper arm probably with a suture listen a stenosis and pull the catheter tomorrow that patient's going to be dilating with a graph where the dialyzer will be graphed you know because after six months you don't want a cath over

there when you start going down that road of infection endocarditis vascular damage all that kind of stuff if you come in and you started with a catheter because somebody wasn't looking ahead far enough and you got a catheter and

they come here for accents placement catheters been in for you know two weeks three weeks one month there's a good chance you're gonna be seriously mapped for a percutaneous special because now we have time we've got we arbitrarily

have considered the six months window that we can probably work with the catheter there's nothing to prove that there's nothing in the literature in fact I had a discussion last night with someone from one of the companies who

wants to do some type of a trial to look and see when can these catheters really do go bad and so you're gonna get worked up for a percutaneous fish and clearly if you come with stage four you know know you're not on dialysis they don't

know when you're gonna go into Alice's but they you know you're going in that direction you're gonna get seriously worked up for a percutaneous fistula one patients are still psychologically trying to wrap their head around the

fact that they're going to be on dialysis it's much easier to tell them you come in you're gonna get a puncture two punctures you're gonna go home with a band-aid and we'll take care of this we'll get this up and running over the

next six weeks eight weeks ten weeks and when you need it it's gonna be ready to go and you won't need a catheter then we tell them you don't not gonna need this catheter sticking out of your neck they're very happy and they usually

agree to do the percutaneous miss doula also since you don't get those big ropey fish - as I talked about when these patients are in dialysis you know how many people ever been to a dialysis unit that's how I tell physicians you want to

you know you want to look build a practice like this go to the dialysis unit talk to the charge charge nurse do rounds once a month or once every couple of weeks with a nephrologist and that's how you build the practice but these

patients they're in the chairs they're talking to each other right and they say hey how come you don't look like a cling-on you know with this big veins you know you where's your fistula and then they want that you know they it's

really cosmetically very pleasing these patients are so deserving and they have such horrible I was being tied to that machine three days a week so any little bit of hope we can give them I think is is worth it alright in summary it's not

a one-step procedure and then we try to make patients understand this you may need a secondary angioplasty or embolization in the future hopefully not usually about 30% of the time has great value in the stage Forge so we

talked about more acceptable to patients coming to grips with their future may make a significant difference with the catheter people starting with a catheter and I think whoever is going to do this really has to have a commitment to

access this is not you're not doing a procedure you're actually developing a treatment plan or a treatment system and so then these patients are yours once you do this you're following them you're keeping them working you know how do you

sell this to the surgeon you sell to the surgeons this way because if you start this program you know people are gonna start coming to you they're gonna come out of the woodwork it's like if we start doing AVM stuff that they start to

come from nowhere and you're gonna draw so many patients the in that surgeons are going to have more work and there's no question because everybody's not going to be a candidate and so I mean when bobwhite if hopkins years ago

started doing angioplasty the business of surgery increased by 15% so you're gonna see you're gonna make the pie bigger that's how you sell it you're making the pie bigger and everybody can feast on the pie leverages our expertise

as interventional radiologists and image guided procedure list to make these procedures work I think we're in a great position a really great position if you listen to Alan Matsumoto the other day at the toddler lecture we're in a great

position for the new age of medicine and it may be the ideal procedure for multidisciplinary collaboration I can't do basilic vein transpositions or elevations or brachial vein elevations so it's good to have a surgeon that

you're friendly with that will make these things happen they're all part of the group that's necessary and I think that could be it yes ah I'm from New York and I'm a shameless marketer and so I would encourage you if you're

interested or some of your attendings or interests come to the vasa practicum it's gonna be done in Houston with dr. Eric Pete and chief of vascular surgery is running the meeting you get to put your hands on all these devices and put

and stuff you can all do it I mean it doesn't have to be doctors you have big models and they'll have live cases and it's a great opportunity in 2020 since I'm the president-elect of Vassar we're gonna run the meeting in

Charleston that's gonna be held out a hell of a lot of fun so we encourage you to come to Charleston in 2020 thank you very much not questions yeah

go ahead your first Carolyn we bring paces back at one week and then three

weeks after the initial procedure apartment four weeks after the initial procedure we use percutaneous I'll just regular color assisted toppler and do a velocity measurement that way okay and at four weeks if they're not

pumping out in brachial artery brachial artery at six hundred CCS a minute I'm probably gonna do an intervention of some sort I'm gonna go in there with a balloon or I just see what's the problem and so then this is what catch no Jeff

holes doing in Richmond you know he calls to the the map rapid maturation program yes asked about the sedation so all of our patients currently are getting supraclavicular blocks nerve lux now we

have a luxury in our place anesthesia is there for every case whether it's a declawed or a catheter placement with a anesthesia is there so one it you know basically you block the arm they can't feel anything they get

moderate sedation for anxiety during the procedure the block also creates significant vasodilation particularly the venous side so it really gives you a bigger vein to manipulate and particularly on the ellipses side when

you're going in with that needle and working its way down towards the radial artery so the answer is yes block plus plus moderate sedation you know Bartow match does his own we would get into trouble if we started

doing our own blocks because we're we're a hospital based outpatient facility you got I don't want to get credential to do nerve blocks but a lot of people in out patient for their private centers do their own nerve blocks you got to send

them home in a sling because it's not just sensory it's motor as well so they want people to use their arm anywhere from three to eight hours until it wears off yes be beware beware of a tech with a list okay do you believe that

percutaneous fistula creation will become primary to surgical creation I think it's going to be again if you think back to what I talked about who comes for what I think it's going to be probably at least 50 to 60 percent okay

once we really get good on this and it just seems like the right thing to do the better results do you are percutaneous fistula creations are they still susceptible to pseudoaneurysm well the answer is we don't know it's a

little bit early if you look at the data from the trials there was one pseudoaneurysm created during the creation of one of the wavelength fishless and that was probably because that

footplate wasn't really aligned well between the two devices will that be pseudoaneurysm with the puncture sites interesting thought I don't think we've been out there long enough yet - no but the vein is the vein and I think if

you're puncturing it in the same place then there's a good chance that they may occur yes exactly exactly and you've got you know very often you can have a choice you're gonna have one needle maybe in each vein and so you'll have an

opportunity to rotate things and then just for clarification I missed what vessel do you imbel eyes on the way out with the bard system we embolized you enter the brachial vein and you embolize the brachial vein on the way

out all right the same vessel that you entered so you want to make sure you have enough purchased so when you pull things back you know your sheath is still in the brachial vein and then you usually down with the Berenstain

catheter and you drop you know is their commercial bias okay here's my bias I happen to like the Boston Scientific soils the detachable coils because I can put them pretty much wherever I want and they coil and they're very thrombogenic

doesn't mean any other coil in the world wouldn't work I think barn asked you to stock up on some nester coil some cook nesters I mean we use nesters in you know and pulmonary AVMs back at Yale I just like something down there that I

can retrieve if I if it's going in the wrong place you want to make sure you're above the perforator so you don't obviously embolize the vessel that you're trying to promote so I just happen to like that if it's there still

flow I might drop a nester on top of a boss interlock coil but that's my way of doing it so forgive me for the endorsement do you have a preference between the two systems well I haven't open the answer is no and and for a

number of reasons one I say I'm a test pilot I'm not a salesman for either company I'm just testing these things to have to see how it's going to the world go because we're so well known down there in Orangeburg if I said you know

we prefer this that would have tremendous economic repercussions across the country you know because oh well Ross upriver improvers you know ellipses and so we're gonna get ellipses so we don't get into

those discussions I think there's gonna be room as the pie grows as I said part for both of these devices to do very well and so I have no preference maybe if I had to differentiate if I saw something with heavily calcified

arteries I might go ahead and do an ellipses which has no problem with calcifications and stay away from the the bar device thank you okay thank you

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